Hero Collection II: Rogue Heir of Elethorn (Oct-Dec '22)

[Kurgan]

There is some debate over whether the "helmet" is something that the Rogue cannot wear. Several people have been saying since a helmet is metal (via the Rust dread spell card) that it must be "metal armor" and forbidden by the restriction. "Zargon's" response on twitter seemed a little vague, but I guess that's their intention, that he should NOT be able to wear it, is that right? This would have implications retroactively for the Druid and Bard who also have a thing for not using "metal armor" (the former cannot, the latter gets a bonus if he doesn't). It seems Shields are independent of the "metal armor" classification. I had up until recently assumed that "Bracers" were what was meant by "non-metal armor" (and that the Wizard's Cloak is a special case, it CAN be combined with Bracers for the Wizard or Warlock).

And I'm saying that as Equipment that is not under the list of un-stealables, that the Bandolier (that the character starts with) CAN be stolen by ice gremlins, nullifying his infinite dagger ability (he'd default to throwing whatever daggers he has, and losing them if he does). But of course he can buy another (expensive) bandolier between quests...

[SirRick]

I thought it was already common knowledge the Druid cannot wear a helmet, and that the Bard negates his extra defend die if he wears one. That seemed to be the general consensus of people here at the inn. Is this not the case?

After reading the Rogue’s hero card, it seems clear to me the Rogue is not allowed to wear a helmet. The Helmet card says it is armor, and Rust destroys helmets which means it’s metal. I guess I’m confused that there is confusion about this.

[wallydubbs]

It seems like all these new characters: Bard, Druid, Warlock and now Rogue have an aversion to metal armor except the Bracers... Am I correct on this assertion?

Although the Bard can wear armor, it hinders his extra defense dice.

Speaking of the Bracers, I read it somewhere that they can't be combined with chainmail. The Bracers are significantly cheaper then Chainmail and the restrictions "Cab only be used by the Wizard" has been lifted. What's preventing the Barbarian, Elf and Dwarf from buying this instead on chainmail?

[SirRick]

It seems like all these new characters: Bard, Druid, Warlock and now Rogue have an aversion to metal armor except the Bracers... Am I correct on this assertion?

Although the Bard can wear armor, it hinders his extra defense dice.

Speaking of the Bracers, I read it somewhere that they can't be combined with chainmail. The Bracers are significantly cheaper then Chainmail and the restrictions "Cab only be used by the Wizard" has been lifted. What's preventing the Barbarian, Elf and Dwarf from buying this instead on chainmail?

Bracers cost 550 gold making it more expensive than Chain Mail, so if you want to spend the extra 50 gold, they could wear that instead.

[wallydubbs]

I'm probably thinking of the old European version, where it's 200 gold. Disregard...

[QorDaq]

...And I'm saying that as Equipment that is not under the list of un-stealables, that the Bandolier (that the character starts with) CAN be stolen by ice gremlins, nullifying his infinite dagger ability (he'd default to throwing whatever daggers he has, and losing them if he does). But of course he can buy another (expensive) bandolier between quests...

I am only addressing the Bandolier portion of this quote, and then out of context. And only quoting since the text above parenthetically points out that the Rogue starts with the Bandolier. I know it's mentioned on the back of the card, stating that they are equipped with their trusty Bandolier and are always ready for danger... Or something similar.

I may have missed it in previous discussion somewhere, but it occurs to me that the Rogue starting with a Bandolier is problematic. While somewhat situational, more often than not, several turns out of a given combat, the Rogue essentially starts out with a Crossbow equivalent attack when their abilities are stacked with the Bandolier. And while I cannot cite the confirmation off the top of my head, I believe I saw that Zargon had confirmed that the Rogue abilities do stack. Just cannot be used more than once per turn.

Personally, I would have preferred that the description on the back of the Rogue stat card, had phrased it differently, such that the Bandolier was an item the Rogue would be aspiring to attain (Like many other characters and a Crossbow, for example).

Bottom line for me is, the Bandolier is a really good starting item. Maybe too good. I'd rather the Bandolier be something the Rogue looks forward to picking up after they have a couple Quests under their belt. It is not prohibitively expensive to gain fairly early, again like a Crossbow or a Broadsword. And in terms of progression items, that makes sense to me.

Now I just received my copy of the Rogue, so it hasn't hit the table yet. In other words, this is all theory-crafting until I do, but I think I may house rule that the Rogue needs to purchase the Bandolier as an upgrade. I'd like to play it a couple of times first to confirm firsthand of course. But it's something that's been percolating at the back of my mind ever since we got all the details on the character.

Any thoughts on this? Particularly from anyone who has had a chance to actually play the Rogue?

