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Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Gold Bearer » Saturday July 20th, 2024 10:18am

It's actually true, damn.
Is there a topic that lists all the changes and all the new heroes/monsters/spells/items from the expansions? There's a LOT to go through in this one.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

Expanded Combined Spells: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4296

A psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it. - Terence McKenna
DMT - The Spirit Molecule: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwZqVqbkyLM


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Hosted a Play-by-Post game. Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Destroyed a Zombie! Shattered a Skeleton! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Gold Bearer

Crossbowman
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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » Saturday July 20th, 2024 5:19pm

Well that takes all the fun out of it!

The "Errata" thread lists all the changes between Haslab and retail releases (and what remains uncorrected).

Let me summarize... as if we were comparing the North American edition many of us grew up with to the Remake editions created by Avalon Hill.

CONTENTS: THEN VS NOW
The Haslab crowd-funding campaign (Oct-Nov 2020) either gave you two boxes (Heroic tier): the Game System and a small box containing Sir Ragnar in red plastic as a prisoner as well as female versions of the Barbarian/Elf/Dwarf and a male version of the Elf... because the default Elf was now female).... or five boxes (Mythic tier): the two aforementioned boxes as well as Kellar's Keep, Return of the Witch Lord and a box of "mythic" stretch goals including three new quest books (Prophecy of Telor with 13 new quests by Stephen Baker; Spirit Queen's Torment with 14 new quests by Teos Abadia; Crypt of Pereptual Darkness with 10 new quests by Joe Manganiello) as well as 2 copies each of alternate sculpts of each of the monsters except the Dread Sorcerer and the Gargoyle which had only one copy each, as well as six extra white combat dice, an undead colored "Witch Lord" figure, a red "Mentor" figure who can serve as an alternate wizard with his own character card and identical stats, 3 brand new heroes in red plastic with their own character cards as well as 3 spell cards each namely a male 5 BP Orc Bard who begins with a 2 attack diagonal weapon and can heal others/boost damage/put enemy to sleep... a female 6 BP Druid who starts with a dagger and can't wear metal armor who can boost her attack & defense/heal/reveal traps & secret doors or heal again.... a female halfling 4 BP Warlock with wizard restrictions on gear who can avoid damage/hover over traps/boost attack and carries a unique ranged weapon of 2 dice attack... and each of those heroes can "regain" one of their spells under certain conditions but no other directions are given for their use except the Bard who can serve to take over after another hero dies for the first time in Spirit Queen's Torment... a sheet of new tiles specifically designed for Joe's quest book including "acid traps," "grasping vine traps," "flaming dread skulls," and a double sided tile that had a tavern/inn on one side and a "dragon temple" on the other... and last but not least a gray, single square "Dragon" called Venim which is the final boss of Joe's quest book and designated by him as "proprietary"). The Crypt of Perpetual Darkness questbook also explicitly calls for assets found in KK & ROTWL and included two exclusive artifact cards: the Dragon Spear & Crown of Shadows (CoPD has never been released into retail though fan rumors persist it will be one day).

Rogar's Hall (a "training Quest" by Stephen Baker, the first HQ adventure he'd written in 30 years) was released digitally to coincide with the crowd funding campaign that was open to US & Canada, the UK, New Zealand and Australia (all English speaking regions as there were no foreign language versions at that time, also no regional differences although later it was noted there were translation problems for the retail version such as the word "Chaos" slipping back into some boxes or cards needing to be replaced due to faulty translations mostly in the Spanish version if I recall correctly). This quest was deemed far too difficult as a "training" quest but thankfully he also labelled it as a "challenge of the greatest heroes" kind of a new adventure for veteran players to shake off the dust and the rust of the past in anticipation of the new release. This is the only official suggested use of the new "Mentor" figure (which was exclusive to the Mythic tier) as an NPC. In actual practice you can easily use the Dread Sorcerer (Chaos Warlock) to represent him if you don't have the Mentor piece.

DICE:
The six sided combat dice are larger (with re-designed symbols corresponding to the old dice with 3 skulls, 2 white "hero" shields, and 1 black "monster" shield), made of plastic and have pointed corners (vs. the rounded corners of the original which were made of painted wood). The Symbols are inscribed and painted black but many noted the poor quality control on these at least in the Haslab version (the retail versions improved, or in the case of the 2022 slim box, significantly improved in terms of consistency). The red d6's used for movement are pretty generic Hasbro board game dice, having the pointed corners and white painted pips (instead of the shiny gold of the original). Later expansions introduced translucent colored versions of the combat dice which were slightly smaller (perhaps 1 mm difference) and painted with white (or in the case of the special Dread Veil dice, purple) symbols. Presumably the shape of the dice was down to designer preferences but also presumably to result in fewer "cockeyed" (or "canted") rolls.

RULES/SETTING:

The remake Game System (2021) is based upon the NA edition of 1990, but uses word substitutions to obscure the GamesWorkShop Warhammer Fantasy lore it was loosely based upon (Chaos changed to Dread, World's Edge Mountains become World's End Mountains, Fimir become Abominations a new sculpt and more vague description, Goblins no longer mentioned as being slaves to Orcs, Dread Warriors replace Chaos Warriors and it no longer calls them "slaves to darkness," Sea of Claws becomes Sea of Talons, Zargon is given generic pronouns and never explicitly referred to as male, its hinted that only Orcs allied with evil sorcerers are evil and they are no longer described as delighting in cruelty and slaughter). It jettisons the Armory Board (but not the concept of the Armory) in favor of an Equipment Deck that includes extra copies of certain cards (Shield, Helmet, Crossbow, Battle Axe, Longsword) as well as brand new artifacts (that are never found in the 14 quests, because they were designed for Spirit Queen's Torment, Prophecy of Telor and Crypt of Perpetual Darkness, the first two being now available in retail)... The Rod of Telekinesis (Tempest casting item with a chance for monster to resist), Phantom Blade (non-throwable dagger with a chance for an unblockable hit once per quest), Ring of Fortitude (like the Talisman of Lore but for Body Points.. this is also found as a special treasure in digital quest "New Beginnings) and Fortune's Longsword (like the regular LS but with a chance to reroll a die once per quest... also since it's an Artifact it can't be Rusted). Cards inspired by the European 1st edition are included: Hand Axe weapon (2 dice, throwable), Holy Water (though now its an equipment card instead of treasure, cost of 400 gold coins), Potion of Speed (another former Treasure turned Equipment card, for 200 gold coins), and Bracers (from EU 2nd edition) have been added but they're very expensive (450 gold coins) and described as being made of leather (Wizard can use as armor). They are not limited, this time, to the Wizard however. There is no Cloak of Protection (having been replaced in the old NA edition with the Wizard's Cloak artifact) or Spear this time. Despite the duplicates of some cards, the Rulebook does declare that cards do NOT limit supply, and these items can be purchased from the armory even if no cards are available for everyone who wants them (the EU edition limited equipment by cards but that was revised in the Adventure Design Kit of '91 which included a new character sheet design by the way).

The only other card clarifications we see are that Borin's Armor can explicitly be combined with a helmet (despite the artwork showing a fancy helmet with it). The wording of Courage is a little less clear, but implies the same mechanics as the NA edition... however in the official Avalon Hill discord, Avalon Bill, the PR guy for the HeroQuest team at the time, passed along word from rules designer Doug Hopkins that they intended Courage to only work for ONE attack. Meaning it was back to the mechanics of Courage as it was in the first edition of HQ from 1989 (where it was the same as a Potion of Strength). This was a nerf I didn't like as did several others, as it was made actually weaker than the potion, because it was implied the spell could be wasted if it was cast and the monsters moved away, but even if it could attack it was only good for one single roll.

Though not mentioned on the cards explicitly, Avalon Hill also clarified on social media that they intended the Crossbow to be able to hit any diagonal square within Line of Sight, including the four close diagonal squares (the original card and Armory Board only says it can't hit adjacent targets, but if you can "see" a monster, otherwise you can hit them).

The instructions booklet is slightly re-arranged and re-worded but everything is identical to the 1990 NA edition except the paragraph urging the Wizard to save his gold to afford powerful magical items available in future expansions is deleted (this is because they had no plans to finish and release the Wizard Quest Pack that was originally supposed to be released in '92 or '93 but was cancelled along with the franchise back then due to product margin concerns).

MINIATURES/ART:

The character figures all have round bases that resemble an inverted saucer fitting a 1 inch square (vs. the originals that resembled 22mm squares but were really squished hexagons that were 25mm at their widest points).

The remake monster sculpts now include female versions of Orcs and goblins (female Mummies, Zombies, Abominations, Dread Warriors, and Dread Sorcerer were only included in the Mythic set from the Haslab campaign but these alternate sculpts also made their way into the Spirit Queen's Torment and Prophecy of Telor retail boxes, same with the alternate gargoyle).

FURNITURE:

Regarding the furniture... the skulls are actually on sprues (the Rats are the easiest to shoot like a slingshot out of the candy trays when you try to remove them, good luck not losing them!). Unlike the original, there are no "peg holes" for these decorations, so if you want to put them on your furniture you are either just balancing them on top, or securing them with glue, or perhaps sticky tak (the latter is my solution). The coffin lid on the "tomb" (which now depicts a helmeted figure rather than an elf-like figure) is removable, but sadly you can't actually fit a character figure securely inside it (due to the round base sticking out), but you can use it to store your rats/skulls, and maybe hide a treasure chest (though I recommend securing the lid with sticky tack to avoid spilling the whole thing on your floor by accident).

