The Stephen Baker Interview Sep/2020

[Daedalus]

Another interview has surfaced--this time in a podcast called The Best Damn Nerd Show on 9/28/20. Here's the link to episode 17. The actual interview portion begins at 25:40 and runs to 53:14.

Stephen told Hasbro/Avalon Hill he is open to creating more Quest adventures--we can only hope! Also, a Ranger Hero was part of the original design but got cut out to meet budget.

[Kurgan]

Thanks for posting, sounds interesting...

[Daedalus]

Listening further in the podcast, the Inn gets a nod at 1:51:30.

[Thor-in]

We do have a great community here of people keeping this game alive.

[Daedalus]

. . . Also, a Ranger Hero was part of the original design but got cut out to meet budget.

Actually, there's a bit more revealed by Baker. At 50:30 into the podcast:

James Kincaid: Before I forget, I'd kick myself if I didn't get to ask, you mentioned at Pulsecon--uh--the Barbarian was sort of your favorite character. Uh--can you take us through a little bit sort of the Hero creation, and were there any that were sort of on the cusp of making the original game?

Stephen Baker: So, it was um, it was basically about trying to make sure that all of the kind of the . . . the sort of archetypal, sort of--you know--character types were in there. So you had to have the Wizard. You had to have the--the Warrior. You had to have sort of the Dwarf and the Elf. Um . . . again from a costing standpoint, um--ya know I had originally sort of contemplated additional characters. But again--you know--I needed to save content costs to put more monsters in the box. So--um--it ended up being the foursome.

James Kincaid: Were--were there any that you remember, that--that you sort of originally had in mind for--for the game because of cost you couldn't include?

Stephen Baker: So, I did originally have a sort of, a Ranger-type character in there. Um--and uh--but in some ways it sort of overlapped a little bit with--um--with the Elf and the Dwarf. So--um--I just sort of kept it with--ya know--the Dwarf has got his sort of--ya know--his tool kit, and the Elf has got a mix of combat and spells. Um--so I ended up sort of putting the Ranger to the side.

Specuation time!

Question #1: I think it's interesting, maybe even telling that the Warrior, not the Barbarian, is mentioned by Baker as an archetypal character along with the Wizard, Elf, and Dwarf. Especially considering the Barbarian was just specifically mentioned as Baker's favorite Hero, and the triggering question is about the Hero creation process and any Heroes that nearly made the original game.

I think it's worth noting Advanced Heroquest, which likely was being developed roughly at the same time as Heroquest, has a Warrior character. Also, Bryan Ansell's bag 'o prototype Hero Quest figures contain a couple of knights and even a Warrior of Chaos, all of which could be considered warrior-types (if not differentiated Hero candidates.) To me, this indicates they were all in play at Games Workshop as a contributing part of HQ development. (The Barbarian won, of course--look at the muscularity!) The remarkable similarity of the Warrior and Barbarian figures of Talisman 3rd ed. (1994) further suggests that the Warrior and Barbarian related to the same archetypal role at GW.

Question #2: The revelation that at least a Ranger-type Hero existed might explain Bryan Ansell's Elf prototype figure with its sword and bow. Both AH and Talisman (and even Warhammer Quest) had a similar Elf or Elf-alternate figure.

The AH Elf got a +1 bonus to surprise rolls. The Talisman Elf could evade. Perhaps this means a surprise/evade ability for a Ranger/Elf was kicking around for the HQ Ranger-type. A bow was also likely to have been included, perhaps as an exclusive weapon.

[Kurgan]

I wouldn't put too much stock in using a different term (Gauntlet had a "Warrior" as well and it was a straight up Conan the Barbarian copy), after all he did say he always loved the DREAD WARRIORS... but yeah, the "walking tank" character doesn't have to be shirtless Arnie/Dolph w/ diaper & sword. Otherwise, pretty much. Always cool to hear little tidbits like that.

[HispaZargon]

Dear all,

After recently being part of the amazing project of interview with Stephen Baker (more info here), I thought it was a good idea to organize a bit smarter all the relevant interviews published in Inn forum, to make them more accesible.

During the process of re-organizing all the info I noticed that the interview with Stephen Baker mentioned in this thread (I think) was not properly tracked for future consulting, because its content was only available in audio format.

