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How to counter door blocking + Crossbow LoS issues

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby knightkrawler » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 4:36am

Jafazo wrote:the Elf CANNOT stand behind the Barbarian and fire a volley of arrows into the room. The Elf can do nothing. You've been allowing and having a problem with this issue because you missed an important rule. The game needs no adjustment.


We may not agree on some rule or another and we might houserule away, especially if we're actually not really playing the game, but on one thing I think everybody (well, among those having posted in this thread) agrees:
It is not possible to shoot over/through any number of figures.
Trying to houserule this with reasoning (the dwarf and goblins can be shot over if the target is taller) unbalances the game by introducing logic where HQ is made with 5 stats ranging from 0 to 8, basically concentrating it on "mays" and "cannots". Logic and storytelling feats are for RPGs.

But I digress. No one in this thread suggested allowing shooting through other figures. Goblin-King asked about diagonal shots through the door and he got answers.
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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby Big Bene » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 5:40am

knightkrawler wrote:But I digress. No one in this thread suggested allowing shooting through other figures. Goblin-King asked about diagonal shots through the door and he got answers.
Just what I wanted to say.
Have a look ;)


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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby Jafazo » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 9:29am

knightkrawler wrote:
Jafazo wrote:the Elf CANNOT stand behind the Barbarian and fire a volley of arrows into the room. The Elf can do nothing. You've been allowing and having a problem with this issue because you missed an important rule. The game needs no adjustment.


We may not agree on some rule or another and we might houserule away, especially if we're actually not really playing the game, but on one thing I think everybody (well, among those having posted in this thread) agrees:
It is not possible to shoot over/through any number of figures.
Trying to houserule this with reasoning (the dwarf and goblins can be shot over if the target is taller) unbalances the game by introducing logic where HQ is made with 5 stats ranging from 0 to 8, basically concentrating it on "mays" and "cannots". Logic and storytelling feats are for RPGs.

But I digress. No one in this thread suggested allowing shooting through other figures. Goblin-King asked about diagonal shots through the door and he got answers.


I definitely agree that logic runs the risk of introducing unbalanced elements to the game, which is why I'm not relying on logic for this subject. I read back through the whole thing and noticed how the question was changed (elaborated upon) as the conversation carried on. If I had started this topic I would've edited my original post to reflect my elaboration but that's just me. As for what I might do about a Hero shooting into a room diagonally, here's what I came up with...

You CAN shoot diagonally into the room past the adjacent barbarian.

The diagram on pg 15 traces a line from the Elf to the Orc inside the room at a direct diagonal line. That means that diagonal vision through the point of the door is recognized and OK'd. So the Elf could fire away at any targets diagonal from his position next to the barbarian and he could even hit targets on the square left or right of the first square inside the room. I'd include a visual but I can't post images and can't find what I need online. The move is fine though, the Elf is within his rights. However, if players are inconsiderate enough to abuse this, Morcar has an ace up his sleeve.

Move your monsters outside the Elfs line of sight and beyond the barbarians attack range. If the players try to get slick and give the barbarian a crossbow, move your monsters closer to the wall where the opened doorway is to their respective safe spots and instigate a Mexican stand off, only... the evil wizard can afford to be more stubborn than heroes. Heroes entered the quest to complete it and until they do so, the quest remains incomplete and thus, a failure. If they refuse to move, I'd finish the quest with a kind of stalemate ending that explains how the Heroes held their ground with dogged persistence and how to this day, no one knows what became of the stand off. The quest, upon not being completed, was failed because a quest needs to be completed, not postponed indefinitely (Pg.23 of the rulebook explains that a Quest can only be be completed successfully if the Heroes achieved the quest goal AND returned to the safety of the stairway, they did neither of these). I'd calmly crumple each Heroes character sheet and ask the players if they'd like to restart with new Heroes or not. Like it was said, players who would do such a thing are probably poor players to play with anyway.

Imagine if the Heroes stop in the middle of an empty hallway and decide to stay there indefinitely or if the last remaining Hero with 1 Body Point refuses to exit a quest cause he doesn't want to die yet won't advance cause he's near death with no means of healing. The GM doesn't cater to and babysit in those instances so why do it if the Heroes refuse to move otherwise? If they were to ever try the quest again, I'd be sure to include four piles of human bones on the exact squares where the Heroes originally decided to delay indefinitely and add some text explaining that they seem to be the remains of adventurers who failed to move and starved to death.

If they won't move, they lose. Let'em lose.
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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby knightkrawler » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 3:56pm

Jafazo wrote:If they refuse to move, I'd finish the quest with a kind of stalemate ending that explains how the Heroes held their ground with dogged persistence and how to this day, no one knows what became of the stand off. The quest, upon not being completed, was failed because a quest needs to be completed, not postponed indefinitely (Pg.23 of the rulebook explains that a Quest can only be be completed successfully if the Heroes achieved the quest goal AND returned to the safety of the stairway, they did neither of these). I'd calmly crumple each Heroes character sheet and ask the players if they'd like to restart with new Heroes or not. Like it was said, players who would do such a thing are probably poor players to play with anyway.


