HeroQuest lost Quest Packs: Wizard and Dwarf Quest Pack

[HispaZargon]

Thank you so much Luca & lestodante for the last shared info, here are some of my thoughts about the Spells topic, of course they are just opinions:

First of all, after reading all the previous posts I would summarize/clarify the following:

- I have understood that each one of the four magical element decks would have a total of 8 spells, 3 from the basic game, 3 from the WQP and 2 from the DQP, right? If yes, this means having 5x8 = 40 spell cards in total for the good guys including the Elf Spells deck from EQP.

- Additionally, I have understood that the WQP will allow the Wizard to chose new spells from element decks but he is only able to take 3 spells maximum from each magical element deck, the same as per Game System rules, so this rule is unaltered, right? If yes, for consistency I guess the rest of the Game System rules about this topic also apply unaltered for the Elf, which would mean that the Elf will also be able to chose the new spells from WQP but only from the elemental deck not selected by the Wizard... is correct? For me that makes sense from designers point of view... probably could be people who would like to mix freely spells from different decks but I think puting restrictions to do that justifies the existance of different element decks...

One thing I don't like here (and I would like to change): almost all the 4 set of new spells in the Wizard Quest Pack has a Dispell (or Dispel) card. So there are 4 Dispell, each in a different group.
I'd prefer to leave only one of them or at east two (but with slight difference) and change the others with brand new ones.

Well... I guess the main problem with dispel spells is that heroes don't usually fight against very powerful wizards, so those spells could not be too useful... However, assuming each element deck will have 8 spells, I think there are enough number of spells and diversity to have 1 dispel card per element deck... If I am right, the Wizard will be able to take only 3 spells from each deck so I honestly do not see a big problem on that, even it makes sense easing the Wizard to take a dispel card regardless the element deck's slot he has 'available' in order to sacrify it for such purpose. Moreover, in Warhammer battles, the most used spell is probably the dispel one since it is the cheapest one in terms of magic knowledge and magic energy (mana...), so again, easing such selection I think goes in the right way. Another option that could be done if DQP allows it is distributing them through the WQP and DQP, for example we would include three of the dispel cards in WQP and the remaining one in the DQP, of course in the remaining element deck. Or maybe 2 dispel cards in each questpack.

FIRE SPELLS:
Healing Flames*
Wall of Flame**
Lighting Bolt

About this... I don't like the idea of considering the Lightning Bolt as a Fire Spell... I think fits better as an Air Spell, after all, lightning bolts are created inside the storms, isn't it? Moreover the Legacy of Sorasil manual clasified such spell as an Air Spell. I think this was not too thought by designers and it would be changed if posible... but I don't know if there is more info available about it. Maybe it should be switched with dispel spell from the Air deck...

Note that you have 4 plastic stands included on the Wizards runner. These are used hold the walls of flame/ice/stone.

It is interesting since they would sure have four stands available in the runner but apparently, the only spell in the list that would use one is the Wall of Flame... Would they planned to use the remaining three bases for other purposes like special doors or even new furniture with new cardboard parts? Anyway, the WoM expansion only used 3 of the available four so maybe, US designers decided to do something similar and not use the remaining three.

We also have a few cards from the first draft of the DQP, including the 8 spells (name and text) as they were originally designed.

Wow...

As Luca sayd:

It seems the limit is still at 9, but there’s an object that allows you to keep an extra 3 or 4 you can use, albeit you cannot move in the turn you cast a spell from there.

i can add, in the first draft there were 2 of this artifact (of the same type), so 6 more spells, then one was deleted and only one left.
So it's 9 standard spells, plus 3 additional spell, plus one in the Spell ring (if the weizard owns it) and scrolls eventually.

I think these are good news... It seems the Wizard will have a way to be more powerful as usual, by means of new artifacts which allows him casting more spells, but if I am right, at the same time the Game System original rules for spells selection seems to have not been hardly modified by the WQP, only new spells and artifacts will be available for the Wizard & Elf. This allows a balanced combination between different questpacks from magic use point of view. If so different rules for magic were included in WQP their compatibility with other questpacks would be compromised if such Wizard character would later play other questpacks. This was sure considered by designers, since I think they were guided in such way attending to the instructions they received.

