Ice Ledge and Bottomless Chasm

[wallydubbs]

It just occurred to me, another possible save or at least Protection from going over the edge: Wall of Stone from the Spells of Protection from Wizards of Morcar. The Wizard could build a wall of stone along the ledge beforehand, so if any hero slips, they couldn't roll of the ledge.

In Frozen Horror I'd usually use that spell to prevent an Ice Gremlin from running away with an item, but in this case it could actually save a life.

[Jalapenotrellis]

I've always wondered what others use the wall spells for. Never thought of this

[Daedalus]

If you include the elf spells, you can also flashback a dead character back into life. That one's probably needed at least for the part where the heroes cross the ledge twice.

I am still thinking about this, because I hate of instant death stuff.
Even the less dangerous falling block traps behind doors are somewhat no-no for me (and you decide yourself if you step in or out when it comes down).


So for the ice ledge, I think there must be a solution somehow.

IT'S A TRAP!

Like a trap, only Heroes, not monsters, need to check for a slip on the ice ledge. In particular, the square just inside the door resembles a pit trap that can't be searched for and is sprung when the room is entered.

Another way to give resourceful Heroes (and their mercenaries) a chance to mitigate these death-trap rooms could be to allow an icy square to be disarmed as a trap. Since a square must moved onto to disarm it, that Hero must still roll for slipping (unless he is wearing Snowshoes of Speed.) If successfully disarmed, a Hero entering the room on that square can now be considered safe from slipping. A failure forces slip checks as normal, even if Snowshoes of Speed are worn. (Special Quest note effect trumps Artifact Card.)

Should the first square inside the door be disarmed, those following needn't make the roll upon entering. Thus, a successful move roll (Hero) or move (Mercenary) gets a figure through safely. If the roll or move isn't enough, move the figure anyway and roll a combat die for slipping as usual. I'd recommend just one disarm attempt for the whole room, but a kinder Zargon could allow farther icy squares to be disarmed, creating an even safer way.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I will take the original two sub-topics and raise it to three, bottomless chasm, slippery ice and ice ledge

Firstly the bottomless chasm, this seems simple enough to me, you can jump it like a pit, failure means you fall in and are lost forever. I already have a chasm in my own house rules (ported from AHQ) and naturally I prefer those rules but essentially whether using either the official or my own house rules this seems straight-forward enough.

Original Rules
Note: original HeroQuest rules allow you to jump a single-square trap, or at least a single-square that was suspicious and may contain a trap, it also possibly allowed you to jump any square, and to jump single-square pits. In later expansions, this was extended out to double-square pits / chasms and possible even double ‘suspected’ squares, possibly any two squares. HeroQuest Gold rules allow you to jump a pit or chasm only.

• You must have sufficient squares of movement remaining to move across the obstacle and onto an unoccupied adjacent square beyond.
• You must roll anything but a skull on a single combat die to jump the trap

HeroQuest Gold

You may need to cross over squares containing pits and chasms, to do so you need to attempt to jump the obstacle.
• You must have sufficient squares of movement remaining to move across the obstacle and onto an unoccupied adjacent square beyond.
• For a single-square wide obstacle, then you must roll a single red die, if you score 3 or more you have successfully jumped the obstacle, place your figure on the other side, expending two moves. If you have any moves remaining from your dice roll, you may then continue your move. If less than 3 is rolled, you have failed the jump and suffer any consequences. For example, for a standard single-square wide pit, failure to successfully jump the pit result in you suffering two combat dice of damage without the opportunity to defend and your turn ends with you in the pit where you fell.
• For a double-square wide obstacle, then you must roll a single red die, if you score 5 or more you have successfully jumped the obstacle, place your figure on the other side, expending three moves. If you have any moves remaining from your dice roll, you may then continue your move. If you roll 1-2 then you fail your jump and land on the first square, suffering the consequences, if you roll 3-4 then you fail your jump and land on the second square and suffer the consequences. For example, for a standard double-square wide pit, failure to successfully jump the pit results in you suffering two combat dice of damage without the opportunity to defend and your turn ends with you in the pit where you fell.