This interview was performed at 'The Best Damn Nerd Show' Episode 17, by podcaster James Kincaid, published on their website the 28th of September of 2020.

The_Best_Damn_Nerd_Show_logo.JPG

At the time this interview was performed, the marketing campaign of the re-launch of HeroQuest by Hasbro had been already started, but the game was not still available by customers, so maybe nowadays this interview could sound a bit outdated, and not too unknown information was actually revealed through it by Stephen Baker, but anyway the Creator still was as relevant as has always been for the HeroQuest board game fandom, so for sure many of the Inn members will find this interview interesting.

As already mentioned before in this thread, Stephen Baker reveals on this interview that he thought about including a Ranger in the classic HeroQuest, and he gives some ideas about how this Hero had been defined, however the design team finally decided to not include it in the game due to budget matters.

Then, I recommend you listening the full interview with Stephen Baker in the website of The Best Damn Nerd Show (link here, interview portion begins at 25:40 and runs to 53:14), however, with the unique intention of also preserving at least the interview in an accesible alternative place for all Inn forum members, I took the license of transcribing below the full audio content in text format. The interview was published more than three years ago, so I think this action will not mean any bad thread to their authors, hopefully.

And finally, I would like to say THANKS to The Best Damn Nerd Show and James Kincaid for making this cool interview to Stephen Baker, and for also being so pasionate with the board game we all love around here.

I would like to also point that The Best Damn Nerd Show has quite a lot of interesting podcasts about many other nerd topics, so I strongly recommend you visiting their website to enjoy them.

Enjoy!


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INTERVIEW WITH STEPHEN BAKER, performed by podcaster James Kincaid during 'The Best Damn Nerd Show, Episode 17', and published the 28th of September of 2020 in their website:

HeroQuest Returns

James Kincaid (JK): Welcome back to The Best Damn Nerd Show. Bimbo Jimbo and Jeff Budd here with you on this very special HeroQuest episode. And as we teased before the break, our next guest is the creator of the greatest board game ever made. And he stole the show at Hasbro PulseCon when he read aloud the opening of The Prophecy of Telor, which is an exclusive quest book that will be released if, and I say when, that stretch goal is met. The true Mentor and Master of Loretome, Stephen Baker, everyone.

Stephen Baker (SB): Hi, everyone.

JK: Thank you so much for coming on.

SB: Oh, thank you. I'm really excited to talk about HeroQuest.

JK: Yeah, you know, as are we, and this has been a long time coming, a quick little order of business at the top here. You are creating an exclusive quest book. It is The Prophecy of Telor. It's one of the upcoming stretch goals for this campaign. So if you go to HasbroPulse.com, you click that Haslad tab, to back HeroQuest, which we all encourage you to do. You can pre-order the game today. Go to HeroQuest.AvalonHill.com for even more information and exclusive content. So be sure to back it like we have. We are thrilled about this relaunch. But I want to talk to you about your career, how you got your start in this great industry of gaming. How did you get into that?

SB: So I have always been someone who enjoyed, I enjoyed playing those games even as a kid. I also collected toy soldiers and I designed games to play with those soldiers. So gaming has always been a key passion of mine. And when I left college, I went and worked in a bank, which was a very safe thing to do. But at the weekends, I would work at a game store and an opportunity came up for me to go and work full time at the game store, much to my family's horror. But through that, I got introduced to a guy, who worked at Hasbro or Milton Bradley, as it was back then. And they were testing some games and they invited me to go along for three days and look at some games. I did that and at the end of three days, they said, why don't you come work here full time? And that was my beginning.

JK: That's incredible. I mean, so that led you down to what would become HeroQuest. But do you have any advice for anyone trying to sort of break into the industry today?

SB: Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating and it's one of the things that I've really sort of thought a lot about over the past few weeks, you know, when I joined Milton Bradley or Hasbro and designed HeroQuest, the world was a completely different place. Not just in terms of technology, but the infrastructure of the gaming industry. It was nothing like it is today. So, back then, there were no university courses for game design. But there are these days. So I think that my advice would be, if you're really keen on games, think about what it is that makes a game appealing when you play it. Think about the whole experience, not just the physical components or the rules. Think about it holistically. And then, explore what you can read. There's plenty of books out there on game design. There are plenty of university courses. There's plenty of opportunity for you to really hone and learn your craft.