Zombies carry swords and shields instead of hog splitter axes. Skeletons have the remnants of armor or clothing over their bones. Mummy is doing the "walk like an egyptian" pose. Abominations are web fingered, fish faced, tail-less, swamp creatures that carry multi-bladed spears (replacing the battle axe wielding, club tailed, cyclopian Fimir).. and their dynamic poses mean they crowd the even enlarged board in this case (the Mythic spear-less "female" variant is far less crowding).

Monsters that might have previously had "Chaos" emblems on their outfits instead have a kind of anarchy symbol inspired logo that also resembles the Avalon Hill logo a bit. Dread Warriors have horns that point downward rather than upward (and without the "ball" between them). Dread Sorcerer wields a staff and has a kind of crown on instead of the Chaos Symbol and sports a "touchdown" pose of the original (though this look would be revived with the "Cultist" character in Rise of the Dread Moon expansion and "Blightweaver" characters of Jungles of Delthrak).

The Elf hero is female by default, and wears some kind of plate armor and like the Wizard, has an arm outstretched as if aiming a spell (or about to tap someone on the shoulder). The Dwarf has a huge axe and is in an action pose instead of resting on it like the original. Wizard's staff has a crescent moon shape on the end.

All artwork is redone. Furniture is all plastic (in either a single shade of brown or gray) and most of it is slightly smaller than the classic originals. Dice are slightly larger, done in plastic, and with squared off corners instead of rounded. Character sheets are on slightly larger and thicker paper but relays the same information even if the font and battle axe art is clearly different from the classic. Quest booklet and Rulebook (Instructions) are printed in full color on glossy paper with thread stitching instead of the limited colors (orange, brown, green, etc) and plain paper stapled of the 1990 NA Edition.

BOX:

The 2021 Box is HUGE, and traps a lot of air inside, so it takes awhile to open when full, etc. Instead of the figures being made of a model kit stiff type polystyrene, they are made of a bendier plastic similar to what was used in the Reaper "Bones" miniatures (made in China). The characters (and the weapons rack) are noticeably bendier than the furniture pieces. Poses of the miniatures are done in a more dynamic, almost comic style reminiscent of World of Warcraft or various anime. Inside the box are plastic vacuuform style "candy trays" that hold the miniatures and they are in there VERY tight (many people throw these away because they are so cumbersome and annoying when the game is played frequently). The trays are encased in cardboard sleeves that resemble the cover art (which of course is inspired by the original Les Edwards cover but done in a more "modern" comic style). There's a white coardboard space filler at the bottom of the box that probably was added after the Mythic goals were met and they shunted those extras off into their own box). The inside of the box lids is just brown cardboard instead of being white with the printed assembly instructions like the original. Why? Because the minis are all pre-assembled... (sometimes poorly in the case of the Haslab sets that were rushed off) without any need for sprues. You will be punching out the tiles however, which are all scaled up to the larger size board (with 1x1 squares.. that 25.4 mm instead of the 22x22 mm of the original).

The Haslab boxes (& the 1st retail versions of Game System, KK & ROTWL) are secured shut with annoying "tape circles" that many found hard to remove without ripping the paper or leaving behind a sticky residue (partially cutting them with a sharp blade and applying a hairdryer to slowly and painstakingly peel them off was a popular solution).

The mini box (with the sex-swapped heroes and Sir Ragnar prisoner figure) and the Mythic box (containing the 3 new heroes and their cards, the "Mentor" and "Witch Lord" figures as well as the stretch goal monsters, 3 new quest books and Joe's proprietary tile sheet and dragon) had a smooth finish on the outside and depicted a barbarian on one side and the dragon on the other. This box now goes for ridiculous amounts online, though thankfully most of its contents have appeared in other forms in retail (see below). Thus far the sex swapped heroes have not been re-released, but a (in my humble opinion) superior sculpt of the male Elf hero was included in Mage of the Mirror's remake and a superior (again in my humble opinion) sculpt of the female Barbarian was included in the remake of the Frozen Horror. While no female Dwarf hero has been officially released at the time of this writing, the (Dwarven) Explorer heroes from Jungles of Delthrak are pretty cool (and the Berserker hero, with male and female versions, is also called a Barbarian).

The GS box itself has a light linen finish (still annoying to open!), same as KK & ROTWL (MOTM & ROTDM progressively more pronounced linen while later expansions had practically none).

TILES:

Tiles, like the board, now have a linen finish on both sides (KK & ROTWL in the Mythic set had just a matte white "unfinished" side on the reverse, while the retail versions have black linen finish on the reverse side of its tiles). There is also a bonus "mystery tile" whose use is not explained... depicting the new "Mentor eye seal" on one side and the "Zargon skull" symbol on the other. The first and only official use for it is suggested in the official digital quest "Into the Northlands" (a suggested prelude, with some quest fixes for Zargon and bonus artifacts) where it is used to represent a wolf animal companion to a solo hero.

Formerly some tiles were just black on the reverse side (Spiral Stairway, Double blocked squares), but now they have alternate artwork on the back. The use of this new artwork is not explained, but left to your imagination (Stairway has a non-spiral staircase on the back while the double blocked squares have arched sewer gratings on the back). If you were one of those kids who used them as "really big pits" you may have to use your imagination more with this set (or cut your own out of paper!).

BOARD:

The gameboard is missing the "boot tile" but otherwise the art is pretty much inspired by the original and the images are very clear and sharp in the larger size. The "HeroQuest" logo boarder is placed on the right edge of the board instead of the bottom, and the whole thing is done with linen finish on the art side, and is a quad fold, with "invisible" seams on the edges. The idea is to make sure that the squares are bigger (25.4mm square instead of 22mm square). It folds nicely into the box, but some have commented that their Haslab boards have ripped along the seams over time.

GM SCREEN:

The GM screen is slightly larger than before (and linen textured like the rest of the cardboard), and both in the promotional materials and interviews Stephen Baker and the AH team have clarified the white bearded man (who now sports braids) dressed in the red and black cape with the book in hand is actually meant to be Mentor, and it was Mentor all along (he's still Zargon to me, dang it!).

CHARACTER CARDS:

Character boards/tiles for the heroes are replaced with regular cards. Each hero has a card with their stats on one side and an introduction to the hero on the other side. There is a separate card for each that just says HeroQuest on one side and on the other has a description of what can be done on a turn (so no having to flip them over as you play to read both sides I suppose).

The game cards are all Poker size with a light linen finish and the style is done in a browned parchment as the main background. The artwork on the front (text) side is still in a monochromatic sepia style and the backs are still done in a painted style similar to the NA edition. There are no new treasure cards, but the pit Hazards all depict the spikes like the European versions (rather than just the generic hole you fall into in the NA edition).

Minis are still differentiated by color (heroes in red, undead in off white, green monsters in green, dread in gray... furniture mostly brown but with some gray).

QUESTBOOK:

The quests are identical but again little subtle textual changes like that Uller's ghost is no longer referred to as "mad."

Even the glitch with the Pit trap next to an unmarked Treasure chest in the Legacy of the Orc Warlord that was introduced in the 1990 NA edition has been faithfully reproduced here!

Now the lore of the Orcs is altered a bit in Spirit Queen's Torment... where it is revealed that in the past there were good orcs (and even now there are Orc Allies and even some Orc heroes, that can join you). Outside of SQT this isn't really discussed. It is noteworthy that the digital quest "New Beginnings" once again restores that the Orcs "delight in cruelty and slaughter."

Spirit Queen's Torment and Prophecy of Telor re-use the Mythic stretch goal alternate monster sculpts, but now in transparent colored plastic (green for SQT, orange for PoT). Both sets also include a set of combat dice in that expansion's colors (and the covers have a holographic shine to them).

New Beginnings establishes that some of the rules introduced in Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror are intended to be used all along, such as how you pass items between heroes.

AVAILABILITY/MARKETING:

Between the 2021 retail box and the 2022 slim box, the price was about the same (the Game System in retail was originally MSRP of $124.99 but then was raised to $134.99... similarly KK & ROTWL initially appeared on HasbroPulse for $24.99 each then raised to $34.99.... of course retailers like Amazon quickly lowered the price as time went on.). Eventually each were about the same price or varied only a negligible amount even including shipping. The slim box was somewhat lighter and smaller of course.

Each larger expansion since then retails for $44.99 and the price remains static throughout its run. The exceptions are the small hero collection boxes that varied from $14.99 (Guardian Knight which quickly sold out and became scalper fodder going for hundreds of dollars after a short while) to $15.99. Spirit Queen's Torment and Prophecy of Telor started at $33.99.

At first remake HQ was only available in a few English speaking regions (US & Canada excluding Quebec, UK, Australia, New Zealand), but has expanded to other places in German, French, Italian, and Spanish. Hasbro Spain has received many complaints over the translation quality as well as the fact that although they re-stock the Game System in Spanish, the Spanish editions of the Expansions tend to sell out quickly and are not re-stocked, hence fans are said to be importing the English edition and doing fan translations.