[Kurgan]

A ranged two dice attack that's unblockable seems powerful, but that's all it is, vs. the Crossbow's blockable 3 dice ranged attack.

One loophole people were worried about early on is that he could grab a Magical Throwing Dagger and turn it into an "infinite" unblockable attack, but it seems the Bandolier itself supplies the daggers, it doesn't turn existing daggers into infinites, so that wouldn't happen.

I've only used him in one quest so far and he seemed pretty handy, I'll have to see how he holds up over successive quests.

[lestodante]

I think the Magical throwing Dagger is an item on itself, one use only. The Bandolier has standard knives only.
I am still surprised about some people has a special skill in creating problems and overcomplicate things

[QorDaq]

I think the Magical throwing Dagger is an item on itself, one use only. The Bandolier has standard knives only.
I am still surprised about some people has a special skill in creating problems and overcomplicate things

So here's my logic...

Ambidextrous: "Once per turn, when you attack with a shortsword or dagger you may make one additional attack with a dagger. Do not discard [Ambidextrous card] after use."

This skill allows for an extra attack once per turn with a dagger. It does not state that this cannot be used as a ranged attack.


Opportunistic Striker: "Once per turn, you may throw [roll] one extra combat die when attacking a monster next to another hero. Do not discard [Opportunistic Striker card] after use."

This is the situational bit I mentioned in my long-winded wall of text above. It allows the Rogue to add +1 CD to an attack so long as the target is adjacent to another Hero. It does not specify that that attack cannot be ranged.


Dagger: "Weapon -- This sharp knife gives you the attack strength of 1 combat die. A dagger can also be thrown at any monster you can see but is lost once it is thrown."

This is a standard dagger, not a Magical Throwing Dagger, which is a treasure item that is lost once thrown AND cannot be defended against. Different item slightly different properties. We are not talking about the Magical Throwing Dagger in my examples.


Bandolier: "Counts as a Tool Kit for disarming Traps and you are always considered to be armed with a dagger. It can only be used by the Rogue."

In other words, when equipped with a Bandolier, the Rogue has an infinite number of [Normal] Daggers. Which, as we can see in the Dagger verbiage, can be thrown. Typically that Dagger would be lost once thrown, but in this case there's another ready to replace it thanks to the Bandolier.

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If we put this all together, under the right circumstances (Likely the first turn or two of a given battle since the Rogue can also use their Combat Mobility to move to an advantageous position), the Rogue can probably attack twice, at least one of these attacks being a 2 CD ranged attack. That is, so long as they are using a Shortsword or Dagger.

From day one, the Rogue does have access to a Dagger as a starting weapon. A Shortsword is a natural early upgrade. But even with the Dagger, the Rogue is rolling up to 3 CD, granting that only two of these are likely ranged... Except that, the Bandolier guarantees the Rogue always has a Dagger to hand. Thus that 1 CD Dagger attack could be ranged (With no risk of losing the Dagger).

This means that the Rogue gets up to 2 attacks per turn, only 1 of which can be defended (Zargon's choice), and each of the 2 attacks could be ranged under the right conditions.

That sounds like not just a Crossbow to me, but an improved Crossbow. The Bandolier is cheaper by 50 GC and in concert with the Rogues other skills, offers multiple attacks that cannot all be defended. And, to take the argument a step further, the thrown dagger can target any monster the Rogue can "See", which does not automatically rule out adjacent or diagonally adjacent targets, though back in the day I ruled that the dagger could not be thrown at an orthogonally adjacent target.

So I do not think I am over-complicating things. Though I could be missing something along the way in terms of clarifications on the specific use of certain equipment or skills of course, which is why I am bringing it up.

Anyway, to me, as I am parsing the Rogue's starting effectiveness, it feels pretty potent. This is why it has occurred to me that requiring the Rogue to purchase the Bandolier instead of starting with it, might be some small way to mitigate the question, while also giving the Rogue a little something to look forward to for a future upgrade.

So I ask; Am I really missing some glaringly obvious detail here that has lead me to create a problem that doesn't exist? Or maybe it's just not a big deal in the grand scheme. That's likely subjective, but to my thinking, it seems that the Rogue, more than most (possibly any) other Hero is ripe for min-maxing. Stackable skills and that amazing Bandolier, seem to be a pretty great combination. Particularly early game.

[wallydubbs]

I think the Magical throwing Dagger is an item on itself, one use only. The Bandolier has standard knives only.
I am still surprised about some people has a special skill in creating problems and overcomplicate things

Just a few side questions for the Magical Throwing Dagger (MTD):
1.) If the Wizard finds a MTD, would he need to equip it prior to throwing? Some here at the inn play an action to change equipment.
2.) Can the MTD be used as a regular dagger with the 1 combat dice attack instead of being thrown?