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Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Have a HeroQuest related project and need community assistance? Create a thread about your project here and the type of aid you require. Other community members searching this room may be able to assist, or join you on your adventure.

Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Sunday March 7th, 2021 11:43pm

Disclaimer 1: I don't know where to put this, so I am going to stick this here and hope that it get's moved to wherever it needs to go if it's not appropriate here.

Disclaimer 2: I haven't done ANY work on any of this beyond vague thoughts, so this isn't even really a project, let alone a complete project.

Now that the disclaimers are out of the way, I would like to say that I think HQ, AHQ, and WHQ are some of the best games ever made. However, they all have their flaws, and I was thinking (and I can't be alone in thinking this), that TOGETHER these three games combined probably IS the greatest game ever created. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and each brings key features to such a theoretical game - which I have dubbed RandoQuest (see what I did there?)

This thread is a general discussion of how the idea/project to create RandoQuest would work, but it's worth noting that the features here could easily be added to any of these games as desired, essentially improving every in different ways, because in general, incorporating the best bits of the others generally is the best way to improve these games.

The click-baity title is because of what I perceive to be the biggest flaw in HQ - issues regarding replayability and randomness. In it's own right, HQ is a great game, but once you have exhausted all the quest packs and so forth, unless you are in to designing your own quests, the game itself offers no real replayability.

Hasbro's reprint is going to highlight this quite clearly if it stays true to the original, which is only going to make any policy of "fire-and-forget" by Hasbro even more irksome. I don't see Hasbro supporting HQ, not only because they haven't done so until now, but the fundraiser and follow up support have been mixed at best, sending confusing, if not downright conflicting messages about what Hasbro is going to do.

I am going to lay down some ground rules that we will be working with going forth - first of which is that, like HQ, RandoQuest will not be explicitly set in the Warhammer World. This means some of the more Warhammer-centric aspects of the game will be optional. The main case for this is with magic, where all three games have wildly differing rules and thematic set ups, and I can get around to discussing which to use in a future post (if there's enough interest, maybe I'll get a sub-forum for this topic soon? I don't mind being a mod!)

Aside the lack of randomisation, and some issues regarding simplicity, HQ is actually the perfect game. It's a classic gateway game, but enjoyable in it's own right. As such, HQ makes for a solid base to work from, going forward. It's USP, of course, is the use of Combat Dice, which allows combat and similar results to be handled quickly and clearly. Someone around here said it best: "Use the special dice, people!"

Let's move on to AHQ. It is, as it says, more advanced than HQ, but the USP for AHQ is the random dungeon generator. In many ways, AHQ can be seen, with a few tweaks, as the best dungeon generation game out there. The only way to improve the dungeon generation of AHQ is to add more rooms, but in general, if you want a good dungeon generation system, some variant of AHQ is typically the way to go.

Finally, we have WHQ, which was a massive beast. It is, in fact, THREE different games, essentially being three different levels of play for the game. You had the Basic Game, which is a very solid Dungeon Crawler board game, using card-based Dungeon Design, and other Card-Based systems. WHQ also included the Advanced Game, and the Roleplaying Game. In fact, you could consider the Advanced Game TWO seperate games with similar themes - the first is In Between Adventures, and the second being Character Advancement. Both of these were either non-existant or limited in HQ and AHQ, and you can say that the Advanced Game was the USP for WHQ. You also had the Roleplay Game, which basically added a GM that both HQ and AHQ previously required, but was entirely optional in WHQ. WHQ's main flaw was that, as good as the Advanced Game was, integrating it with the Basic Game was somewhat problematic, as you went from Card-based to Table-Based random generation systems, even when such systems weren't really suitable.

So, ideally, as has been demonstrated by the many mods for HQ, an ideal solution - and thus the basic premise of Rando-Quest - is to create a HQ game with the random dungeon generation elements of AHQ, and the advancement options from WHQ integrated from the start. Also, we will be looking at using the best random generation system possible for each part of the game.

When it comes to random generation, there are two main types of systems: Card-Based, and Table-Based. Card-based systems use a deck of cards to choose or draw from, limiting you not only to the only results in the deck, but determining the odds based on how often that card is in the deck. Each card has exactly the same chance of being drawn, multiplied by how many cards of that type are in the deck. This system is best used if you are going to have a number of unique outcomes. For example, take the Treasure Deck from HQ - you have a number of Wandering Monsters and Hazard cards, but the Treasure Cards are generally unique, with different values for treasure found.