Many language groups and nations that got HeroQuest in the classic era ('89-93) have not yet gotten remake HeroQuest, so fans tend to import it from other regions. Not all expansions are available in all languages (though this situation may be changing) with the main ones that remain officially in English only are the free digital quests (unless accessed through the Companion App) with the exception of Knightfall and the Path of the Wandering Monk hero collection. Interestingly while there is no official Polish version of remake HQ, it can be viewed in that language in the Companion App (while the audio narration in the App remains English only).

Expansion titles and dates tend to be leaked on social media or through anonymous sources sometime in advance. Official release dates tend to be moved up and even so most releases have been obtained by fans about a month in advance of the official date, often through Amazon. Priority is occasionally given to premium members on HasbroPulse, but usually other retailers get them before pre-orders from Pulse.

At first only online shops carried HeroQuest (besides HasbroPulse, BestBuy.com, Walmart.com, EntertainmentEarth, BigBadToyStore, Zavi, EB Games, and a few other local equivalents of these online stores). Copies started to show up at FLGS (Friendly Local Game Shops) usually at or slightly below MSRP in the English speaking countries and then in other places. During the holiday season HeroQuest started appearing at retail brick and mortar stores like Ollie's and Fleet Farms (and local equivalents). The original HQ was sold at toy stores and advertised on TV during saturday morning or afterschool cartoons but that was the early 90's. Now the advertising consists mainly of word of mouth online, social media posts (X/twitter, instagram, facebook, youtube), appearances at game conventions & trade shows (especially major ones like GenCon, Spiel Essen, UK Gaming Expo, and LUCCA).

Avalon Hill launched their own discord channel to promote HeroQuest, HeroScape (now handled by Renegade Studios in retail after the failure of the Haslab relaunch attempt) but after the Hasbro layoffs of December 2023 (which saw the firing of project leader Chris Nadeau aka Encarmine and social media guy Avalon Bill aka Bill Mort) the moderators of the channel become mostly silent, though HeroQuest head rules writer (and frequent quest writer) Doug Hopkins aka Wandering Monster has appeared from time to time more recently to answer questions (mostly rule clarifications, he passes on other questions to other members of the team at AH). The animated video promos narrated by Stephen Baker (a freelance vendor and semi-retired independent developer these days, formerly of Milton Bradley and collaborator with GamesWorkShop until c.1992) ceased to be created after the Rogue Heir of Elethorn along with the practice of the free digital releases. The activity and presence of AH at game conventions to promote HeroQuest has increased since before the layoffs and this doesn't seem to have been scaled back (as some feared) following the layoffs.

The Hero Collections Rogue Heir of Elethorn and Path of the Wandering Monk have been sold out on HasbroPulse for some time, but after the Guardian Knight debacle, Avalon Hill had pledged that these and future releases would not to be limited run or exclusive (the only exclusives were allowing premium members to pre-order early for example in the case of the Dread Veil Dice or the SQT/PoT releases).

A very quick sale appeared on Pulse where a small quantity of unsold copies of the Mythic set were sold to premium members only (which sold out predictably fast), though at least one fan commented that he was able to purchase using the official Hasbro Pulse App without having such a subscription.

RETAIL RELEASE/UPDATED VERSION:

In 2022 a new version of the retail game system was released. While the 2021 retail version was identical to the one sold with the Haslab Heroic and Mythic tiers, this one is notable for a few reasons:

The quality control was noticeably higher on this one with the dice images and the gluing of the miniatures standouts in terms of improved presentation while the designs remained the same.

It is secured with Shrink Wrap instead of the very annoying "tape circles" that were placed at the edges of the box to seal it shut (sadly these are still used for KK & ROTWL in retail though a newer retail version is rumored to exist, I haven't seen it).

The "candy trays" inside are superior, in that they are loose enough to easily remove the majority of the figures without difficulty... no more worries about breaking them or throwing them across the room, and probably fewer bent figures that need to be soaked in boiling water to straighten each time... or risk rubbing off your paint! There's a second clear plastic cover that goes over each candy tray, so far superior packing, and less wasted space. The overall box is "slim" compared to the earlier version.

The "helmet" equipment card has the word "metal" inserted into the text (a copy of this same card was included with Rise of the Dread Moon to give clarity to those who didn't buy this version of the game system). This is to explain how they are not to be used by the Druid or Rogue heroes (or the Bard hero if he's wanting his 1 die defense bonus), not just unusable by the Wizard & Warlock.

The "Handaxe" equipment card in the previous box lacked the "may not be used by the Wizard" text, so in theory he could use it (even though the European original didn't allow him to). This sentence has been added in the 2022 printing, and this card was also included in the Rise of the Dread Moon expansion.

Contrary to early fears, all of the extra cards (the new artifacts) are still included in the 2022 edition. You can tell at a glance which is which by the fact that the new box has the white "Iceberg" Avalon Hill logo in the lower right corner, instead of the old red and yellow "flag" Avalon Hill logo.

I've heard rumors (screenshots of the cover are the only proof I've seen so far) of a revised edition of Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord with the new logo, but so far I've only seen in stores the red/yellow flag logo with the tape circles for these editions.

BOARD GAME COMPANION APP/DIGITAL CONTENT CONT'D:

A free program (on iphone and android) to take over the role of Zargon and allow you to play solo and/or only with heroes was released shortly after the first release (it took a year of waiting from the time the Haslab campaign finished to the first copies shipped out... and the first retail version of the Game System shipped approximately the same time, this being Oct/Nov of 2021). The digital Companion App right away included all of the Mythic exclusive heroes, allowing even those who didn't own the Mythic set to re-create and use them in their own adventures (but no Mythic questbooks were included).

The App starts with only the Game System and Kellar's Keep. You can update it (for free) to download each additional expansion, and the "Pulse" quests (the free digital online quests). It includes voice acting only in English, but the text includes some language translations (like Polish) that don't exist in the print versions of the Avalon Hill HeroQuest.

Earlier versions of the App included more of the cards and text, which theoretically allowed fans who didn't own the game to re-construct/re-create the game based on the App content to a limited extent. This was potentially a useful thing for translations and for those who missed out on the Mythic content, but subsequent versions removed much of this. The point behind the App was not to be a complete replacement for the physical board game, but truly as a "companion." Hence, using the App one is on the "honor system" where many things still require some physical component. For example the Treasure Deck is appealed to, but the outcome is known only to the players who draw a physical card or click the "wandering monster" button. Zargon's turn can be skipped and monsters can not be moved (except Skeletons, using the Bone Wand) but can be killed at the touch of a button. Many functions require the player to handle, like hero attack rolls, defensive rolls for both monsters and heroes, determining Line of Sight on a few things besides spells. Many functions simply say "follow the cards instructions" without showing the full card text onscreen but only a generic placeholder. The App does introduce new art and some extra voice work and some generic onscreen effects. At times the App glitches or exhibits behavior not consistent with the game rules (or even how it has been clarified online by Avalon Hill members). Settings exist that let you toggle "intangible furniture" and later options were added for "monsters attack weak" (go after lowest body point enemy within their movement range), as well as "advanced skeletons" (able to attack diagonally), "advanced goblins" (able to move, attack, and use the rest of their movement). Initial complaints about the App were the lack of landscape mode for tablets (which was quickly updated) and the poor A.I. of the monsters (which has improved somewhat since that time). As of right now the last update was 3.1 (3.0 introduced Against the Ogre Horde).

Some things have taken a long time to be added to the App (or remain missing) from the official releases. CoPD was never added to the App (being an "exclusive," and Joe Manganiello revealed publicly that although this stretch goal was not reached, he was able to convince Hasbro to release it anyway, along with the stretch goal right below his that of the alternate sculpt for the Gargoyle... the latter was released into retail but his "proprietary" dragon, tilesheet, and quest book were not). Rogar's Hall has been detected in the app (via the audio narration files) but it is not yet playable. The ROTDM version of the Guardian Knight is not present, nor are the ATOH versions of the Druid selectable. Of course these characters are identical in mechanics to their earlier versions (hero collection Guardian Knight limited run edition and Mythic haslab Druid) so they are still easily playable (however alternate versions of the other characters were included... meaning all the sex swapped versions of the Heroes that were only available in the Haslab campaign are there as well as the alternate Barbarian and alternate Elf from Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror respectively as the only difference is the card art & icon that appears onscreen while playing to represent the position of your miniature). Arena Mode from ATOH is present, but it only covers the first three quests for the tournament, not the random "arena battles" that the players are allowed to undertake between quests if desired.

Updates to the app vary, but tend to appear every 3-6 months, first when new content is added with a released expansion (or digital quest, when those were still being released to promote the expansions) and then one or more bug fix updates (with scant details provided in the update log) in between. The time frame from the content updates tends to lag behind the physical releases one or more months (consider the digital vector based or scanned versions of the quest booklets appearing on Hasbro Consumer Care tends to take 2 or more months after the retail releases ship out).

