Appearance of Orcs (and other Goblinoids)

[iKarith]

I really hate the current version of Dungeons & Dragons orc in 5th edition, often shown with gray or very light green skin and a ponytail of dark hair. They look much more like skinny ogres to me. This is what I might envision as an orog: a half-orc/half ogre might look like.

Makes all of the current orc miniatures unbuyable for me.

The spikes are a bit much. Spikes and snaggy bits built into armor are loved by many as a way of showing "I am EEEEVILLLE! See, I am covered with SPIKES!" Realistically though, such things are at least as dangerous to the wearer as to anyone else. I presume orcs and perhaps ogres would be wearing either crude plates of metal that were not always even and symmetrical, but were basically functional to turn a sword strike and probably heavier than they needed to be because an orc's got the strength to carry it and would argue "Small metal for man and elf things! Strong metal for strong orc!" It might have several gashes in it too, because while it might be thick enough to stop a sword, I can't imagine orcs would spend much time learning to harden their steel.

Otherwise, this fellow looks like a goblinoid. Built for size, strength, and brutality, rather than the impish goblin who's smaller, smarter, and by necessity less brutal, but more cruel.

(Without knowing my Warhammer lore very well, I view fimir as not really a "greenskin" goblinoid, though I'd lump them in with the other greens within the game because plastic color), I consider those reptiles to delight less in cruelty than a goblin, and be less brutal than an orc. I imagine them to be smarter than both, living a regimented life, and just plain mean. There's a tale on some wiki from a man who was executed for the disappearance and probable murder of his wife. He swore they were out for a walk when a fog rolled in and suddenly these large green monsters appeared out of nowhere and he was knocked senseless before he could react … and his wife was gone.

WE know what happened to her. Better for her if her husband HAD murdered her.

Or worse, they are often depicted as just humans with tusks and gray skin

That's not an orc—that's some pretentious prick at Starbucks in the corner with his laptop and a $7 coffee complaining about how he's slumming it to drink this inferior swill because his preferred, quality espresso establishment is closed at this hour while he works on his routine for poetry night his favorite bistro in a converted industrial building in the hipsteriest part of Portland.

Don't even get me started about what this "orc" posts on Twitter.

… On second thought that might be an "orc" after all.

If you told me this was a half-orc (presuming you allowed for such things, which it sounds like you may personally not), I still wouldn't buy this was a half-orc. Maybe there was orc blood in the family a couple generations ago. But the only way I see that happening involves some rather unhappy and non-consensual mating, probably more than once, to produce something that's more human than not. *siiiiiiigh*

no wonder we got stuck with a lame orc bard in the reboot HQ from Hasbro, anyone who didn't grow up with 80's and 90's orcs doesn't seem to have any idea what an orc is or supposed to be.
They seem to think an orc is just basically Beast from the X-Men completely shaved down to show gray skin.

Orcs should be a different race completely than humans with completely different attributes, mentality and way they are roleplayed (so should elves and dwarves for that matter.) I hate hobbits or halflings depicted as just small humans too, I want them to have different obvious anatomical differences, I much prefer the rounded little GW halflings or the chubby cartoon Hobbit from Rankin and Bass style with oversized hairy feet.

I'm not convinced we're getting the orc bard. They were playing with it as a hero type, asked what we thought, and I think we collectively told them this was completely undesired. I actually described on that thread how a "turned" orc could be done, and ought to be played, not that anyone involved read or would have much liked my post on the subject which somehow did not wind up being the heavily profanity-laced rant I feared it might have become when I set hand to keyboard.

Anyhow, I think a turned orc could work! He'd be hated by all other orcs, and any goblinoid would necessarily target him first. He wouldn't be more intelligent, per se. He'd not know how to explain in meaningful terms how or why he turned from Chaos, nor whom or what he serves now. And he'd still be an orc! I think I described it so: "They hurt things not deserve it. Me hurt things deserve it. They call me traitor. Me call them MEAT!" … completely oblivious to the notion that this doesn't appeal to his new adventuring companions.

This "She Hulk with elf ears and tusks" image of orcs in the public consensus has got to go.

That one can at least pass for half-orc. But again, the armor isn't right for any kind of orc. And the build is all wrong.

HeroQuest, Battlemasters, and Warhammer defined the look of orcs for me forever. I hate all other fantasy franchise depictions of orcs. While I understand the limitations of makeup and prosthetics and CGI, the Lord of the Rings movies orcs just look like dudes in masks rather than another species entirely, which they are supposed to be. I liked the movies and it is as good as it can be but wish to see the GW style orc onscreen someday.

For me it was probably LotR and AD&D 2e.