It should be noted that Token-Based systems are a devolved form of Card-Based random generation, and for all purposes, is lumped in with that. They tend to be less efficient that actual Card-Based systems and general, and are useful when the random-generation aspects of cards are more important than the other gameplay features of the cards. They are also useful if you wish to use them as measuring devices, markers, or counters. AHQ uses a random form of Token-based generation with the GM counters, and you can see a non-random version in the Power Tokens in AHQ. You can, in almost every instance, use Card-Based and Token-Based random generation interchangeably without affecting the gameplay mechanics itself.

Table-Based Random systems uses some form of random number generator, typically dice of some sort, to determine a result that is looked up on a Table. Although the RNG does the randomness, it's looking it up on the table which determines the actual outcome. Probabilities from RNG systems can create interesting complexities like bell curves that can be used to interesting effect. Likewise, RNG modifiers can also have an effect, which is why it's not until you look at the table, you get the outcome, as there's often little difference between a natural role of a 4, a natural roll of 3 with a +1 modifier, and a natural roll of 5 with a -1 modifier. The outcomes are limited to the possibilities on the table, determined by the Table and the RNG system. This system is best used if you have a few outcomes, and as each roll on the table is a unique event, repetitions of outcomes is not a problem, if not outright desirable. The AHQ dungeon generation rules are a superior demonstration of a Table-based system.

There are numerous ways to combine Card- and Table-based systems as well. You might have Cards with Tables on them changing the actual result of when a particular card is drawn, or they might just have an RNG element to change a variable. Alternatively, you might have a Table refer to a Card-draw, such as a table outcome saying that you should Draw 2 Treasure Cards. The key is to find the right combination of random generation systems for each game, being aware that you can combine them if desired.

If we look at each game, HQ primarily uses Card-based Random Generation only for its Treasure Deck, with the other cards and decks mostly being for reference purposes. This makes the Treasure Deck a defacto primitive Event deck, although the players choose when to search for treasure, and therefore control when these "events" occur. Commonly, cautious players will often decline to search for treasure. The rest of the game is largely prescripted, so HQ is more notable for its otherwise complete lack of randomness, which it comes to random generation.

AHQ uses Table-Generation for everything, from Dungeon Generation, to Monster Encounters, to Treasure. There are tables, and tables, and tables. It's pretty much a masterclass of Table-based Random Generation. However, it also highlights the issues with using tables - repetition. Multiple corridor sections in a row might be reasonable, but not so much repetitions of Chasm Hazards or Rope in Treasure Chests. Also, it wasn't until the expansion, Terror in the Dark, that a new set of Tables for Dungeon Generation were provided, which changed the odds of finding the Quest Room, demonstrating the biggest flaw with Table Generation - you may never actually get the result you are looking for in a specific set of checks, without dice roll or table modification.

WHQ uses Card-Based Generation for the Basic Game, and can be considered a master class in Card-based random games design. With card-based Dungeons, Encounters, Events, and Treasure, playing WHQ was a delight, as although the limited sized decks meant that the games themselves were different, with each card draw resulting in a more or less unique outcome, the limited size of the decks meant that the Dungeons were finite, and there was little repetition of vital treasures or encounters unless you exhausted the deck.

The Advanced Game switched from Card-Based design to Table-Based design, mostly because they didn't print out cards, and you could immediately see the difference. Whilst the tables, using the D66 method (Essentially a Percentile role, but using 2 d6, to generate a unique outcome of 36 different results - 1-6, 11-16, 21-26, 31-36, 41-46, 51-56, and 61-66) provided a lot of options, repetition of what were supposed to be unique outcomes was a problem. GW would eventually release a number of additional cards for their decks, covering MOST of the outcomes in the Roleplay Book. It also added a lot of NEW tables for additional randomness, such as events whilst travelling to town and resupplying between adventures.

Looking at these three games, we can see the following, when it comes to random generation. Firstly, random generation is KEY for replayability of any board game that doesn't have a lot of extremely enthusiastic support. However, too much reliance on randomness can make the game become very samey, so the presence of a GM or someone else to arbite and expand the game is desirable, even if not down right vital.