[HispaZargon]

... and here my thoughts about WQP's Potions available info:

POTIONS from the Alchemist's Shop in the Wizard Quest Pack is here.

Wow... very interesting picture! Despite the potion details I see something really important there which is the following sentence, extracted from the picture:

"This Quest Pack and the other three Hero-based Quest Packs (Elf, Dwarf, and Barbarian) each add different potions to the Alchemist's Shop. When a Hero visits the Alchemist's Shop, he may buy any potion found in any Quest Pack you own."

This sentence clarifies something that, as far as I know, was never written in any released HeroQuest official document before... Moreover, I mentioned it some days ago as another posible misprint in the remake's rule book (post here) since nowhere is clarified if Alchemist's Shops from diffeerent questbooks can be combined or not, but according to this sentence, now I think we can officially assume for the first time that they can. I always thought it was clearly the intention of the game designers but unfortunately they never explained it in the questbooks. Really good news...


Potion of Recall (500 gold coins, price marked in red, I guess it corresponds to last revision from designers):

I noticed the first one, Potion of recall, is the same one included in the Elf Quest Pack, but here it costs an additional 100 gold coins and can be used by both the Wizard and the Elf.
The Elf will surely buy his own potion for a lower price. The Wizard is forced to buy this one with the only advantage he can pass it to the Elf when required. So the Elf takes an advantage on the Wizard here, I am not sure I like this.

Good catch... I don't like it too... Maybe we would consider the EQP potion's price as the correct one but merging both potions in only one potion type without any restriction for the Elf nor the Wizard... just an idea, after all, EQP prices are official and WQP would at least be considered as a draft, isn't it? However, well, it is something that probably needs further discussion, of course. Another option would be to make this an exclusive but expensive potion for the Wizard allowing him to recall 2 spells instead of only one like the Elf but of course it would be an invention at this moment.

We also have another problem with Potion of Recall... if we compare its cost with the cost of remake's Prophecy of Telor's 3-spell Potion of Magic (400 gold coins too) it would be excessive for only 1 spell... Additionaly, as I explained in this post the POT's Potion of Magic I also think is so cheap compared to others... of course this mesh is an off-topic discussion since I guess we are here trying to bring to life what 90's designers had in mind, without any 2021 remake... but I would like to point it too (according to my calculations, I suggests 250 gold coins as a more correct homebrew price for EQP's Potion of Recall attending to how I would change the remake's Potion of Magic price to 750 gold coins).

Potion of Recovery (600 gold coins, price marked in red, I guess it corresponds to last revision from designers):
Well... there are not too many other similar official potions to compare, but the feeling I have is that restoring Mind Points would be more expensive than restoring Body Points in terms of gold coins, so I think the price in red colour is better than the black written one (200 gold coins)... however, maybe per 2 Mind Points 600 gold coins is too expensive attending to EQP potions or too cheap attending to remake's potions... the only official existing ones which restore Mind Points are Potions of Restoration from EQP (800 gold coins, restores all BP, all MP and heals werewolf curse), from KK & ROTWL (500 gold coins, restores 1 BP and 1 MP) and from remake's TCOPD (unknown price, restores 4 BP and 1 MP). Something sure to further discussion but of course the comparison I think must be done without the remake's potions for same reasons as I mentioned in Potion of Recall.

Potion of Teleportation (400 gold coins, price marked in red, I guess it corresponds to last revision from designers):
The best thing of this potion is that the Wizard could easily escape if he is in trouble. I seems so powerful, but I think he would not go too far since escaping distance is limited to his line of sight... I fhe is inside a room, he would usually could go 5 or 6 squares far but no more. If we compare its price with the gold price of EQP's Potion of Speed (500 gold coins, 12 squares movemnt, +1 attack, effects until damage, only Elf) I think 400 gold coins is too expensive, maybe the original 300 gold coins price would be more correct I think, or even less.

Potion of Clairvoyance (300 gold coins, price marked in red, I guess it corresponds to last revision from designers):
Not much to say since it is a fully new potion... its effects complement a little bit the ones provided by Potion of Vision from EQP (500 gold coins, allow detection of traps until damage, only Elf). I think the price of 300 gold coins is ok.