Note: “Bottomless Pits or Chasms” - if the pit or chasm is described as bottomless or failure to jump it results in instant death for any other reason, then a special rule applies. If you fail to jump the gap successfully, you only fall to your death if you roll a 1 on a single-square gap or 1-2 on a double-square gap, otherwise you hit the far wall of the chasm or pit causing 2AD of damage with no defence but you manage to hang onto the edge and pull yourself out onto the far side. This ends your turn.

However the original post was on whether you can search in this room, my first instinct was ‘of course, why not’ but then it clicked. There are monsters on both sides of the chasm so you can’t search until they are all dead. Once they are all dead then you are either on one side or the other so how could you search the whole room without jumping the chasm. If you jump the chasm first, then search, you have just reversed the same problem. However this is a logical problem and in keeping with HeroQuest’s simplicity I would suggest that you either;

1. Allow a Hero to search the whole room from either side (and pretend the chasm isn’t there for search purposes)
2. Count each side of the chasm counts a whole room for the purposes of searching (the potential for instant death should come with some benefit)?
3. State that the room cannot be searched.

[SirRick]

I didn’t realize the chasms were so dangerous. I always assumed a hero could try and jump them for tactical reasons, but there was a good chance to fall to your death, or if an enemy caster casts Command on a hero and forces them to fling themselves into the crevice.

The confusion exists because the instructions at the beginning of the book for the Ice Ledge only mention the heroes should be careful or they will fall to their death. No mechanics are mentioned until you are in the quest where the ledge appears. It would make more sense if these instructions were shown at the beginning of the book instead of referring to an earlier quest for the rules.

It’s definitely a really cheap mechanic, because it could take a hero multiple turns to move through the room, with the threat of instant death each time. Also what happens if multiple heroes get stuck on the same space?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

And now for part 2: slippery ice and ice ledge

I agree that as the ice ledge appears in more than one Quest in this pack then the full rules should be included in the Introduction, rather than in the first Quest and then pointed back to in subsequent quests

Slippery Ice Rules

Do not place a slippery ice tile on the gameboard until a Hero steps onto the appropriate square.
Whenever a Hero moves onto a slippery ice square, the Hero rolls 1 combat die. If a white shield is rolled, the Hero falls and his turn ends immediately. Any other roll means the Hero can continue moving (if he has moves left).
The Hero must roll for each slippery ice tile moved onto.
A fallen Hero cannot take any actions or defend against attacks until his next turn.
Monsters are not affected by slippery ice.
A slippery ice tile cannot be found by searching, nor can it be disarmed.
Once it is placed on the gameboard, it can be jumped over like a pit.

A few thoughts…

Much as I love the combat dice I do find their use for this kind of test a pain as it always taxes my memory trying to remember the combinations for passing the various tests, like these below…to name a few, so I use a red die, with a target figure test instead, given in brackets below!
• disarming a trap (Dwarf) needs skulls or white shields [2+]*
• ice ledge (covered below) needs skulls or white shields [2+]
• slippery ice needs skulls or black shields [3+]
• jumping a pit needs black or white shields[4+]
• disarming a trap (tool kit) needs black or white shields [4+]*
(*My rules allow anyone to disarm a trap on 5+ with a +1 for the Toolkit and +2 for the Dwarf (+1 for both))

The first time that any Hero steps on this square he has a 4/6 chance of passing the test and continuing his movement unaffected. Any subsequent Hero (or even the same one again) now knowing that the Hazard exists, still gets the same 4/6 chance of passing the test, bearing in mind this feature states that it cannot be disarmed, shouldn’t the first hero automatically fail and subsequent ones get to roll, as per a pit trap that couldn’t be disarmed?