Secondly, systems with a lot of unique results (such as Treasures and Events) are best handled by cards, but systems where repetition is common (such as Dungeon generation) is best done by Tables. A system such as monster encounters can be either, depending upon whether you are looking for more uniqueness or more commonality.

Finally, you needn't limit yourself to a single random generation system. You can use Cards which have Tables (like a Trap with random outcomes), but you can also have Tables which draw Cards.

This last feature is important, because I am personally inclined to make the Table and Card approach the primary method of random generation in RandoQuest. That way, you still get the ability to have unique outcomes such as special rooms, special events, and special treasures, mixed in with otherwise seemingly mundane and similar table results. The primary means of doing this will be inclusion of a "Special" entry in relevant tables, which allows you to draw cards from a deck instead. This was how generating treasure in WHQ was handled in the Advanced Game, but unfortunately, the special treasures were repeated more than the use ones like Healing Potions.

There is the big question - is handing randomness to HQ still HQ? I would say that given the Treasure Deck is a form of Randomness (as is the few times you randomly Draw an Equipment Card), randomness doesn't actually CHANGE the gameplay of HeroQuest if handled properly. I believe randomness should be able to replace the EW if desired, but is more useful serving as a tool for the EW. One of the best parts of the WHQ Roleplay Game was how the GM could use the random features of WHQ during the game so that they didn't need to pre-generate everything beforehand.

If you look at the number of additional community mods that have been added to HQ which include random generation, I don't think the community has an issue with randomness in HQ. This approach has been taken with different decks, be it Potion Decks, Evil Wizard Cards, or whatever.

This is not the whole of RandoQuest, but I wanted to share my ideas, thoughts, and experience, to see what people think (and hopefully the Mods can decide where's appropriate for this thread), and I will continue this thread (or even post new ones if I get a sub-forum) on the other areas of the game... plus, now, maybe, I might get some damn sleep! :idea:
Last edited by Daedalus on Monday March 8th, 2021 3:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Moved from General Discussion on 3/8/21.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Kurgan » Monday March 8th, 2021 12:23am

We also had occasional random Artifact draws (for the spell scrolls) in the NA games, so that exists. Interesting idea and I don't mean to say that in the overused way, it really is. I think this community proves a great number of players are open to experimenting with new ways to use the game components they already have (though creating new components is a close second). I'm not sure I would discount the longevity of the new game based on dismissing the ability to user-create quests. In the past this was limited though to you, your friends, and to a small extent the community represented in fan-zines who could distribute in print user submitted content to their small readership audience. If a subscription of the equivalent of White Dwarf magazine was included free with each purchase, I wasn't aware of it, but maybe that could be a way to keep a first time buyer/new player connected...

So in the old days they sold magazines or comics or novels that had extra quests inside. IF Hasbro was smart (nobody is assuming they are beyond reviving a profitable brand for a willing audience eager for a new product) they could create some kind of system, let's say a "community creations portal" online where you could submit your own content, maybe have it rated, featured, etc. and they could charge a small fee (or run ads, let's say). Similar to other online communities that shared material and this would in turn promote their product even more.

But we yet have no evidence they plan to do such a thing.

Integrating multiple games together is something that happens a lot here, but AHQ seems a lot less well known. I had heard of it for many years but never saw it, much less played it and I, like many others, entirely missed the run of WHQ.

I'm not sure about the name, unless it is endorsed by "the Amazing" Rando himself.

Another possible issue with a project such as this is, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that a person wanting to use this new "RandoQuest" wouldn't necessarily need to own all three games... but "any set" would do as the building block set to implement the "new rules" with, correct? Because unless they're re-releasing WHQ and AHQ, that would put the whole thing out of reach to most potential players.

I could see someone owning the Remake HQ and then printing off modular tiles for the "random rooms" which could be distributed by the community and then using their cards, dice, and miniatures with those...
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Monday March 8th, 2021 1:31am

And so, it begins... :D

Kurgan wrote:We also had occasional random Artifact draws (for the spell scrolls) in the NA games, so that exists.