[therealshrek]

"This Quest Pack and the other three Hero-based Quest Packs (Elf, Dwarf, and Barbarian) each add different potions to the Alchemist's Shop. When a Hero visits the Alchemist's Shop, he may buy any potion found in any Quest Pack you own."

This sentence clarifies something that, as far as I know, was never written in any released HeroQuest document before... Moreover, I mentioned it some days ago as another posible misprint from the remake's rule book (post here) since nowhere is clarified if Alchemist's Shops from different questbooks can be combined, but according to this sentence, now I think we can officially assume for the first time that they can. I always thought it was clearly the intention of the game designers but unfortunately they never explained it in the questbooks. Really good news...

I just wanted to clarify that this was already established in both the Elf and Barbarian Quest packs.
Bottom right side of the "Alchemy Shop" on inside of cover for both expansions:

Three of the above potions can be used only by the (Barbarian or Elf depending on expansion). Different potions may also be purchased from the Alchemist's Shop in other Quest Packs

And I think this also sets a precedent for the Wizard and Dwarf packs. Three of their four potions should be specific , with only one potion for all heroes.
The Elf pack had the Potion of restoration 800 gold restores all body and mind.
The Barbarian pack had the Potion of rejuvenation 500 gold which restored up to 6 body.
I think the Wizard pack should have one that simply restores all Mind points
Dwarf pack could be a potion that restores all Body points.

Another thing this brings up is the fact that both Kellars Keep and the Witch Lord expansions had a
Potion of Restoration 500 gold that restored only 1 body and 1 mind. Same name as the one in the Elf pack, but not the same affect.
Although these could be simply considered Minor and Major potions of restoration to get rid of the confusion.

[HispaZargon]

I just wanted to clarify that this was already established in both the Elf and Barbarian Quest packs.
Bottom right side of the "Alchemy Shop" on inside of cover for both expansions:

Three of the above potions can be used only by the (Barbarian or Elf depending on expansion). Different potions may also be purchased from the Alchemist's Shop in other Quest Packs

Thanks, of course you are right. I missed those two questpacks, very good! Then, nothing to comment and related post edited accordingly...

[therealshrek]

haha, no problem, still good info , I just wanted to clarify that we definitely can purchase any potion
I dont have a good computer so cant help much with actually producing quest maps, or art, etc.
But Ive collected since it was all orginally released and am fortuante to have everything for Heroquest, Advanced Heroquest, and Warhammer Quest, including all the white dwarf magazines.
So hopefully, I can help by being an information Kiosk..

[lestodante]

We have to consider the 4 questpacks were assigned to their designers at the same time. Two of them probably ended their job before the other two so they went published.
The red corrections are the revisions from the reviewer; he then sent its reviewed version to Mike Grey who could apply more changes. So the sentence "This Quest Pack and the other three Hero-based Quest Packs (Elf, Dwarf, and Barbarian) each add different potions to the Alchemist's Shop. When a Hero visits the Alchemist's Shop, he may buy any potion found in any Quest Pack you own." would have been also changed in the Wizard and Dwarf Quest Pack as we read on the BQP and EQP. We don't have the final version with the final decisions taken by Mike Grey and other Hasbro staff in charge.
On another note I've recently noticed there was a correction on the spell list and the reviewer on his own draft deleted one of the Dispell (good choice according to me) to be changed with Strands of Binding from WoM. So we will have 2 Dispell and not 3 as I wrote before. Also Red Fog was probably intended to be changed for Future Sight from WoM. Also if their intention was to NOT publish andy duplicate card we should consider to eliminate the Chaos Dispell card as it is already existing in the EQP.
As for the potion of recall (Wizard's version), I had an idea about rising its price more but allowing to recover two spells, instead of one.
A Magical Throwing Dagger is also included in the artifacts list but I think is another thing that could be revised and changed for something better as the MTDaggers already appear in previous questpacks.
Lightining Bolt as a Fire Spell also is not good for me, would fit better in the Air group and the Dispell from Air can fit in the Fire group instead.
If we drop a couple of cards I would like to implement the "Wandering Apprentice" card, we have an extra female wizard that can fit the role and also the Zanrath figure is used as an NPC and could also be used as an ally. Not that I want to change too much from the original, this stuff was suggested in the reviewer's notes.
Going back to the spells, seems all Zanrath's spell were recycled: Dispell, Strands of Binding, Wall of Flame were going to be re-used for the WQP as Hero spells while Escape, Madness (same of Command) and Rust are Chaos Spell already used in the Game-System.
I'd like to not plunder the WoM questpack of almost ALL of its content. I know it is a questpack that requires a better quest editing and a better story, it's still full of bugs, but I would prefer to take things as many different as possible beetween the WoM and the WQP whenever this will be possible.