JK: Very, very good stuff. And of course, we're going to revisit the original HeroQuest and how that came to be. But, with the relaunch being announced, it met its goal in 24 hours. When did you know that the HeroQuest relaunch was going to be a reality? And what was your reaction to that?

SB: So, as you know, obviously, I worked at Hasbro for many, many years. And I left about a year ago to start my own design development company. And Hasbro reached out to me about three months ago. And they said, we're going to bring HeroQuest back and we would like you to help us by writing a bonus quest book that would be part of the relaunch. Of course, I was very sort of thrilled to be given that opportunity and, you know, it was kind of a almost sort of surreal experience going back and writing a new adventure after so many years. But, no, it was great fun.

JK: So, like you said, after so many years, HeroQuest, a relaunch is becoming a reality. Did you ever sort of lose hope that was going to be a thing? Is it something that you had been pushing for? Or is it that you were happy with where the game had ended? Like, what was sort of your thought process on revisiting HeroQuest?

SB: So, it's funny. HeroQuest is, you know, undoubtedly the game that people always talk to me about. And I think that there were certainly, you know, fans and companies out there that were thinking about it. Thinking about how could HeroQuest be brought back. I was thrilled that Hasbro are really sort of making an effort in not only bringing HeroQuest back, but they're doing a lot with the Avalon Hill brand. I'm just very delighted that they've decided to sort of bring it back after all these years.

JK: Yeah. You mentioned that the bonus quest book, The Prophecy of Telor, hearing you read the opening was a great thrill for me. Just, it took me instantly back. I was like, I am ready to play right now. What was the biggest sort of challenge in going back to write that? And what sort of excited you most, either about the challenge or just the overall experience?

SB: So, I wanted to make the most of the opportunity. I wanted to do something that would hopefully create a great experience for those fans buying into the new HeroQuest and coming back maybe to the game. After many years, you've got the fans out there who have continued to play throughout all of this time. But then you've got many other people for whom, playing HeroQuest has sort of lapsed, they haven't played the game maybe for, you know, 10, 15 years or so. So, I wanted to make this a quest that would really deliver a great experience for those fans returning to the game. And I also wanted to make sure that it was something that in some way, sort of built from the original game. So, as I wrote in that little article, this adventure really kind of springs from Quest 5 from the original game, Melar's Maze, and it's all built off of that story in the original product.

JK: Yeah, I loved reading just what you had to say about that. And you've mentioned that, Hasbro approached you about doing the Quest, but did they approach you about having any sort of role or input in the relaunch beyond that?

SB: So, they gave me a kind of like an overview as to what they were doing. Obviously, in order for me to write the Quest, I needed to understand what was going to be in the box, what were the components, the monsters, et cetera, et cetera. And they basically said, look, this is essentially a refresh. It's essentially the same product brought up to date with more contemporary figures and art and all the rest of it. And so, based on that, I said, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and look at the components. I pulled out one of my old games and basically challenged myself to write an
adventure that was a little bit different from those that I'd written previously.

JK: Yeah, and you mentioned the new components and that essentially it's sort of a refresh. So, essentially, the story elements that you created those years ago are going to remain intact. So, you knew sort of where you could navigate and shouldn't navigate with this quest book, right?

SB: Exactly. I wanted this to sort of stand apart. I didn't want it to necessarily get into the middle of the story arc between the main game and Return of the Witch Lord and Kellar's Keep. So, this one is kind of like a little interlude. It's a standalone adventure, but nonetheless, it's connected to the main game.

SB: Yeah, and I encourage, again, everyone, go back the campaign right now so that we can get to experience this quest book. And I have no doubt that it's going to happen. I'm very excited for that. But what about you? What have you thought about what you've seen so far, the new miniatures, the art and everything like that? What have your sort of thoughts been?

SB: So, to be honest, I saw everything the same time everyone else did. (laughs) Hasbro obviously told me enough for me to be able to write the bonus quest book. But understandably, they were able to write the bonus quest book. They wanted to have this all sort of underwrapped so that they got the full reveal. And so I was there just like everyone else watching the clock tick down and when it first booted up and I saw it, my thought was just, wow. I mean, I didn't think that they would have executed it the way that they did. I love the fact that it's a contemporary take. It's sort of a more modern art style. They've obviously got super detailed miniatures. They've got a lot of details in there. And yet it just exudes the look of the original game. It's got the same tonality. It's got the same composition. And I think that for many fans of HeroQuest, this is a fresh version of their favorite game. This is something that you can put in front of a family or sort of some younger players today. And it's got that modern look. But it just echoes the classic game so well. I think they did a great job.