EXPANSIONS:

Now on to the expansions... it's noteworthy that in the original editions, the "blank quest map" at the end was only included in the 14 quest booklet (well and the Adventure Design Kit), whereas here every expansion includes the blank map, to further emphasis that you're meant to use it (and you have permission to scan and print it, not just photocopy as we have that technology now!).

Kellar's Keep remake includes all of the stuff you'd expect. The monster sculpts are repeated from the game system in the same distributions as before. There's a bonus "mystery tile" in this one too, whose use is never explained, of a "mummy statue." Use it in your homebrew rules/custom quests I guess.

Like Return of the Witch Lord, all Potions for sale in the "Alchemist Shop" are also included as full size Equipment cards. All of the quests and concepts are the same as before, but some word substitutions once again. Blackfire Pass is now Darkfire Pass. Karak Varn is now Kabba Karn, etc.

Return of the Witch Lord's mystery tile has a map icon in the booklet, but again no explanation for its intended use... this time it's a "bone pile."

Return of the Witch Lord does NOT include any extra "skulls" like the original did, but it has the full complement of undead figures. It does NOT include the bonus "Witch Lord" figure that was available only through the Haslab campaign mythic set.

Some print editions of ROTWL have a missing door in one or two quests, and this was apparently fixed in later printings and also in the digital PDF (these PDFs of the booklets are typically released about 2 months after global retail release, but sometimes longer and not in all regions).

As before both of these expansions include the new artifacts and the Alchemist shop potions (as equipment) using the full (Poker) size cards, with the same linen finish on them, and on the tiles (and the lighter finish on the box) as the remake Game Systems.

As this is all based on the NA editions and not the European originals, the lack of any mention of the fate of a certain traitor is left out (as in the original). Reference to the "Sacred Water" is still there, etc.

All of HeroQuest now says "Age 14 and up" but it is widely recognized this is due to product safety regulations, as there is no more "mature" content here (and actually less assembly required) than the NA edition that was "age 10 and up" (the EU original was 9 and up). The (free, and ad-free, though it does collect anonymous data statistics) HQ Companion App is age 10 and up. It is usually about a month or two behind each official boxed release in terms of content (though to date Rogar's Hall is still not included in it, nor is the alternate artwork for the Guardian Knight found in Rise of the Dread Moon, or the alternate artwork for the Druids found in the remake of Against the Ogre Horde).

ADDITIONAL EXPANSIONS/RETAIL:

Smaller character expansions ("hero collection"s) were released from the time of the Retail version of the Game System, starting with the "Commander of the Guardian Knights." This included two exclusive sculpts of the Knight (7 BP hero) in red plastic. Each had their own shortsword and shield card. The knight had 2 MP (like the barbarian) and the BP max of the Dwarf, but instead of having a special trap disarming ability, the Knight could wear plate armor with no movement penalty. Each of the knights also came with three "skill" cards that can each be used once per quest... one that lets them survive death (coming back with 1 BP), another that lets them absorb (without damage) an attack on an adjacent ally, and another that let's them force a discovered wandering monster to attack them rather than the ally who triggered them. Two out of three of these skills require the Shield (which the hero starts with). This was a limited time exclusive, and quickly sold out, upsetting many fans, which required Avalon Hill to issue a public apology. Eventually this figure was re-released in modified form in the Rise of the Dread Moon expansion three years later.

The second Hero Collection was the Rogue Heir of Elethorn, following the same format there are two red figures (male and female variants), a lore card, and some cards depicting artwork for each of the two. Here again we have a 6 BP hero with three cards. This character's skills are always working... each starts with a dagger and bandolier. The bandolier, that can only be used by this character, grants the Rogue unlimited daggers and the abilities of a Toolkit. They can get an attack bonus against a monster adjacent to an ally, do a double attack where on is unblockable if using dagger or dagger plus shortsword, and can always pass through monsters. The lore card clarifies that AH always intended for only one of each character type to be present in a party at once, and multi-attacks against the same target to only allow the victim to roll defense against one of them... imply this applies retroactively to Heroic Brew in the Game System as well as the special Elf and Barbarian potions (Speed aka Celerity and Battle Rage) in the Mage of the Mirror and Frozen Horror remake expansions. This and the Monk box have a fancy cardboard sleeve that folds over the box and contains a little extra message.

The third Hero Collection was the Path of the Wandering Monk. The Monk starts out unarmed but always rolls 2 dice when fighting unarmed and has only four colorful cards (each with a different skill on each side, here divided up by elemental "styles"). The lore card is a rolled up "scroll" (that presents for the first time in the remake a kind of "world map" though with only vague labels as well as a teaser for the "World's End Tournament" that is featured in the ATOH remake) and the box converts into an attractive diorama to display the two figures.

A set of fancy dice called the "Dread Veil Dice" were given away free at GenCon 2023 for anyone buying or pre-ordering HeroQuest products that week and was eventually released into retail, but it became hard to find, especially outside the US. They were translucent with purple symbols and purple and blue ink submerged into the clear plastic design, but the same dimensions and outcomes as the other translucent dice. They come in a fancy tin with foam, and was also commonly sold with a black faux leather "storage scroll" that could hold about 15 dice in a zippered compartment, and unrolled into a "play mat" with a black microfiber type surface for rolling dice. No instructions were included but they were branded with art that coincides with Rise of the Dread Moon. Many commented that the symbols were hard to read from across the table and suggested re-painting the symbols.

Eventually most of the Mythic material was re-released into retail, with some restyled art, different colored plastic minis, and some quest book corrections (fixing most of the errata known to fans) and if you bought them all you'd end up with many more of these miniatures than were found in the Mythic set, though you'd pay a higher overall price for them (Mythic tier was $150 + around $30 shipping though now goes for absurd prices online, of course).

Spirit Queen's Torment retail included not just the questbook but also 6 translucent green dice, two each of all of the Mythic stretch goal monsters in translucent green plastic (except of course the Witch Lord or Venim the Dragon) except only one Dread Warrior and no Gargoyle. It also included the Bard hero in "silvery" red plastic.

Prophecy of Telor retail included not just the questbook but also 6 translucent orange dice, two each of all of the Mythic stretch goal monsters as above but only one Dread Warrior, two gargoyles (one in red plastic, with no instruction given but many speculated this was to allow a proxy for the "demonform" of the included Warlock hero in the silvery red plastic) and two of the Abominations and no Dread Sorcerer figure. The Alchemist Shop of this book was revised to include a 1d6 Potion of Healing and a revised (lower) price for the renamed "Potion of Lesser Healing" (which match how those cards look in Rise of the Dread Moon).

The Druid Hero was given a new sculpt (two actually, a male and female version, both halflings, with new card art but only one set of spell cards with a new back that features a wolf and other animals instead of the old Druid character from the Mythic set) and included in the remake of Against the Ogre Horde (this ATOH also adds three "tournament" quests before the classic era 7 quests that can be skipped, as well as a randomly generated "Arena mode" that can optionally be played an unlimited number of times between quests to earn gold and "bone" weapons that are the same as regular weapons but can't be sold back to the Armory... also one Ogre warrior can be hired as a mercenary for 150 gold in each quest... this arena mode uses some new large room tiles and also some larger sliding open plastic doors... also the Ogres are given a new story lore introduction... the normal Ogres are dark gray and the boss Ogres are in a beige color and take up two squares... these boss Ogres are given inflated stats but sometimes have lesser defense than before... some formerly empty rooms are given treasure chests packed with extra healing potions and Zargon is advised to come up with ways to let heroes escape from begin trapped in rooms or else use the red plastic "wolf" animal companion to continue the adventure... no other instructions are given on how to use the Druid hero in this pack, as expected. ATOH ditched the 1990 original's rules for "playing the quests as a series" and the optional "large healing potions." It also ditched the rule about Ogres blocking corridors for other monsters. Heroes and their allies were also given one last chance to escape the "Pit of Dread" by moving out of it on their next turn to soften this very dangerous aspect of the original. Finally, the "Dread Spells" in this one are in the standard card format, instead of being on those oval tokens like the original. There is also a new ending written, following the previously established new lore introduction to the Ogres. This time they are capable of being noble and protecting the weak, not just eating and fighting, though it is emphasized that they are secretive and at least one major clan has allied with Zargon's forces (formerly Morcar, being Zargon's name in the European original of course). The storyline mentions of KK, ROTWL, etc. are removed from the intro. Not all Ogres are evil and there are some "good" Ogres that help the heroes after proving themselves worthy, or are mercenary for hire this time if the players desire. The Wolf companion is like the one introduced in "Into the Northlands" being a single square character who cannot open doors but can have a potion used on them by an adjacent hero. The Ogre mercenary can open doors but no mention is made of him being able to be the recipient of an ally's healing potion.

Tiles very similar to the "Grasping Vine" traps from CoPD are included in the new "Jungles of Delthrak" expansion and have the same function. Tiles reminiscent of the flaming/smoking skull tiles are included but they have a completely different function (they mark heroes who have been "envenomed" instead of representing creatures you fight).

Sir Ragnar appears (as a bad guy, SPOILERS!) in Rise of the Dread Moon, but he has no miniature, and so is only depicted in artwork (especially in the Companion App). The formerly limited edition "Commander of the Guardian Knights" appears in modified form in this pack as well, but without the alternate artwork Shortsword/Shield cards (these were functionally identical to the game system versions anyway) and instead of a male and female version there is just one Knight with a closed visor helmet, though the pose is very similar to the female version. No explicit direction is given on how to use the Knight in this pack.