[HispaZargon]

We have to consider the 4 questpacks were assigned to their designers at the same time. Two of them probably ended their job before the other two so they went published.
The red corrections are the revisions from the reviewer; he then sent its reviewed version to Mike Grey who could apply more changes. So the sentence "This Quest Pack and the other three Hero-based Quest Packs (Elf, Dwarf, and Barbarian) each add different potions to the Alchemist's Shop. When a Hero visits the Alchemist's Shop, he may buy any potion found in any Quest Pack you own." would have been also changed in the Wizard and Dwarf Quest Pack as we read on the BQP and EQP. We don't have the final version with the final decisions taken by Mike Grey and other Hasbro staff in charge.

Yeah, if we check the EQP and BQP it seems that such sentence would had been compressed during final review stage.

On another note I've recently noticed there was a correction on the spell list and the reviewer on his own draft deleted one of the Dispell (good choice according to me) to be changed with Strands of Binding from WoM. So we will have 2 Dispell and not 3 as I wrote before. Also Red Fog was probably intended to be changed for Future Sight from WoM. Also if their intention was to NOT publish andy duplicate card we should consider to eliminate the Chaos Dispell card as it is already existing in the EQP.

Ok, such draft last minute changes I think mostly go in the right way... however, I am thinking about the Dispell Chaos spell... do we have any information from the quest notes of which spells would cast each one of the evil sorcerers? I think a spell of Dispell would make sense to be used by evil wizards in WQP, so elimiating it from the list just because it is included in EQP I am not sure if it would be a strong enough reason. After all, those evil guys will have to face a better trained Wizard than any other quespack do, and according to the available documents some of them are suposed to be really powerful mages, so they would need to be well protected... Of course I respect the non-repeat-spell criterion, maybe we could show compliance with that by including a similar spell but with some slightly diferences to the one included in EQP? Just a fixing idea, nevertheless I think duplicating such card in WQP would not be a major problem if the original designers already had it in Mind. As far as I know, the designers followed the rules they received but not all of them in an strict way... for example they had the guideline of include the hero name in the title of the expansion and they finally did not included it for the Elf nor the Barbarian... I think we should follow the rules as more accurate as posible of course but real designers did not always respected all of them and probably some of the design principles also changed a bit through time. Moreover, imagine EQP designer took the idea of the dispel spell to be used in his questpack from the WQP one once they had clear the second questpack was not going to be never published... If we could investigate the origin of dispel chaos spell during the EQP designing procedure, we will probably make a better decission about this. Was the dispel always included in the EQP designers list or only in the final version? I hope such info could be found somewhere.

As for the potion of recall (Wizard's version), I had an idea about rising its price more but allowing to recover two spells, instead of one.

Yeah, I think 2 spells makes a real difference there between Wizard and Elf.

A Magical Throwing Dagger is also included in the artifacts list but I think is another thing that could be revised and changed for something better as the MTDaggers already appear in previous questpacks.

Interesting... no other hero-based quespack rewarded the heroes with any Magical Thowing Dagger but they considered to include it in this questpack... maybe because daggers are one of the few weapons the Wizard is allowed to use? Could make sense... maybe we could describe its rules in the quest notes when found but not asign any dedicated card for it?

Lightining Bolt as a Fire Spell also is not good for me, would fit better in the Air group and the Dispell from Air can fit in the Fire group instead.