The Rogar's Hall uses a Random Artefact card draw, and has an example of a Random Dread (Chaos) Spell card draw. Not to mention the shape changing Gargoyle that takes the form of different monsters when it is killed! So yeah, plenty of randomness in HQ...

Kurgan wrote:Interesting idea and I don't mean to say that in the overused way, it really is. I think this community proves a great number of players are open to experimenting with new ways to use the game components they already have (though creating new components is a close second).


Thank you. Yes, this community does show just how many players want to use components and ideas in new ways whilst keeping the feel of HQ. Plus, there's definitely a drive for creating new components, so there's a good hope that if I lack some of the skills to bring this together properly, someone around here who is interested eventually will. Likewise, I can probably find most of the "fixes" to HQ are most likely to have been covered already.

Kurgan wrote:I'm not sure I would discount the longevity of the new game based on dismissing the ability to user-create quests. In the past this was limited though to you, your friends, and to a small extent the community represented in fan-zines who could distribute in print user submitted content to their small readership audience. If a subscription of the equivalent of White Dwarf magazine was included free with each purchase, I wasn't aware of it, but maybe that could be a way to keep a first time buyer/new player connected...


Whilst fan content is important, not everyone likes to take the task of creating new material for their games. Sounds stupid, but not everyone wants to be a GM, and not everyone wants to create something for others to explore from nothing. Thus, it's useful if games provide tools to assist in this task. As such, I think it's about time some appropriate tools were included for HQ, and thanks to both AHQ, and WHQ, as well as fan components, they generally are.

Kurgan wrote:So in the old days they sold magazines or comics or novels that had extra quests inside. IF Hasbro was smart (nobody is assuming they are beyond reviving a profitable brand for a willing audience eager for a new product) they could create some kind of system, let's say a "community creations portal" online where you could submit your own content, maybe have it rated, featured, etc. and they could charge a small fee (or run ads, let's say). Similar to other online communities that shared material and this would in turn promote their product even more.

But we yet have no evidence they plan to do such a thing.


Hasbro aren't smart. We can see that. Chances are that Hasbro will complete the link to D&D by putting any digital only content like questbooks on the DMs guild, probably under some HeroQuest moniker. Mentor's Library, maybe?

Kurgan wrote:Integrating multiple games together is something that happens a lot here, but AHQ seems a lot less well known. I had heard of it for many years but never saw it, much less played it and I, like many others, entirely missed the run of WHQ.


I have noticed that. Given that both AHQ and WHQ were games solely developed by GW, they didn't get the same attention as HQ got when they were released in markets outside of the UK and areas with other GW stores. GW stores (and White Dwarf) serve(d) as the main marketing source at the time, and both of these were still growing slowly outside of the UK when these games came out. In comparison, the UK was largely saturated by GW stores by the time WHQ was released...

Kurgan wrote:I'm not sure about the name, unless it is endorsed by "the Amazing" Rando himself.


The name was a typo as I was going for "RandomQuest", but I liked how "Rando" and "Hero" both ended in that "O" sound.

Kurgan wrote:Another possible issue with a project such as this is, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that a person wanting to use this new "RandoQuest" wouldn't necessarily need to own all three games... but "any set" would do as the building block set to implement the "new rules" with, correct? Because unless they're re-releasing WHQ and AHQ, that would put the whole thing out of reach to most potential players.


It would be "advisable" to own all three games, if only for copyright issues, but my intent would be to eventually provide ALL the tools for this single game, so it's not necessary to own any of them. However, for convenience, I would look into how you could use components of all three games, if possible, as well as providing the necessary materials for those that are missing any of the games. This all comes down to copyright, but since it would technically be an own brand of an mixture of games, it would count as a derivative product, not a copy. Not that I intend to market it at this time...

Kurgan wrote:I could see someone owning the Remake HQ and then printing off modular tiles for the "random rooms" which could be distributed by the community and then using their cards, dice, and miniatures with those...


So can I. More than that, I can see a potential market for 3rd party products and POD distribution, using the argument that the costs go towards the materials, time, and labour for creating a derivative product. Technically, a derivative product is not a copy, and thus doesn't count as copyright, and as long as it is sufficiently different from source and doesn't use branding of the original, doesn't need a license either. That's why there's so many Kickstarter games for Dungeon Crawlers these days...