JK: Yeah, I completely agree, and just how they did it from the start with the countdown, it's something that Jeff and I have talked about for years in terms of, like, is this going to happen? And then for them to share that countdown, I was like, oh, my god, I think this is going to be a reality. And then everything that I've seen so far, even the changes that are understandable that have to be made for, you know, a myriad of reasons, I think they've hit a home run so far. And I love talking about the next generation. You know, Jeff grew up with the game. Jeff then introduced me to it as a fully grown adult person. And I was captivated by the game. And, looking toward the next generation, one of our co-hosts has a lovely daughter that I'm now so excited to get to share the game with her, hopefully, and so forth. So for this to, just be sort of it's continuing on generational legacy is very exciting for me. And I think it's just so important because it's such a great game. Are there plans for you to maybe continue writing more quests as this? I assume this relaunch is going to be a smashing success and the need for more quests will be forthcoming. Is that something that you would be interested in?

SB: It's certainly something that I'm open to. There's no sort of plans in place right now. But, I know the folks at Hasbro well. They know me and I certainly said that, this was a fun project. I'm certainly open and I'm open to working with them going forward.

JK: You talk about how writing the quests was sort of reconnecting with your younger self. So let's go back to the genesis of HeroQuest. How did you formulate that original idea and sort of creation for the early days that became HeroQuest?

SB: So when I first joined Hasbro, I came from more of a sort of a gaming sort of background. I was into the hobby game. I did the tabletop gaming. And I spoke to my sort of boss at the time that fantasy gaming was something that Hasbro should be in. There was this whole world of Dungeons & Dragons out there and role playing, et cetera, et cetera. And my vision really was I just wanted to put role playing in a box. I wanted it to look like a role playing game. I wanted it to feel like a role playing game. But I wanted it to be as easy to get. Get into as possible. And being someone who's always enjoyed toy soldiers and tabletop terrain and fighting battles, I love spectacle. I love the theater. So I wanted the game to be as three dimensional as possible. I wanted cool miniatures in there. I wanted to have the furniture. I wanted the board to be colorful. And, it took time to get there. I mean, it's my early versions of the game. We're nothing like how it ended up, but the vision was basically role playing in a box to get into and as tactile and as visually appealing as possible.

JK: Now, you talk about the early versions of the game and what it ended up, you know, becoming. Was there anything that got cut that you really wish hadn't or any sort of maybe dynamics to the game that you that you had wanted to to implement that didn't come to be?

SB: So, my early versions of the game were more complex. But what I found is, I reached out and I worked with some youth groups and some local schools and we did play testing. And what dawned on me was people coming into this fantasy adventure game for the first time. There's a limit to what they can manage in terms of the rule structure and the complexity. So I had to sort of simplify it a lot. The one thing that I had to. Give up. And it was just a matter of cost, which was the one thing that I would love to have kept in there is that the game board was originally three panels, not two. So I don't know if you guys are familiar with old games like Axis & Allies and Conquest of the Empire. Well, the original HeroQuest game had that kind of three panel board. It was 50 percent bigger. And the reason why I was kind of, you know, I tried to keep it, but I had to balance it. I had to figure out how I was going to get it out with all of the cost of the other components. But obviously, you know, the unfortunate thing about not being able to do that is it just reduced the amount of real estate within which I could plan all of the various adventures. But I think that with the configuration of the board, you know, you still can do an awful lot to make each adventure feel and look different. You know, despite the fact that I ended up having to have a two panel board.

JK: That's incredibly interesting to me. I had no idea that was possible, that was the original plan, and obviously it changes greatly sort of the parameters of each adventure. It just makes me think about more modern board games like, say, Arkham Horror or things like that, or games are just like board upon board, expansion after expansion. It's crazy sort of how expansive the board games have gotten today. And I think you hit on something, the word that I love when it comes to Hero Quest. And I mean this in the most positive way is the beauty of it. In its simplicity, it is a beautiful marriage of role playing, but accessibility through the fact that it's easy to understand and it's easy to dive in.