The Frozen Horror was the first "new" retail release that wasn't from the Mythic set to come out. It was virtually a 1:1 re-creation of the 1992 NA expansion (that was rare, being created at the end of HQ's production run, and had inadequate playtesting). It did come with 12 gray mercenary figures (the original had 6) with some of them now being female and as each was a new sculpt there were no "bolt on weapons" like the original. The Frozen Horror figure inside takes up 4 squares, being more than twice as large as the original which was a 2 square monster. This set included translucent blue combat dice and blue (with white pips) movement dice as a bonus. It also included another pad of blue-inked (and designed with "icesicles" and only 10 quests to check off) character sheets as a bonus. This was the first expansion in retail known to have the white iceberg logo on the outside of the box. The female Barbarian is now referred to in the booklet as the "alternate Barbarian" with no explicit references to her sex (although in the promo video on the HasbroPulse youtube channel Stephen Baker's narration clearly refers to this alternate Barbarian with female pronouns, just as he uses male ones for the male Rogue Heir of Elethorn in that promo video).

Hearing the complaints about the broken difficulty of the original. A digital quest was quickly released to tweak the extreme difficulty oversight of this set titled "Into the Northlands." The new quest introduced some elements of the new game, but the later pages introduced bonus Artifacts (Spiked Shield to avoid Yeti hugs, Cold Iron Plate - platemail that stopped Ice Gremlin theft, Warhorn of Command that allows surviving mercenaries to be rehired at half price, and the Ice Queen's Spear that allowed a 3 dice diagonal attack against Polar Warbears though only a 2 dice diagonal attack against other monsters). It also included rules for adding an "animal companion" as a free mercenary with limited abilities for each hero when there are less than 4 heroes in a quest or even in a solo adventure. The new artifacts were suggested to be hidden by Zargon guarded by powerful monsters if desired. They also clarified that heroes in "Shock" are restored to normal as soon as they have their mind points raised above zero, that characters that emerge from trap doors "push" other characters to the side who are standing on the same square in a direction chosen by the one being pushed, that Polar Warbear double attacks are separate and if both are targeted at a single victim that character chooses which of the attacks to roll their defense against since the other is unblockable. It is suggested that if players wish, they can use a playtesting rule that AH uses themselves... such that when there are no monsters on the board, heroes may move "unthreatened" by not having to roll to move. Heroes who normally roll 1 red die can move up to four squares, and heroes who normally roll 2 red dice can move up to 8 squares. Zargon was finally advised to not make use of the "Yeti hug" in solo adventures since this was an automatic death sentence to a hero who didn't have a companion to kill the monster and free him. The HQ companion app went further in the fixes by showing both the Polar Warbear dice rolls allowing you to see both before rolling your defense if they both targeted a single character (Into the Northlands implies you are "waiting" for the second attack, but maybe you can't change your mind, similar to accepting the second outcome of a dice re-roll... the very original Frozen Horror didn't explain but led many to believe you could only defend against the first attack from the Polar Warbear and the second was always unblockable). The App also allowed you to toggle on in the settles "Yeti hug break" meaning you could just break it with the tap of a button, or you were asked to roll 2 red dice, and any 5 or 6 automatically breaks the hold.

Mage of the Mirror remake came out the following year in retail with the first major adjustment to difficulty being the Ogre BP were lowered to 5 (from the original 10). Formerly unmarked Treasure chests were given something useful in each one (a generic "Elven Riches" rule was introduced that any unmarked treasure chest searched gives automatically 200 gold coins to the first searching hero, but it was unnecessary since all treasure chests were given something in the notes, so go figure). The heroes end up getting a little more equipment, gold, and potions as a result, but most importantly the solo Elf can gain the "Elven Bracers" in the very first quest, whereas before it was never found in the 1992 original (and the Elven Chainmail is still awarded, and still doesn't have a card, though it is heavily implied to only be usable by an Elf, which is actually more in keeping with the intention of the original author Kathryn L. Connors). Extra copies of the Elven Archers and Elven Warriors are included but no direction is given on how to use them (there are two sculpts of each, male and female, left and right handed, as "mirror" images of each other). The paragraph saying that only one Elf hero can be present in a party at a time is completely deleted. A new paragraph states that if mercenaries are available to you from other expansions you have, they can be used in the group quests. Avenger is changed to the Sovereign Sword. Moonsilver is renamed Lunarium. The Hidden Realms are renamed Silvermane's Lair.

Rise of the Dread Moon was released in 2023 and was the first "all original" expansion released into retail (the Mythic quest books not yet having been released to the general public). Other than the Guardian Knight, the rest of the material was all new, though it had some inspiration (to observant fans) from the Warhammer fantasy lore and also from fanmade and homebrew adventures and fan suggestions from over the years. New rules were introduced allowing the Wizard to "craft" potions using a very simple system where you find re-agents in the treasure deck and take them to an Alchemist Bench to transform them into other potions (or draw randomly from a new "Alchemist" deck that includes all of the potions from the previously released Expansions as well as the Game System except Holy Water...). Crafting potions can be done by other heroes but they have to buy a 400 gold coin "kit" that is only good for five uses. Heroes can also drop "caltrops" that stop a character's movement if they roll a white shield when touching it, and a smoke bomb that makes a single target able to be passed through by other characters (a kind of reverse Veil of Mist). Elven Mercenaries can be hired that are equivalent to the four types of human mercenaries in Frozen Horror (in violet/purple plastic, but only one of each type) but they are not given the same restrictions as the human mercs (implying they can be given artifacts, potions, equipment, and use them, etc). Reputation Tokens are introduced that heroes collect and can be cashed in to gain information, to hire mercs, to gain quick cash, or to choose different paths... encouraging replaying quests to see alternate outcomes at times. Lunar Charms are introduced as another token that can be collected and used to heal a hero for 1 BP and 1 MP at a sorcerer's table (Elf gets this bonus for free, expending a treasure search to do it). More NPCs are added that are tiles (similar to the Princess and Prospector tiles from MOTM, but there are many more of them and have different functions). Many quests don't allow shopping in between but "hideout" tiles are given which let the heroes do limited healing (roll 1 red die, distribute whatever number you get among your BP and/or MP) and a single safe treasure search as well as access to another alchemist's bench. Mid-quest shopkeepers sometimes appear to make up for the lack of ability to visit shops between many of the quests. New Specters (transparent ghosts) can pass through walls/heroes and have spells that bypass armor, and their attack spells can be used turn after turn and increase in power when they are adjacent to other monsters who have the same spells. Specters are considered undead so can be killed with Holy Water but they have a new resistance to attacks... meaning you have to roll black shields to hit them instead of skulls, unless you're using magic (weapons or spells). Cultists have the same boosting ability but limited use spells. Magus Guards are souped up Elven versions of Dread Warriors that can use Tempest and Ball of Flame once each by default (but there are only two of them in the box). Assassins are an elven enemy that can attack diagonally (with 5 dice!). Finally there's another transparent enemy, the Dread Wraith, that takes up two squares and shares some abilities with Specters but is much more powerful. The lore of ROTDM follows Mage of the Mirror (and has implied ties to Rogue Heir of Elethorn though he's never explicitly mentioned here). Many of the new quests in this pack feature RPG-Lite elements that many were asking for as well. There's also a dropped plotline (from the original version of ROTWL's ending) that was re-adapted into this storyline. A free digital quest called "Knightfall" was introduced to help flesh out the story a little bit.

A prelude quest intended to hype Kellar's Keep was released digitally called "The Forsaken Tunnels of Xor Xel" but it has more in common with ROTWL featuring lots of undead figures. It has some interesting new mechanics, twists and turns for that quest only.

New Beginnings was released digitally as an alternate first quest to take place BEFORE The Trial (it's far easier and lets you earn the Ring of Fortitude to boost your BP before undertaking that much more challenging beginning). It also re-introduces the "delight in cruelty and slaughter" lore for the Orcs (which I love) and makes use of the Dread Sorcerer figure.

No equivalent digital quests were released for ROTWL, MOTM, ATOH or JoD (and none are expected this long after retail release). No lore videos were released for the Wandering Monk, ATOH, or JoD (really not anything since the Rogue Heir of Elethorn, sadly).

An "Adventure Design Kit" PDF was released digitally for free (and pads of them were also given away free at GenCon, though unfortunately as with the other giveaways, unscrupulous scalpers sold them online despite explicit "not for resale" warnings in the fine print, sigh). This was not the same as the classic era ADK (that had a booklet of blank quests with sticker sheets and tutorials on writing your own quests as well as a pad of giant size re-designed character sheets and suggestions for their use) but instead is simply a blank quest map with space to write your adventure on a single page (or on the back!) and a sidebar with images of the various map icons but not all done to the proper scale... so cutting them out and pasting them on won't really work, they are more meant as a guide to sketch them yourself with your pencil. The actual symbols and blank maps featured in the PDF quest books are probably more useful for this, but if you don't mind some freehand doodling, this can work too and you can print as many as you want.