Maybe, with enough work, this could become a Kickstarter project, for community backing, with funds donated to the Inn and keeping people and HQ going. It's not like I have a job right now, and I am a freelance games designer, so need to keep those skills tuned up!

Seriously, I don't know where this is going right now, but [brag]as one of the production staff for the Legend of Zelda D20 Roleplaying Game,[/brag] I have the skills, alongside many here on these forums if the community content is anything to go by, to make this a reality depending on interest...
Last edited by Davane on Monday March 8th, 2021 3:20am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Kurgan » Monday March 8th, 2021 2:50am

New print and play rules and custom content is what has fueled the inn for decades. A generic freeware version of HeroQuest with AHQ and WHQ sound-alike rules, hmm... that would certainly open it up rather than just being a custom mod for elite collectors. Then again a community of small indie gamers might be pretty small too (unless it really catches on).

For my gaming circle (including my family) one of the most fun things is to be the bad guy GM. Lots of desire for option of a GM-less game though, so I guess there's that.


Then again, some of the best games start out as somebody just crafting a game that they and their family really wanted to play. If its already fun, you just have to get the word out, and if it's free, why not give it a try? I look forward to hearing more about it. I don't know about consulting tables, to me flipping cards and rolling dice to make things happen sounds like more fun, but maybe that's just me.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Monday March 8th, 2021 3:30am

Kurgan wrote:New print and play rules and custom content is what has fueled the inn for decades. A generic freeware version of HeroQuest with AHQ and WHQ sound-alike rules, hmm... that would certainly open it up rather than just being a custom mod for elite collectors. Then again a community of small indie gamers might be pretty small too (unless it really catches on).


Options, options, options...

Kurgan wrote:For my gaming circle (including my family) one of the most fun things is to be the bad guy GM. Lots of desire for option of a GM-less game though, so I guess there's that.


The point of RandoQuest is to add that GM-less option, because whilst being a bad-guy GM is fun, sometimes they just want to play too. Plus, it also allows for that solo option for when you want to play a game, but can't meet up with your gaming buddies because of a pandemic, or whatever...

Kurgan wrote:Then again, some of the best games start out as somebody just crafting a game that they and their family really wanted to play. If its already fun, you just have to get the word out, and if it's free, why not give it a try? I look forward to hearing more about it.


D&D started out that way, and there's not a lot of difference between homebrew rules and creating a new game, because it's hard to tell when a game counts as being new. That's why copyright law allows for derivative products that are "just different enough" to bypass copyright...

Kurgan wrote:I don't know about consulting tables, to me flipping cards and rolling dice to make things happen sounds like more fun, but maybe that's just me.


The tactile edge of cards cannot be understated, and it's worth noting that both HQ and WHQ used cards for more than just random generation - cards are useful for keeping track of things too. AHQ lacked that level to tactile goodness, but it did have Dungeon Counters for the GM, and the modular dungeon pieces were great to put together...
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby cornixt » Monday March 8th, 2021 11:18am

I wasn't the first to do it, nor will I be the last, but here was my solution to generating random quests that still felt like HQ:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/1016 ... uest-cards
You just draw a card appropriate for the size of the room, roll 2D6 for randomisation, and it tells you where to put the monsters and furniture, relative to where you entered.


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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Monday March 8th, 2021 11:27am

cornixt wrote:I wasn't the first to do it, nor will I be the last, but here was my solution to generating random quests that still felt like HQ:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/1016 ... uest-cards
You just draw a card appropriate for the size of the room, roll 2D6 for randomisation, and it tells you where to put the monsters and furniture, relative to where you entered.


Thank you for that. I will be sure to take a look.

Both AHQ and WHQ featured randomness extensively, and WHQ did feel a lot like HQ without a fixed board. Likewise, AHQ actually included a randomisation system for using the HQ board, which I will cribbing for the main part of the randomness I expect.

I believe that a table and card system is probably the best approach, and it seems like your random cards might be just the ticket for those Special rooms...
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Monday March 8th, 2021 5:04pm

Something like this can take a lot of time and organisation, and I find that it is always best to start by thinking about and visualising what you need for the game. I actually own all THREE games (HQ, AHQ, and WHQ), and thus have access to all of the rulebooks (plus, for missing expansions and packs, I can get access to them online easily enough). I've already looked at the USPs of each game, and what we will be taking from it in broad strokes, so it's time to break that down into the smaller details necessary for play.