SB: Look, the purpose of Hero Quest back in the day was to be that entry level product, something that pretty much anyone can get into. And you don't have to have gone and done a lot, do a lot of studying. Be to be dissolved. You can be the Zargon player and be as new to the game as everyone else. And I think that purpose is still there. I mean, there are many, many games out there these days. It's a completely different world, as I mentioned earlier, than when HeroQuest first came to the market. But there's always a need for that first product, that first game that you play. There's always a need that gamers have and families that enjoy games need. So to say, how do I give that seven or eight year old their first experience? How do I give that novice player their first entry into the experience of fantasy adventure gaming? And, again, this is where HeroQuest isn't more complicated. It's not one of the sort of the deeper games. But if you're looking for a fun, fast entry into the world of fantasy adventure gaming, it's good product.

JK: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, were you tempted at all when Hasbro approached you like, hey, my original idea was actually have an extra panel. (laughs) If you guys want to add a little bit more to it and do it that way, I can update these quests for you, because that is an interesting sort of concept to me. And even vaster HeroQuest board would be pretty fun to play on.

SB: Yeah. And it was the to be honest, it was the initial conversation I had when the folks reached out to me, because, I mean, obviously I was looking forward to being able to write the bonus adventure. But my first question was, what's changing? Is it the same? Is there still an opportunity to kind of look at sort of other adaptations or even even sort of extra components around the quest? But they gave me a great brief and they basically said, look, we're refreshing the item, we're bringing it, we're making it sort of contemporary. But essentially, we're keeping the product the same, and that was. It was good to hear in a way because it kind of it made me feel like the strength of the simple gameplay that was was originally there still holds up today.

JK: Yeah. And I think it's something that people need to be reminded of because there are some games out there that are great games, but to newer board game players, and certainly younger ones, are almost prohibitive in how complex they are. So I think, like you said, this is a great gateway and entryway for a lot of new board game players. So when did you know when you released the original HeroQuest that you would hit on something special?

SB: So it basically sort of started to become obvious that we had something different, even from when we first presented it at a toy fair in Earl's Court. Again, back in the day, they just weren't any games that look like this. I mean, most games were sort of more flat or they had a sort of a large central structure. This was very much the sort of the first of its kind. The quality of these miniatures, the color and the three dimensionality of it, the theater, even something as simple as just that little screen that kind of echoes the sort of the Dungeon Master screen in role playing games. And we certainly got a lot of buzz coming out of toy fair, and that was ahead of obviously going into market and then the sort of the key holiday selling season. And so we had good hopes for it. And then, as it as it turned out, it sold very, very well. It won a number of awards in the U.K. And, then we got rolled out through the rest of Europe and the U.S. and met with similar success.

JK: Yeah, no, it's crazy. And it's just it's enduring success. I mean, look, so the HeroQuest relaunch, it hit its main funding goal in just twenty four hours. What does that say to you about just the fact that this appeal is so enduring with HeroQuest?

SB: So, you know, I really hope the fans embrace this. I mean, there's been a sort of a commerce on eBay and everything about HeroQuest games over the years. I mean, people go to. A lot of people have a great lense to try and get themselves a copy or compile a copy from a number of other products. And so, I'm hoping that the fans embrace this and sort of see this as I say, a fresh version of their favorite game. And a lot of people do have a sort of like a strong passion for this. This was a game that many people played when they were younger. And they've got very vivid memories. So playing the game either with friends and family it's something that is really a part of their childhood and has fond memories.

JK: Yeah, no doubt. Or even adulthood in my case (laughs) I remember visiting Jeff and leaving some of my fondest memories of my adult life are playing HeroQuest. And when I wasn't playing, thinking about playing more HeroQuest and what was going to happen, I hadn't played Return of the Witch Lord yet. It was like a it was, when we finished the main game and we had to make the choice of when I visited next time, which expansion to play. And I knew, you know, from what you wrote at the end, it's like, well, we probably do Kellar's Keep first because, you know, the Emperor is in danger and danger. Yeah, exactly. But I really wanted to take on the Witch Lord. But it was just such a rich story that it just it creates, like you said, those those vivid memories. So I'm sure you must get a lot of people both from within the industry and just fans. I mean, you had it. At PulseCon, you had Joe Manganiello, moderating this panel. He's a Hollywood A-lister and clearly the game meant a lot to him and inspired other people. What is that sort of like for you? Must be a pretty heady feeling.