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Last edited by Kurgan on Tuesday July 23rd, 2024 6:04pm, edited 6 times in total.


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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Nlinindoll » Saturday July 20th, 2024 10:48pm

Gold Bearer wrote:It's actually true, damn.

I’m trying to figure out what you mean by this.

Gold Bearer wrote:Is there a topic that lists all the changes and all the new heroes/monsters/spells/items from the expansions? There's a LOT to go through in this one.

Are you JUST now learning of the rerelease or am I totally misinterpreting this?
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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby wallydubbs » Sunday July 21st, 2024 2:41am

Kurgan wrote:Did I miss anything major?


Just the Berserker and Explorer heroes.


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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday July 21st, 2024 8:12am

Wow, thank you Kurgan! That's a lot more than I was expecting for a reply.
I think a mod should use this post to start a new topic, Heroquest Remake Overview.

I saw that Errata topic and it just looked like a list of mistakes that made it into the released version. I was a bit overwhelmed though and to be honest I don't know what 'errata' even means.

Bracers not limited to the wizard, that raises the potential defence dice of every other character by one. That seems like an oversight forgetting to add that to the card, unless it says they can't combine with armour like in D&D.

It was always obvious the US version of Courage only worked for one attack, I got involved in lengthy discussion here with people who were convinced it lasted until no monster was in sight despite the card clearly(ish) explaining that it lasts until either no monster is in sight or after you make an attack. That was simply to stop it being pre cast before a fight.

The crossbow being able to hit diagonally adjacent targets is strange, it makes the crossbow overpowerd and makes the US version of Halberdier mercenaries pointless as they cost the same as Crossbowmen. I'm surprised this and Courage weren't clarified on the cards.

That's Mentor on the DM screen? No wonder there was all the identity confusion. I assumed the one on the character boards was a mistake, so we never got to know what Morcar looks like. Ooopsy, we ALL thought that was Morcar/Zagon. Zargon still sounds like an alien race from a scifi story. :)

I'm surprised they replaced the character boards with cards, they (not the US ones) were perfect.

New heroes but they didn't stick to the BP+MP=10 convention, not sure that's in the spirit of the original. I only ever made one hero (ranger) who didn't follow that rule but that was the character's whole concept, 10BP/5MP. That and being able to use elf and dwarf equipment as though he were an elf or dwarf. Dropping that convention does allow for much more freedom when creating characters but feels like a cop out.

So Orc's Bane wasn't supposed to allow the second attack to be defendable, that's a shame they forgot to actually print that rule in the original.

I'm fairly sure Ogres were described as not being evil in the original AtOH and Morcar was using using them because they're intellectually challenged.

The old US Elf and Barbarian expansions were released, and are still specifically Elf and Barbarian expansions with solo quests. I wonder if they're going to release the old finished but never released Wizard expansion and making a dwarf one. I suppose that's less important now there are new heroes as well.

Surviving mercenaries can be rehired at half price, so the US mercenaries didn't have the Wizards of Morcar rule that you just needed to pay 20gp between quests to keep them. I never knew that.

Rise of the Dread Moon sounds really good.

A simplified gameplay version of HQ, how? They must just mean less stuff in the box so as not to overwhelm new players who consider monopoly a complex game. That's not a criticism, we can't all be nerds.

Nlinindoll wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:It's actually true, damn.
I’m trying to figure out what you mean by this.
Gold Bearer wrote:Is there a topic that lists all the changes and all the new heroes/monsters/spells/items from the expansions? There's a LOT to go through in this one.
Are you JUST now learning of the rerelease or am I totally misinterpreting this?
Yea I heard mentions of a Heroquest remake but I thought they were referring to that earlier attempt that never happened and got some hate here. I can't quite remember why but I think they deserved it.

wallydubbs wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Did I miss anything major?
Just the Berserker and Explorer heroes.
I feel like a spoilt kid who's just been given the world and still wants more but how do the Berserker and Explorer work?
Let me see if I can guess what they did.
The Berserker can choose to go into a rage/berserk/frenzy/fury/rampage giving them two attacks until no monsters are on the board after which they lose 1BP.
The Explorer combines trap, secret door and treasure searches and draws two treasure cards instead of one and choosing which to take.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

Expanded Combined Spells: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4296

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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday July 21st, 2024 9:23am

I just found this 'Game System versions comparison' topic viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5832 that has great side by side photos.
If Kurgan's post is made into a new topic that link should be included.

I love the new card art but hate the new furniture. Just look at that old fireplace. :D
Last edited by Gold Bearer on Sunday July 21st, 2024 11:11am, edited 1 time in total.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

Expanded Combined Spells: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4296

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DMT - The Spirit Molecule: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwZqVqbkyLM


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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » Sunday July 21st, 2024 10:17am

I updated the long post above and tried to make it a bit more readable with headings and re-arranged or clarified in a few places.

wallydubbs wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Did I miss anything major?


Just the Berserker and Explorer heroes.


Excellent. I actually reached the character limit with that post, so here's the end that was cut off. :D


Jungles of Delthrak included two new animal companions (a dinosaur who can move attack move and a snow tiger) as well as several new monsters (like spawnlings that die in one hit but can stick to your hero and do automatic damage each turn) and optional rules (like you can change your hero turn order each round, or an alternate way to use death saves where you pour a potion on the head of an "incapacitated" hero like its some video game to revive them instead of them drinking a potion at the last second or just dying permanently... and another version where downed heroes slowly auto heal each turn so long as there is at least one hero still "alive" making it very hard to lose so the group can just experience the story). This expansion gives alternate pathing, where there are 16 total quests but you only experience a sequence of 10 of them every time you play (unless Zargon changes things of course). JoD added plenty of new monster gimmicks, more extensively than either Frozen Horror or Rise of the Dread Moon. Key words giving monsters the ability to move/attack/move on the same turn, "spawn" (tile based spawnling monsters to attack heroes), the ability to open doors (but not necessarily activate rooms), "envenom" (paralyze) enemies, and/or to pass through furniture. New powers to pass through furniture (not just walls or enemies) are also made available to the heroes. Two new heroes were included in the back (each with male and female versions), the Berserker (7 BP, clearly inspired by the Barbarian) and the Explorer (5 BP, clearly inspired by the Dwarf). Each of these characters had slight weaknesses (Berserker unable to use ranged weapons, Explorer unable to wear metal armor) but also perks in the form of each having 3 skill cards (Berserker could do a powerful attack at the cost of 1-2 BP, and two other abilities that could be used only when the hero was down to 5 BP one allowing a sweeping attack of nearby squares and another that allows an attack back against an enemy who just attacked; the Explorer could detect traps in adjacent squares while moving, gain 25 extra gold from gold treasure cards, and a redraw the first time you get a hazard card from the treasure deck each search). The dinosaur (Raptor) animal companion is like the monster version, and the snow tiger (Saberfang) can attack diagonally.

Alchemist cards appear in ROTDM but are only really explained there (and partner with Re-agent cards found in the Treasure deck and can work with equipment purchased from the "Underground Market" version of the Armory) while the Alchemist cards in JoD are not explained and just seem like alternate Equipment cards (maybe they can't be sold back for extra gold?).



All of the expansions introduce new Equipment in the form of Potions (purchasable at "Alchemist Shops" although the same one is shared by four of the quest books), new Artifacts and new Treasure (Except ATOH which has none of these), as well as new Dread Spells for the bad guys. MOTM has new alternate spells for the Elf to choose from (3 out of a pool of 8). All of the expansions introduce new monsters except KK, ROTWL, SQT, and PoT which merely offer more copies (or alternate sculpts) of existing monsters, though as always the quest notes can introduce special features to specific named monsters or all monsters of a type in a certain quest.


NEW GAME SYSTEM (upcoming):

First Light is set to release a little later this year as an alternate game system meant to be more affordable and accessible to first time players (rather than superfans like us). It is expected to retail for about $60 and be available at select brick and mortar store(s) and be fully compatible with the existing expansions. Some noise has been made about "simplified gameplay" but we don't yet know what that means. It's been confirmed officially that it will include new quests and not just be a copy of the GS material, but to what extent is unknown at this time, and the big reveal is expected at this year's GenCon (Aug 1-4th, 2024) where they will be demoing and and (who knows) maybe you can buy it there or at least "pre-order" (if such a thing exists, I'm told Target does those).

WHAT ELSE?

Did I miss anything major? They really tried to re-create the 1990 NA edition in these remake editions, only replacing a few words here and there either to comply with their agreement with GWS (without which the project never would have gotten off the ground) to obscure the Warhammer Fantasy references (the original game being loosely based in the WHFB 3rd edition art and lore) and on occasion out of political correctness. Even when they were seemingly forced to change things here or there they have largely remained faithful to that original vision of the past. Unlike the old days, the new HeroQuest is basically one version for the world (not every country and language group that had their own version of the game back in the day has yet gotten the remake, to say nothing of the many expansions, but the number grows every year it seems) rather than regional variants with different rules. It does seem they made an effort to import rules and tidbits inspired from the other editions (European and Japanese) though much still remains on the cutting room floor so to speak. They've also repeatedly emphasized that they want fans to tweak the game and make it their own, even though they've done things like clarify their intentions for rules, made little updates in subsequent expansions or in the companion app, and published and revised an official "quest play order."