Once the square has been discovered, you get the option to attempt to jump the dodgy square, as if it were a pit. The odds of passing a pit jump test is 3/6 so this seems a strange option. If you attempt to jump and fail do you end up on your ass automatically, you would think so, so opting to jump the square reduces your odds of success – a standard pass being 4/6? Or do does it mean you may attempt to jump it as a pit and if you fail you have to roll the standard check to see if you slip, so you would have to fail the jump AND the slip 3/6 AND 2/6?

Compare this to a pit trap, you MAY get a chance to disarm the trap, but if you don’t you fall in automatically, but the pit itself for any subsequent Hero is not hidden and you got the option to jump it, failure results in falling in.

Why can a fallen hero not defend himself, armour still works, he can defend himself if he has fallen into a pit which must logically be a further fall then just to the ground, with one less DD but not if he has fallen onto the ground, wouldn’t this be better as defends with one less dice?

If a Hero that fails, falls and that ends his turn, then the line “A fallen Hero cannot take any actions or defend against attacks until his next turn. ” isn’t needed, apart from the defend piece.

If a Hero fails the roll and ends up on his backside then I think that square should be considered impassable until his next turn, to avoid having to handle multiple Heroes occupying the same square but this means Heroes queuing up and significantly increasing the risk again...

Ice Ledge Rules

Quest 4 - Note E - The ice ledge that surrounds the crevasse is very slippery. When a Hero steps through a door and moves onto his first square in this room, he must roll 1 combat die. The hero is safe and can continue moving if a skull or white shield is rolled. If a black shield is rolled, however the Hero begins slipping into the crevasse, suffering 1 Body Point of damage. The Hero must immediately roll another combat die. If another black shield is rolled, the Hero plummets into the crevasse, never to be seen again. Any other roll means the Hero returns to the square in which he entered the room, ending his turn. At the beginning of any turn in which a Hero is in this room, he must first roll to see if he slips into the crevasse.

Why test upon entry and then at the start of each turn? I get the start of the turn, this is as per slippery ice, you step onto it and test (although the test is passed on a skull or white shield 5/6 rather than slippery ice’s skull or black shield 4/6), but generally in HQ the ‘test at the start of each turn if in the room’ logic is applied where effects are duration-based such as localised heat or cold damage effects (chill room, forge room) the longer you stay the more you suffer, but that does apply here (or slippery ice) once you have stepped onto a square and survived, you could presumably if you wanted to remain safely on that square forever and shouldn’t need to test again.

Why does slipping onto your ass cause a lost BP here but not with slippery ice, isn’t the threat of permanent death sufficient?

“Any other roll means the Hero returns to the square in which he entered the room, ending his turn.” – sort of makes sense for the first roll when entering the room (although why does he ‘return’ he never left) but does this mean that if the hero is on another square in the room at the start of his turn, he has to go back to the square that he entered the room from? Surely not. He stays on the square unless he falls into the crevasse, reword needed.

There are monsters in this room, everywhere that it appears, so Heroes would have to fight in these conditions, forcing them to roll again to risk the crevasse for every monster (move-attack, end turn, roll again on new turn)

Perhaps this effect, should only be on the first square in the room (either door depending on which way you enter)?

If the room is run, as written, then I would suggest that no one in their right mind would hang around a search the room, but then again they might if they have neutralised the peril or are immune to it for some reason, so I guess searching must be permitted but would need at least one more ‘risk roll’ if applicable

Snowshoes of speed – cancel out the effects of slippery ice, but not the slippery ice ledge, why not?

[Kurgan]

I had this funny image of the Dwarf from the EU HeroQuest encountering the bottomless chasm and ledge, "Fixing" it with his disarm ability and making the entire thing vanish into a normal room. (all in a day's work! slaps dust off his hands in satisfaction)

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I suspect that kind of work would be preceded with a "sharp intake of breath" followed by a steep quote, after all the Dwarf is a tradesman!