SB: It is, and it's very humbling. I mean, I get people all the time, looking me up sort of through LinkedIn or when people sort of find out that I designed the game. People always want to tell me their story. They want to tell me about how this was a game that they would play all weekend, how this was a game that they played with their dad, how this was a game that their friends would sort of play even through into college. And I also get a lot of people who tell me that this was the game that got them into gaming or this was the game that got them into writing or this was the game that got them into designing games or got them into film, and that's pretty awesome. I always sort of, as I say, very humble about that. I love the fact that this game was such an inspiration to so many people.

JK: Yeah, it's very cool... A couple more minutes with Stephen Baker, the creator of HeroQuest, as we are celebrating the fact that it is relaunching with the success of the relaunch so far. Do you think that maybe we could see something similar for, say, Hero Scape or Space Crusade?

SB: You know, I mean, that's all sort of good questions for Hasbro. (laughs) I've designed a number of games over the years which I had a sort of a similar sort of profile to HeroQuest where I basically tried to create a experience, a full experience within the box that the replicated more complex games elsewhere. If Hasbro wants to revisit any of them, I would be happy to work with them on those.

JK: Love it. Love it. Just a couple more. From your perspective, what is the legacy of HeroQuest to you?

SB: Hero Quest is not necessarily the game that I think was the best game that I designed, but it's the game that I think I'm always going to be known for. And I think the legacy of HeroQuest is it was the first it kind of it broke a new mold. It sort of created a game that had a different composition. And since then, there have been many, many, many games that have kind of built on that. So, the idea of a game that essentially gives you that sort of adventuring in a box with dimensionality and cool miniatures and cool pieces and an unfolding storyline. I mean, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of games now that deliver that, but nothing will ever change the fact that HeroQuest was the first of its kind.

JK: Yeah, absolutely right. And before I forget, I'd kick myself if I didn't get to ask you, you mentioned at PulseCon the Barbarian was sort of your favorite character. Can you take us through a little bit sort of the the hero creation and were there any that sort of were on the cusp of making the original game?

SB: So it was basically about trying to make sure that all of the kind of the sort of archetypal sort of character types were in there. So you had to have the Wizard, you had to have the Warrior, you had to have the sort of the Dwarf and the Elf again, from a costing standpoint. You know, I had originally sort of contemplated additional characters. But again, I needed to save content cost to put more monsters in the box. So I ended up being the foursome.

JK: Were there any that you remember that you sort of originally had in mind for the game? That became the foursome? Was there anything else that you had in mind because of cost you couldn't include?

SB: So I did originally have a sort of a Ranger type character in there and but in some ways, it sort of overlaps a little bit with the Elf and the Dwarf. So I just sort of kept it with the Dwarf has got his sort of toolkit and the Elf has got a mix of combat and spells. So I ended up sort of putting the Ranger to the side.

JK: Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, you've been incredibly generous with your time, Stephen. We really appreciate it. Last one for you. What is on the horizon for you? What's next for you, Stephen Baker? And where can people find you or anything you want to plug and promote?

SB: Sure. Thank you. You can find me on on LinkedIn if you do any sort of Google search, just "Stephen Baker games", you'll find me into LinkedIn or it'll take you to games that I've done on BoardGameGeek.com. And basically, for the last year, I've been working with my own sort of design development company, I basically left Hasbro to invent games. So I spend about 40%, 50% of my time doing freelance work for other games companies and toy companies around the world. And then I spend half of my time inventing brand new products. So, I'm basically going back to what I've always loved. The time was right. I loved my time at Hasbro. But now, I'm kind of indulging a little bit and getting back to what it is that I enjoy most.

JK: I love it. And you're the best at doing it. So thank you once again for your time.

SB: Thank you.

JK: That was Stephen Baker. We will be talking more HeroQuest on the other side on the Best Damn Nerd Show...

End of interview.

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Links to many other relevant interviews about HeroQuest are compiled in this thread.

[Kurgan]

I listened to this long ago but had forgotten that I had, so I listened to it again. Thanks for posting the transcript and link here! I was so caught up in the hype at the time but its interesting thinking back after so much dust has settled.