Finally, a wall of text that you might actually care to read, to sum up the findings of many pages of this thread, one poster's POV of course in places... |_P

Gold Bearer wrote:I just found this 'Game System versions comparison' topic viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5832 that has great side by side photos.
If Kurgan's post is made into a new topic that link should be included.


Well put.
Last edited by Kurgan on Tuesday July 23rd, 2024 2:31pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » Sunday July 21st, 2024 11:08am

Gold Bearer wrote:Wow, thank you Kurgan! That's a lot more than I was expecting for a reply.
I think a mod should use this post to start a new topic, Heroquest Remake Overview.

I saw that Errata topic and it just looked like a list of mistakes that made it into the released version. I was a bit overwhelmed though and to be honest I don't know what 'errata' even means.

Bracers not limited to the wizard, that raises the potential defence dice of every other character by one. That seems like an oversight forgetting to add that to the card, unless it says they can't combine with armour like in D&D.


Its a term for "errors" noticed too late to correct in a printed work, often corrected in a later supplement. These are issues noticed by fans (and excellently compiled by HispaZargon in that big thread).

AH has clarified that Bracers do NOT stack with body armor, only with helmet and/or shield... and of course since the Wizard/Warlock and a few other characters (now that the helmet is explicitly defined as a type of "metal armor") they can't use it either. Bracers are a way for some of these characters to use some armor. At first the Monk's pages all said that he couldn't wear metal armor, while the official cards have always said he "refuses to wear armor" implying any card with "armor" on it can't be used by him, period, and Doug Hopkins has confirmed this was the intention. The usual caveat to all these rule clarifications is that this is their intention but Zargon can do whatever he or she wants at his or her table and this is not an attempt to stop homebrewers from tweaking to their liking.

It was always obvious the US version of Courage only worked for one attack, I got involved in lengthy discussion here with people who were convinced it lasted until no monster was in sight despite the card clearly(ish) explaining that it lasts until either no monster is in sight or after you make an attack. That was simply to stop it being pre cast before a fight.


Strongly disagree on that one, and it'll probably never be resolved. What is "always obvious" to one person is clearly not to many others. The European version was explicitly clear that the first edition was one attack, the second edition could theoretically last and last, while the US edition was a little clunky combination of wording. The remake edition didn't seem to clarify much of anything, hence why many of us (including myself) were a bit shocked to hear that they'd intended it differently. This was not the same as the Zargon/Mentor image confusion from days past where it was "obvious" in one edition what it was meant to be but not in another because of helpful supporting context being removed.

The crossbow being able to hit diagonally adjacent targets is strange, it makes the crossbow overpowerd and makes the US version of Halberdier mercenaries pointless as they cost the same as Crossbowmen. I'm surprised this and Courage weren't clarified on the cards.


Another controversial one. It was "always obvious" that the NA edition it was meant to hit the diagonal squares because it only ever said it couldn't hit adjacent. The debate came from the poorly understood (or inconsistent, obscure) use of the term "orthogonally adjacent" in the board gaming community. To some it means "adjacent" means actually the eight squares surrounding, while to others it literally only means the four cardinal directions north, south, east and west with nothing else implied. If you just read it literally with no extra words added, then that it could NOT hit the four squares (but could hit any other squares that the hero could "see") makes perfect sense. It seems like an oversight (who knows if it was or not), but this was a difficulty of the NA edition, since the "line of sight" for aiming missile fire in the European versions was quite different. The companion app is no help on this matter (not that it ever solves these disputes anyway). I have a harder time with these rule clarifications for stuff that was created long before Avalon Hill got involved, but I'm much more apt to take their word for it on things they have created. Presumably the slight re-wording of the Courage text in the remake edition was a clue they wanted to hammer home their interpretation and either "knew all along" that many fans had gotten it wrong (not so "obvious") or that it needed to be changed to conform to how they intended it to work.

I considered the symmetry that existed between Courage and Rock Skin, as compared with Potion of Strength and Potion of Defense (Potion of Resiliency in the original). One boosts attack, the other boosts defense. In the original, the spells and potions are indistinguishable (unless you're considering passing potions between heroes). In the 2nd edition the spells become more interesting... in theory you could cast Rock Skin and it would continue to protect you until such time as you took damage. Courage, by the same token, could be "kept alive" so long as you could see monsters (a very easy thing to do in the EU editions... as long as there is at least one in the same room or corridor, or through the next doorway you're golden). I read my interpretation of Courage "into" the card even though I grew up with the NA edition and long before discovering the differences with the EU editions, and I think many others did too. That doesn't mean we were right and the designers were wrong, but it stands to reason it was a big confusing if that's what they intended all along. I think Courage is a powerful spell and this new reading certainly weakens it, I kind of don't like that it's weakened, ultimately. You could also see how Potion of Speed (removed in the NA edition) was like Swift Wind. The Wizard and Elf were like they were starting with potions (that they couldn't pass off to another character). Over time the Spells changed to be more unique. We fans have a tendency to pick and choose the rules from the versions we like best together, but in the Courage case I either was just legit misreading it all this time or the wording could have been better, and I think it's not just my ego choosing the latter option for the confusion. Even so, I think it works better the latter way. I've tried playing the crossbow the intended way and liked it a lot less than the way I do it now. I haven't yet tried playing Courage the way it was "always intended," but it just encourages Zargon to move his monsters out of sight (and then right back into sight?) to dowse the spell, I guess forcing the heroes to corner or immobilize the enemy first.


Sometimes it's possible to read the text literally and come to one conclusion and you could argue that the designers didn't articulate their position as well as they could have. See for example the Bard's "non-metal armor bonus" thing. For a long time many of us assumed the text was saying that by default the Bard used 2 dice and if he added Bracers only (but not helmet or shield) he would get an extra one (meaning 4 instead of 3, as the bracers normally only add 1). Instead he was intended to have 3 all along, and the bracers would add 1 (retaining the bonus) for 4. This became more clear after old images resurfaced of the earlier versions of the Bard's text (that were only posted on one preview page, I think it was Comicbook.com?) AND the existence of the Wandering Monk hero. In the latter case the card CLEARLY shows "1" for his attack and yet his attack is really "2."

Like you, I disagree with how the crossbow is officially intended to work (even if it is the literal reading of the Armory Board description from 1990 "all along"). I much prefer how the Japanese edition handles it, where it simply says that 8 surrounding squares of the crossbow user can't be shot at, but the squares beyond that they can see, can. This retains the value of the Longsword (which only existed in the NA edition to begin with) and the Halberdier, like you say. I don't get into discussions so much of how things are "overpowered" but yes, it seems like something needs to be done, whether adjusting its price or something. Many choose to simply play it as written, and others care to implement whatever clarifications the designers say online (I can respect that). I'd personally love to know what Mike Gray and his team intended when they wrote the Armory Board descriptions (even Stephen Baker might not be able to clarify this since his EU rules were different before that).

We go down a deep rabbit hole after awhile... consider the multitudes of fans who "always remember" having to walk up to treasure chests to open them, despite this never really officially being stated anywhere (though I admit one could argue it was implied in the 2nd edition's version of The Trial, but even later clarifications from Stephen Baker verify he didn't intend this to be a required action, even though many fans just natural role played it this way). For all the time I played HQ until a little after discovering this forum I was shocked to discover that others were not removing the Secret Door tiles from the board when they were "opened" to replace them with an open door (which, when playing "The Maze" causes you to run out of doors!). Little things like this are endlessly debated and it can be difficult to get around the mental block of the misunderstood rules of childhood vs. the inadequate clarity of the original writings clarified all these decades later.


Regarding Mentor vs. Zargon it was interesting for me to learn (via this site mostly in the last decade) that while Mentor's presentation remained consistent, Morcar (the evil wizard by any other name, called Grimdead in the Japanese edition)'s appearance varied. I think the only source that identifies the "red clad" wizard as Morcar is the HeroQuest Sticker Album. In it, Morcar and Mentor are practically twins, except Mentor is clad in BLUE, has elven pointed ears, and a white skullcap. This seems to be the exception... elsewhere one or both of the characters is identified and Mentor is always the guy in red and Morcar (Zargon) looks like something else, maybe a shriveled old magician with pointy nose and ears (DOS pc game adaptation by Gremlin) or else a hooded skeletor-like figure with blue skin (Marvel Winter Special). Of course you could say these were all ancillary materials and not the actual game, but they were at least back then official as could be.

The old character boards depict the red clad wizard reading from his book (loretome, presumably) making you think he's a good guy, introducing you. But on the GM screen it looks like an angry guy commanding the monsters to attack (and the person sitting behind the screen IS the evil wizard player). I guess they really meant that he was warning the heroes about the impending danger, maybe standing between Zargon/Morcar and the heroes as a last line of defense? The art is awesome, but it tends to feed that misleading concept. Even the App, it says "Digital Zargon!" and the icon is the face of the old man once again... who is he? The remake at least tries to differentiate the two more by putting the "Zargon skull" next to his references and the "mentor eye" around the neck of the "good guy wizard."