Having already taken the decision to use the core mechanics from HQ as a basis, the Random Dungeon Generation of AHQ, and the Advancement Material from WHQ, it makes sense to use the HeroQuest rulebook (the instruction book) to serve as a basic outline for the project, adding in the relevant information from the other sources, before moving on to dungeon generation and character advancement as later chapters. So our first task will be to collate and compare the various systems.

Rulebook collation is a simple task, and a by product, of the comparison process we need, so I will also hopefully be able to provide these rulebook compilations as well, so anyone lacking any of these materials can have access to them. Most collation projects have already been done, but it helps me process the information if I go over the collation process myself. It's a little more work for me, but I enjoy it, so what the hell.

Official expansions will be included, so Terror in the Dark for AHQ, and Lair of the Orc Lord and Catacombs of Terror will be included for WHQ. The rules sections of the Quest Packs for HQ (KK, RotWL, AtOH, WoM, BQP, and EQP) will be included, but the quests themselves will not to begin with. The specific quest sections for AHQ, TitD, WQRPB, LotOL, and CoT will also not be included right now, but the random quest content will. Nothing from WD or similar publications will be included at this time.

Cards and other components will not necessarily be included right now. Both HQ and WHQ contained a lot of cards and other components that, if required by RandoQuest, will be present in a text format, possibly in a list or table for easy prototyping and testing.

Since HQ contains various versions, I will be collating the various English Language editions (UK 1st, UK 2nd, and US) as well, into a single system, but will look towards using whichever version is best, or integrating them together. Since NuHQ is supposed to be an essential reprint of the original US edition, I am going to assume that it will be unchanged until I recieve my copy, at which point I will backtrack to include any relevent changes into RandoQuest.

Finally, all Lore from the games will be stripped, if only for copyright purposes. I may discuss any important lore (magic, I'm looking at you), but will NOT be included in either the rulebook compilations, or the final rulebook for RandoQuest. Creative writing is a lot easier to protect under copyright lore than game play mechanics, which can be argued as Fair Use for Educational Purposes/Archival Purposes.

I hope you look forward to a very detailed deep dive of HQ, AHQ, and WHQ, because if you can't recreate these games from my posts alone, I haven't finished my task. So ultimately, you should end up with FOUR Rulebooks from the RandoQuest project - HQ, AHQ, WHQ, and RDQ. (I can't use RQ, since that's RuneQuest!)
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Monday March 8th, 2021 6:14pm

I am partial to how the rules were presented in the 1st UK edition of HQ, as it made sense to have the Way of the Warrior, Way of the Wizard, and Way of the Scout as a learning process. Initially, we can follow the "Way of the..." format for titling chapters that come from AHQ and WHQ, and there will probably be a LOT of them. So, let's dive in to the HQ rulenook (UK 1st Edition) and see what we'll begin with:

There's a lot of preamble to start with, which we aren't really interested in right now - there's the Cover, inside cover intro lore, Heroquest Contents listing a LOT of components in the base game, a note that the minis are designed by Citadel Miniatures, some assembly instructions (including see inside lid for details), a note that HeroQuest is a trademark OWNED by Games Workshop (Interesting, but irrelevant). Reaching page 4 already, we get the Introduction "Hero Quest is a game of adventure...", Starting the Game, Choosing Roles, and finally Setting up the Game. All very important for presenting a complete package, but not for our initial rulebook compilation. The first thing we actually care about is the information regarding Character Boards and Sheets. So, let's take a moment to clear the preamble from the other editions of HQ.

In the UK 2nd Edition, we get a bit more preamble - Cover, Lore, Contents with the Citadel Miniatures notice, Assembly (including see inside of box). Interestingly, the Trademark owned by GW notice is gone, as we move on to the Introduction. New content here - as there's an About these Rules sections that explains the Introductory Game and the Full Game (switching away from the "Way of" learning structure, but still basically Combat, then everything else), followed by an Outline of the Game, which basically presents a bite size summary of the main rules. After that, it's back to Choosing Roles and Setting Up the Game. Finally, we get to Character Boards and Sheets.

