A case against "Zargon" dice?

[Kurgan]

So I've always thought, well HeroQuest isn't truly a competative game (unless you want it to be), but maybe this is food for thought. I see that Casino dice would be a rather expensive and inconvenient way to play this game.

But the idea that Zargon should have his own dice, and maybe each player should have their own dice when playing (encouraged now by Hasbro with their Mythic tier having a second set of white dice and Frozen Horror having a second set of combat and movement dice in another color).

This article doesn't have to be the end all be all, and we live in the real world where things aren't perfect, wind speed, people have different sized hands and different throwing techniques. I hate dice towers (prefer cups or just plain old rolling in palms... I imagine most of us wouldn't play on a casino-regulation craps table).

See what you think... DakkaDakka article on dice science

I've never had anyone at my table complain that the dice were "unfair" but I have had plenty of complaints about low movement rolls with the red dice. I prefer to use the rounded corner plastic dice with pips. The Remake set uses the squared corners with pips. (both types the pips are inscribed and the dice are not transparent... casino dice the pips are painted on and the corners and edges are sharp and pointed and the plastic is transparent).

Makes me think of the intro to "Always Board Never Boring" on youtube where he rolls three dice and they all come up 1's (not sure if that was a trick shot or if he really rolled them over and over until he got the result he wanted!).

In our HeroQuest world the small wooden dice might be subject to warping but probably very little effect, whereas cheap opaque plastic dice might have air bubbles in them possibly leading to "bias."

[HispaZargon]

Mmm... interesting article.
I also prefer the rounded dice, I see them more 'organic'.

[cornixt]

The simple way to see if the dice are weighted towards one side is to float them in water. I've only done it for consistently poor rolling dice, and it was worst for some cheap dollar store dice that had square corners rather than curved (those were some low impact games of Blood Bowl - everyone failed actions but no one got injured).

I can see why these things matter for casinos, but for a game like HQ it is so inconsequential that a few percentage points barely make any difference at all.

[Kurgan]

Great idea. I can test my dice...

I saw a site selling "loaded dice" there were transparent, so I presume they put lead in some of the pips to make a certain side heavier.

Edit: Tossed my remake red dice into a container of water and they instantly sunk to the bottom...

The original wooden dice float on the surface but don't seem to favor any particular sides. The side you drop them on and they float at an angle.

I've tried my spielwarensaloon (german) dice, boardgamesmaker (chinese) dice, some random D&D dice I got off ebay, and the plastic dice I bought for heroquest... they all sink to the bottom of the cup.

Agreed that the impact should be minimal in a game like this... but to head off criticism, Zargon could use the exact same dice for monsters as the heroes are using.

[cornixt]

Mix salt into the water to help heavier dice float.

[HispaZargon]

I think in HeroQuest game any deviation in the nominal geometry of the round corner dice may be easily justified by the magical action of Zargon or Mentor (depending in the roll results)... both sorcerers are always doing magical experiments which are surely causing small disturbances everywhere through the Old World, of course including the dungeon where the heroes are

[StratosVX]

Mix salt into the water to help heavier dice float.

Or use Jello.

[Kurgan]

Doesn't seem very useful. I mean, unless the test can really show a visible difference between more and less biased dice.

The differences must be negligible in the end.

[QorDaq]

Over the years I've seen a lot of discussion about "Fair" dice in the context of hobby and Table Top RPG gaming. Through all of it over the past 45 plus years, I have come to a set of conclusions and preferences that I am comfortable with.

While there are likely some cogent arguments to justify the science behind unbalanced dice impacting probabilities, It's never been something that has particularly troubled me.

I really like dice a lot. I am something of a collector in fact, but not for the perceived monetary value of a given die, but just because I like dice. I like having lots of dice available at the table for my players. I am not a fan of having to pass dice around, and I do prefer to offer the players at the table their choice of dice. By that I mean, if a particular die is misbehaving (or appears to be), it's easy to swap out one die for another.

I am also particular to dice with iconographic verses numeric results in general--but mostly for the thematic appeal. Some games, like HeroQuest, the Icons are purely thematic, after all it is easy to sub a standard D6 for a CD. Monsters Defend on 6+ (Or Six up as it is often called in hobby gaming), Heroes Defend on a 5+, and everyone Hits on a 4+.

In my opinion, if someone really wanted "fair" dice, it's a lot easier to find a set of "fair" D6s' than it is to find a perfect set of custom dice.

In other games where there are custom dice with multiple sets of Icons on some faces (Think of the GeneSys or Star Wars RPGs' for example), it's a little more complicated, but not by that much as they all use standard polyhedral dice just with the faces depicting icons over numbers.

Anyway, the point being, I will happily trade off the notion of fair perfectly-balanced dice in favor of the functionality of having plenty of dice to choose from and not forcing people to pass dice.

With that in mind, I like that we have access (as mythic backers) or will have (as BQP owners), to more than one set of dice for HQ. In fact, I own both a Mythic and a Retail copy of HQ21, plus two sets of original wooden dice, and a set of 12 plastic dice I picked up on Etsy (which come un-inked)... Lots of dice for my players to choose from. Though admittedly I have yet to ink the Etsy dice.

Even so, I'm looking forward to another set in BQP and ideally yet another in the would be EQP. If Hasbro/ AH gets around to a DQP and WQP with extra dice, I'm in. I'd go so far as to say that if Hasbro were to release extra dice packs as accessories, I'd be a fan there too.

But, all of that is with my original comment well in mind. The idea that some dice may be more balanced than others doesn't bother me in the context of table top gaming. In a casino setting, were I a fan of gambling for money, well balanced fair dice might be more important to me. Note, I am not likely to go to a casino and gamble as I know that the odds are stacked against me in the first place and I have plenty of other ways to dump my cash... Like buying extra dice...*Chuckle*...

However, I do understand that my views are not universal. Some folks will want to know that their dice are balanced, and that's fine. I just think that it can also become a rabbit hole of anxiety trying to collect a perfect set of dice.

Lastly, and I think this is implied in the OP though perhaps not stated directly, if someone is genuinely wanting to maintain an absolutely even playing field, then the idea of using a single set of dice for everyone at the table does have merit. Though I'd also argue that since it's certainly possible that even in a given set of dice there could be variation in the balance of any particular die, the logical conclusion is to only use 1 die for ALL rolls, rolling the same die multiple times if required, regardless of who is rolling or how many dice would be in the pool. That way the balance of the chosen die will be applied equally to everything in the game.

Personally, I feel using a single die would unreasonably slow the game down, and subjectively remove the joy of chucking a handful of dice across the table... Actually, into the dice trays I set up variously around the table please, but that's another discussion. So, speaking strictly for myself, while admitting freely that I am also influenced by my stated love of dice, I choose to not go down the "Fair" dice rabbit hole, because I don't like where it logically concludes with just using 1 die for all rolls.

All of this said, however, I can appreciate the discussion from an academic perspective. In that sense it's a legitimate topic of interest.

[Sargon]

I am a Blood Bowl player and occasionally an opponent will ask to share dice. I always agree if they ask, but it is not something I would ever ask for myself. Maybe it is just me, but when someone asks to share dice, that is a red flag that they take the game a bit too seriously and may not tolerate losing very well.