So Orc's Bane wasn't supposed to allow the second attack to be defendable, that's a shame they forgot to actually print that rule in the original.


Chalk that up to a difference in writers. The EU editions of '89/90 didn't clarify this so I and many other fans just assumed it meant you defend each attack. There has always been some small debate about what happens when you attack the same orc twice, but it stands to reason you wouldn't think it was unblockable. Mike Gray's team that did the NA edition (they consulted with Baker, but ultimately did the rule and quest revisions themselves it turns out, and they were the ones who created the Elf and Barbarian packs, while using the EU packs WOM and ATOH as reference materials, they explicitly changed many things) discussed allowing the double attacks against the same target from the Warbears to be a single combined attack (8 dice) with one defense at the end, and this was shown to be their clear intention for the Wizard quest pack (which of course was never finished and without the draft note leaks we'd have no idea they wanted to do this). In the final release version of course this was all left out. The implicate was the first attack you defend and then surprise you get a second attack you can do nothing about. But AH softened it to let you pick which one. And then retroactively apply the rule to all double attacks going back (Mike G's team would have done the same thing with their double attack combined idea too).

Avalon Hill's team is sticking to the "unblockable" notion but refined it to be pretty clear... the defender gets to choose which of the attacks to roll their defense against (and even etiquette would declare the attacker should announce beforehand which targets they are hitting with the multi-attack). The way the App handles it is pretty self explanatory. The whole unblockable attack thing is kind of assumed with the creation of the Rogue Hero (even in my homebrew rules, where I adopt the "combined large attack" intention of Mike G's team with the draft notes... I make an exception for the Rogue, because he really doesn't work very well without it and clearly he's a modern creation, etc).

I'm fairly sure Ogres were described as not being evil in the original AtOH and Morcar was using using them because they're intellectually challenged.


I worded that poorly, the classic description is that they're not good or evil as well, I should have meant chaotic, unpredictable, driven by their passions for food and fighting. The remake makes it clear that many of them have ideals and culture, not just being dumb brutes who love fighting (although they still love fighting). It follows a similar trend in the remake lore with clarifying that while many of the Orcs you meet are going to be monsters who threaten you, some of them are okay, even heroic.

The new lore basically revises it to saying that Ogres are indeed some good and some evil, their cultural traditions aside (and the clear influence of Zargon's dread magic via Festral on this particular clan's leadership).

Surviving mercenaries can be rehired at half price, so the US mercenaries didn't have the Wizards of Morcar rule that you just needed to pay 20gp between quests to keep them. I never knew that.


I thought it was 10 each, but yeah, significant discount (the EU mercs were a lot weaker too, and some were cheaper to hire if I recall correctly). I like the discount idea in general because it encourages the heroes not to just waste them as cannon fodder. ROTDM made them even more valuable, and thus encourages them to be conserved and protected even more, almost to the point of being heroes themselves. The Frozen Horror originally had nothing like this, so all signs point to this improvement that coincides with the original idea of a survival based re-hire discount (I miss the potion of charm though, here's hoping that's retained in any future remake of Wizards of Morcar!).
Last edited by Kurgan on Sunday July 21st, 2024 12:03pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday July 21st, 2024 11:55am

Kurgan wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:I saw that Errata topic and it just looked like a list of mistakes that made it into the released version. I was a bit overwhelmed though and to be honest I don't know what 'errata' even means.
Its a term for "errors" noticed too late to correct in a printed work, often corrected in a later supplement. These are issues noticed by fans (and excellently compiled by HispaZargon in that big thread).
Ah, I see. |_P

Kurgan wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:It was always obvious the US version of Courage only worked for one attack, I got involved in lengthy discussion here with people who were convinced it lasted until no monster was in sight despite the card clearly(ish) explaining that it lasts until either no monster is in sight or after you make an attack. That was simply to stop it being pre cast before a fight.
Strongly disagree on that one, and it'll probably never be resolved. What is "always obvious" to one person is clearly not to many others. The European version was explicitly clear that the first edition was one attack, the second edition could theoretically last and last, while the US edition was a little clunky combination of wording. The remake edition didn't seem to clarify much of anything, hence why many of us (including myself) were a bit shocked to hear that they'd intended it differently. This was not the same as the Zargon/Mentor image confusion from days past where it was "obvious" in one edition what it was meant to be but not in another because of helpful supporting context being removed.
This again. :)
The US text can be sumerised in two sentences: You get two extra combat dice the next time you attack. The spell is broken if there are no monsters in sight.
The first sentence tells us that their next attack and only their next attack gets two extra combat dice. The second sentence tells us that if at any point in between the spell being cast and making their next attack there's ever no monsters in their line of sight they don't get the extra dice.
Knightkrawler agrees with me even if nobody else does.
Don't get me wrong, I much prefer remaining in play to mirror that version's Rock Skin but I would have one extra attack dice to also mirror Rock Skin.

Kurgan wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:Surviving mercenaries can be rehired at half price, so the US mercenaries didn't have the Wizards of Morcar rule that you just needed to pay 20gp between quests to keep them. I never knew that.
I thought it was 10 each, but yeah, significant discount (the EU mercs were a lot weaker too, and some were cheaper to hire if I recall correctly).
Maybe 10, I thought 20. Yea in WoM they all get 1BP instead of 2, the crossbowmen have two attack dice (light crossbows presumably or they're just rubbish at their jobs), halberdiers can't attack diagonally and scouts can't search for treasure, and I think US swordsmen have more than 4 movement.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » Sunday July 21st, 2024 12:13pm

Gold Bearer wrote:This again. :)
The US text can be sumerised in two sentences: You get two extra combat dice the next time you attack. The spell is broken if there are no monsters in sight.
The first sentence tells us that their next attack and only their next attack gets two extra combat dice. The second sentence tells us that if at any point in between the spell being cast and making their next attack there's ever no monsters in their line of sight they don't get the extra dice.
Knightkrawler agrees with me even if nobody else does.
Don't get me wrong, I much prefer remaining in play to mirror that version's Rock Skin but I would have one extra attack dice to also mirror Rock Skin.


Agree to disagree of course on the usual controversies. ;) As for Rock Skin, I implement the second defense die with my upgrade system for magic users who have survived enough quests (and small tweaks to most other spells as well).

I don't mind people disagreeing with me over the rules, to me its more like the implication that players were just dumb, or stubbornly refusing to believe what their lying eyes were showing them. I'm sure that wasn't your intention here of course!

Even laying aside the ingrained habit that years of playing the game a certain way (lost in the mists of childhood nostalgia) I think there's a case of a genuine ambiguity in the rule as written in these cases. I agree AH has their work cut out for them maintaining a balance between their own vision and respecting the assumptions and expectations of the large number of classic fans in their customer base as well as the constant questions of new fans seeking clarifications on things (and they've so far been doing a pretty good job of it). The idea that AH is going to officially settle old rule debates seems largely to be wishful thinking, but I can live with it!

There certainly does seem to be a tension of sorts with some players who give off the vibe online that they want to "obey the rules as written" but just can't bring themselves to believe the rules are a certain way because of how it plays, so they try to convince themselves it really means something else. Each person has to decide for themselves if that's what's really happening. To me though, the fact that they did try to change the wording (again) and did try to clarify it publicly tells me that AH recognizes there was widespread confusion, perhaps due to that ambiguity that they sought to clarify. I infamously "yelled" at Avalon Bill about it on discord (and publicly apologized to him, even in person at GenCon last year) for going over the top a bit. (miss you, Bill!) I can clearly see and accept they want the game to be this way, and maybe it was meant that way all along, but it was less than clear "all along" to me as well. Right or wrong, we HeroQuest fans can be a passionate lot. Bill was diplomatic with his reply of course, that in the end, its up to each Zargon to decide how to do things at their own table, which is a sentiment I heartily agree with.


Gold Bearer wrote:Maybe 10, I thought 20. Yea in WoM they all get 1BP instead of 2, the crossbowmen have two attack dice (light crossbows presumably or they're just rubbish at their jobs), halberdiers can't attack diagonally and scouts can't search for treasure, and I think US swordsmen have more than 4 movement.


It's definitely 10 for "upkeep" in WOM vs. full hire price in Frozen Horror (prior to "Into the Northlands" suggestion with the Warhorn of Command artifact). Yes, things are different...

FH mercs all have 2 body points (vs. 1 BP in WOM)

FH Halberdier is 75 gold to hire (vs. WOM 50).

FH Swordsman moves 5 squares (vs. WOM 4 squares) and costs 100 gold coins (vs. 75 in WOM)

FH Crossbowman is 3 attack dice close or ranged (vs. WOM is only 2).

I actually hadn't noticed that WOM never says the Halberdiers can attack diagonally (like they can in FH, etc), good catch there!

Otherwise they're the same. The FH mercs are limited to their starting gear and can't use potions, equipment or artifacts (but as Encarmine pointed out, the ROTDM mercenaries can do all those things, since it doesn't say they can't, although the Companion App erroneously imposes the same restrictions upon them as these human mercenaries, while it doesn't against Orc allies and Sir Ragnar, interestingly).
Last edited by Kurgan on Sunday July 21st, 2024 12:28pm, edited 1 time in total.


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