The US edition has a somewhat different layout to the UK Editions. There's still preamble, as follows. Cover, Blank Inside Cover, Lore, A Brief Introduction, What Makes HQ Unique, Contents (No notes about Citadel Miniatures OR Games Workshop), Assembly, Getting Started, Choose Your Role, and How Zargon Uses This Book. Then we get to Setting Up the Game, which contains the section on Character Cards that we are interested in, and then a final bit of introduction before we get to any actual rules. It seems a bit odd that the details for Characters cards would become preamble, almost as if the Character Cards weren't as important to the US version of HQ.

You might be wondering why I skipped things like Choosing Roles and Setting Up the Game as preamble. Well, the simple answer is that these aspects are assumed when it comes to playing a game - that is, people know who they are playing, and will set up the components appropriately. Thus, these aren't actually rules, but more like instructions, that serve as the beginning of the game, and are technically about as relevant as adding the instruction to "open the box." Plus, as useful as it is to know the roles, and how to set up the components of the game, this all makes much more sense when you actually KNOW what the components of the game are going to be.

This is all preamble, because a standardised method of writing is to "Tell the reader what you are going to tell them, tell the reader what you tell them, then tell the reader what you told them." This is the "Introduction, Content, Conclusion" method, and you will find this in all sorts of works, at all sorts of levels within any written product. In fact, you will often see separate introductions and conclusions for sections, chapters, and the product as a whole, all nested in together to make a neat package that covers whatever content you are providing. This isn't just passing, but a way of signposting where content is, so you don't necessarily get lost in the product. Also, repeating things in triplicate helps learning and memorisation of details, or at least where to find them if you need them.

As an interesting aside, rulebooks, manuals, and other references tend to skip the "Conclusion", a either just end, or go into appendices and/or index/glossary/bibliography, even now. This is because there's technically no conclusion to such content, which can be continually updated and collated to. It also encourages the work to be used a reference rather than implying that you are supposed to know this information by the time you finish. It's a fairly neat little writing and design trick, that helps if multiple people are working on a document, be they writers or editors, whether it's stand alone, or part of a longer product or series.

All we really need to note is that HQ has the role of Evil Wizard, and a role for each Hero Player Character. It's also worth noting that the game assumes that there will be four Heroes. Thus, optimally, there will be five roles in each game, with one role per Player, but if there are fewer than 5 players, some of the Hero players can take multiple Hero roles, as using less than four heroes makes the quests harder. Pretty standard for a game with pre scripted adventure details and information to be hidden from the Heroes, like HQ.

By understanding the wrapping of the text, we can unwrap it to help is in combining the information we need into a single rulebook. We can discover where information is designed to go, before setting about wrapping it up again in the new layout of the product.

With the preamble for the rulebooks out of the way, we can finally start looking at the rules themselves, starting with Characters, listed as Character Boards/Cards and detailing the information presented.

If anyone wants to follow along, you can download all three HQ rulebooks from Ye Olde Inn...
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

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Davane

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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Shadzar » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 12:28am

Davane wrote:The click-baity title is because of what I perceive to be the biggest flaw in HQ - issues regarding replay-ability and randomness. In it's own right, HQ is a great game, but once you have exhausted all the quest packs and so forth, unless you are in to designing your own quests, the game itself offers no real replay-ability.


Already had that idea and working on it since 2016

Image

there would be 16 boards selected at a 4d4 roll, and each board would orient differently and another d4 roll. The first 3 boards would always be the same board, but a d4 roll to determine which way they faced.

This would allow players to get trapped at dead-ends and have to backtrack, and each player could go different directions or stay together. treasure and monsters would also be random based on a chart that goes with each board. so while Board 12 might always have the same types of monsters living on it, they werent always in the same places, and the board itself wouldnt always be after a set pattern of other boards.

I got the idea form original Diablo dungeon randomization and was going based on that.

Obviously you could go as many deep as you wanted until you found the "goal" which could also be randomized after the 3rd board/levl.

In case of backtracking, the GM would need to track placement of everything from the start as you go to be able to swap out boards and put them back to ascned the levels again to find the right route to whatever the goal was.

It stalled out for lack of art assets to use.
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