Completely on the same page. Just calmly ask "Do you want to play or do we watch a movie?"
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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby The Road Warrior » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 4:46pm

Interestingly, going back to Goblin-king's earlier diagram, I believe it is possible to hit all but one of those Orc's with a crossbow.

Each Orc may be shot from the square marked with the corresponding number assuming that:
  1. The Barbarian first kills the Orc directly in front of him
  2. The Heroes are stood in a 4x4 room (They probably are if you check the gameboard)
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Finding safe positions for your monsters can be difficult sometimes. I think there are 5 safe squares in the diagram above and if the Barbarian is also armed with a crossbow there is only 1. Blocking some of these shooting positions by placing furniture on them would create more safe positions for the monsters to sit in and wait for the heroes to enter.

So in response to the original post it seems that clever positioning of furniture inside the room the heroes are standing in, to eliminate these shooting positions, could actually encourage the heroes to enter the room full of monsters. At the very least, each of the monsters should get a chance to attack the Barbarian once before dying.
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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 6:13pm

According to the rules i'd say Road Warrior has it right.


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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby Jafazo » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 6:26pm

The Road Warrior wrote:Interestingly, going back to Goblin-king's earlier diagram, I believe it is possible to hit all but one of those Orc's with a crossbow.

Each Orc may be shot from the square marked with the corresponding number assuming that:
  1. The Barbarian first kills the Orc directly in front of him
  2. The Heroes are stood in a 4x4 room (They probably are if you check the gameboard)
Image

Finding safe positions for your monsters can be difficult sometimes. I think there are 5 safe squares in the diagram above and if the Barbarian is also armed with a crossbow there is only 1. Blocking some of these shooting positions by placing furniture on them would create more safe positions for the monsters to sit in and wait for the heroes to enter.

So in response to the original post it seems that clever positioning of furniture inside the room the heroes are standing in, to eliminate these shooting positions, could actually encourage the heroes to enter the room full of monsters. At the very least, each of the monsters should get a chance to attack the Barbarian once before dying.


Yep... you're right. Safe spots can get hard to find... stupid small rooms!

Oh, hey! How about placing solid rock tiles on the squares next to both sides of the barbarian (looking at the diagram you pasted)? We can also put solid rock tiles on the OTHER side, inside the room, at both sides of the door! Ha! Eat THAT Heroes! I think eventually that setup would lead to everyone just deciding you can't shoot diagonally through the door, but for players who insist on their right to do so, I might try putting those solid block tiles right there at every single door. Lol

Then you can mess with'em and be like, "And in THIS room is a closed door, but it DOESN'T have solid rock tiles flanking its sides! <long pause as Heroes celebrate> It has two solid rock Firmir statues flanking its sides instead!" <Players Anime face plant>
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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby The Road Warrior » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 7:04pm

It's just crossed my mind that moving the door one square to the right would also open up more safe positions for the Orcs. So I would say door placement is important as well.

Jafazo wrote:Then you can mess with'em and be like, "And in THIS room is a closed door, but it DOESN'T have solid rock tiles flanking its sides! <long pause as Heroes celebrate> It has two solid rock Firmir statues flanking its sides instead!" <Players Anime face plant>


You just reminded me of playing through the first quest I ever wrote. My wife had just opened the door on the final room of the quest and found the magic portal she was looking for. The portal was on the far side of the room flanked by two chaos warriors. There was also a group of about 4 orcs or goblins in the room. Not being one to shy away from a fight my wife moved her elf into the room and fired her crossbow at one of the chaos warriors. She was not amused when I told her that her bolt bounced harmlessly off a stone statue :lol:

She doesn't play HQ so much anymore :roll:
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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby chaoticprime » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 9:00pm

mitchiemasha wrote:According to the rules i'd say Road Warrior has it right.


I disagree. The line must extend from the center of one square to the center of another without intersecting anything else. He'd have to be standing in front of the door to attack anyone in the room at all with any indirect method, in which case he could still attack diagonally, but not orthogonally. The crossbow allows you to attack enemies that you can see. If you use that same image it clearly shows the corner of a hallway, which extends as far as the corner of a doorway leading into a room, as a blocked line-of-sight because--its around a freaking corner. On the diagonal attack graphic it shows that you can use a diagonally-attacking weapon to attack around a corner, but you may not shoot or cast a spell at an enemy unless you are standing directly in front of the door.
Image

Wrong. Line of sight doesn't go around corners.

Crossbows cannot attack diagonally, they attack enemies that you can "see." They put two different graphics of it up there, which they didn't do in the UK version--and even defined them differently right next to each other in the rules--for that reason.


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Re: How to counter door blocking

Postby chaoticprime » Wednesday October 15th, 2014 9:36pm

I take that back somewhat--there is one target possible.

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"Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on and the center of the square the target is on."

The rule-book literally calls this "A Good Rule of Thumb," which describes an easy-to-apply method for making a determination.


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