Let's go ahead... hahaha

If we drop a couple of cards I would like to implement the "Wandering Apprentice" card, we have an extra female wizard that can fit the role and also the Zanrath figure is used as an NPC and could also be used as an ally. Not that I want to change too much from the original, this stuff was suggested in the reviewer's notes.

I guess you are thinking in giving those Wandering Aprentices 1 spell as says the notes?, maybe each apprentice could use a different spell, writen in the card. Probably a stupid question at the moment, already answered somewhere, but are we talking about evil wandering apprentice wizards or are they good guys when found?

Going back to the spells, seems all Zanrath's spell were recycled: Dispell, Strands of Binding, Wall of Flame were going to be re-used for the WQP as Hero spells while Escape, Madness (same of Command) and Rust are Chaos Spell already used in the Game-System.
I'd like to not plunder the WoM questpack of almost ALL of its content. I know it is a questpack that requires a better quest editing and a better story, it's still full of bugs, but I would prefer to take things as many different as possible beetween the WoM and the WQP whenever this will be possible.

Well, it is so clear at this moment that they seriously considered WoM as basis for many points. I think we should try to coexist with that and try to think like those 90's minds.

[lestodante]

however, I am thinking about the Dispell Chaos spell... do we have any information from the quest notes of which spells would cast each one of the evil sorcerers?

Yes, as in other quests, we have the wizard stats and the list of spells he can cast; they are taken from both the WQP and the Game-System.

I think a spell of Dispell would make sense to be used by evil wizards in WQP, so elimiating it from the list just because it is included in EQP I am not sure... ... I respect the non-repeat-spell criterion, maybe we could show compliance with that by including a similar spell but with some slightly diferences...?

Dispell in WoM is different from the one in the EQP, it allows to pick up and discard a spell at random from the chosen spellcaster.
Dispell in the WQP has the same text of the one in the EQP, defend against a spell cast by someone else, roll a dice and check the result, then discard cancel the spell or not, depending by the dice test.
We could go with the one from WoM.
As for the aprentices, yes, I wanted to give them 1 or 2 spells from the unchosen set. They may ally with the heroes and have basic sats, maybe just 1 BP. They will not leave the floor/quest they are found so they can help you only in that quest and in the following ones you must be lucky to find another aprentice who survived. In a first draft, they are named as "the guardians". So they will stay to guard that level only (quest).

[HispaZargon]

Yes, as in other quests, we have the wizard stats and the list of spells he can cast; they are taken from both the WQP and the Game-System.

Thanks, so I guess the dispel one is in the list of some of the sorcerers, isn't it? Just for curiously, is such spell repeated in any sorcerer? I mean if they can cast it more than once.

Dispell in WoM is different from the one in the EQP, it allows to pick up and discard a spell at random from the chosen spellcaster.
Dispell in the WQP has the same text of the one in the EQP, defend against a spell cast by someone else, roll a dice and check the result, then discard cancel the spell or not, depending by the dice test.
We could go with the one from WoM.

Ok, it could be a possible solution...

As for the aprentices, yes, I wanted to give them 1 or 2 spells from the unchosen set. They may ally with the heroes and have basic sats, maybe just 1 BP. They will not leave the floor/quest they are found so they can help you only in that quest and in the following ones you must be lucky to find another aprentice who survived. In a first draft, they are named as "the guardians". So they will stay to guard that level only (quest).

Really interesting... I would not give them more than 1 BP. Mercenaries had 2 BPs and they are supposed to be warriors. Orcs have only one... 1 BP for them I think is correct since we all know that Wizards are so weak in HeroQuest universe... about the number of spells I have no criterion yet, it depends how much importance they would have in the quest development... if it is not too much, 1 spell would be ok, I think.

[Pancho]

The Wizard Quest pack in particular sounds very cool; Sabretooth pets and apprentice Wizards instead of mercenaries, interesting new spells and monsters. Looking forward to this one. The Wizard was always the most interesting Hero from a tactical point of view, now he’s getting more spells to really bring hi sgameplay options to life. I’m still not sure how the spell choosing will work, it sounds a little “messy” compared to the base game, but I’m happy to see how it all plays out as this project unfolds.