Tolkien's orcs were more manlike in all but appearance than the orcs we envision, I think. I didn't much care for the appearance of the standard orcs in the Peter Jackson movies because they seemed a little too cartoony. I DID like the uruk-hai though, because they did seem like black-skinned animalistic men. I think that was the desired image, it's near enough what I pictured, and I think they made it work.

The uruk-hai were what you got if you took an orc's strength, build, and brutality and combine that with a man's shape and intelligence and add something distinctly (hunting) animal and you have the uruk-hai! Something Melkor couldn't really (or more likely didn't want to) make when he created the orcs, goblins, and other fell beasts.

My presumption is that Melkor expected his commands to be obeyed without question. He made the orcs to be dumb enough to be controlled easily in their large numbers without having to worry that they might decide to organize against him.

Saruman is confident—perhaps overconfident—in his ability to control the uruk-hai through manipulation. And he'd be right, for a time: "Sauron made them (not quite true), but he made them weak! He made them stupid! He made them lesser beings! Lesser than the elves, lesser even than the humans! But you… You, I made. Smarter than men! (Untrue.) More powerful than elves! (At what?) Vastly superior to uruks of Sauron I made you. And while Sauron's forces will hunt horse-flesh at night, with me you shall feast upon man-flesh by day! Will you serve me, my Fighting Uruk-hai?" That seems totally within character, and it would be effective.

And that would work right up until Sauron gained just enough power to put Saruman in his place, or gained the Ring and simply killed Saruman for his double-cross.

So yes, within Tolkien's story, the uruk-hai worked. But they weren't the normal orcs, and Tolkien's orcs were less animal and more intelligent anyway. They still weren't the modern D&D hipster douchebag though.

[Cael Darkhollow]

The spikes are a bit much...
Otherwise, this fellow looks like a goblinoid. Built for size, strength, and brutality, rather than the impish goblin who's smaller, smarter, and by necessity less brutal, but more cruel.

(Without knowing my Warhammer lore very well, I view fimir as not really a "greenskin" goblinoid, though I'd lump them in with the other greens within the game because plastic color)

Or worse, they are often depicted as just humans with tusks and gray skin

That's not an orc—that's some pretentious prick at Starbucks in the corner with his laptop and a $7 coffee complaining about how he's slumming it to drink this inferior swill because his preferred, quality espresso establishment is closed at this hour while he works on his routine for poetry night his favorite bistro in a converted industrial building in the hipsteriest part of Portland.

Don't even get me started about what this "orc" posts on Twitter.



If you told me this was a half-orc (presuming you allowed for such things, which it sounds like you may personally not), I still wouldn't buy this was a half-orc. Maybe there was orc blood in the family a couple generations ago. But the only way I see that happening involves some rather unhappy and non-consensual mating, probably more than once, to produce something that's more human than not. *siiiiiiigh*

I'm not convinced we're getting the orc bard. They were playing with it as a hero type, asked what we thought, and I think we collectively told them this was completely undesired. I actually described on that thread how a "turned" orc could be done, and ought to be played, not that anyone involved read or would have much liked my post on the subject which somehow did not wind up being the heavily profanity-laced rant I feared it might have become when I set hand to keyboard.

For me it was probably LotR and AD&D 2e.

Tolkien's orcs were more manlike in all but appearance than the orcs we envision, I think. I didn't much care for the appearance of the standard orcs in the Peter Jackson movies because they seemed a little too cartoony. I DID like the uruk-hai though, because they did seem like black-skinned animalistic men. I think that was the desired image, it's near enough what I pictured, and I think they made it work.

The uruk-hai were what you got if you took an orc's strength, build, and brutality and combine that with a man's shape and intelligence and add something distinctly (hunting) animal and you have the uruk-hai! Something Melkor couldn't really (or more likely didn't want to) make when he created the orcs, goblins, and other fell beasts.

My presumption is that Melkor expected his commands to be obeyed without question. He made the orcs to be dumb enough to be controlled easily in their large numbers without having to worry that they might decide to organize against him.

Saruman is confident—perhaps overconfident—in his ability to control the uruk-hai through manipulation. And he'd be right, for a time: "Sauron made them (not quite true), but he made them weak! He made them stupid! He made them lesser beings! Lesser than the elves, lesser even than the humans! But you… You, I made. Smarter than men! (Untrue.) More powerful than elves! (At what?) Vastly superior to uruks of Sauron I made you. And while Sauron's forces will hunt horse-flesh at night, with me you shall feast upon man-flesh by day! Will you serve me, my Fighting Uruk-hai?" That seems totally within character, and it would be effective.

And that would work right up until Sauron gained just enough power to put Saruman in his place, or gained the Ring and simply killed Saruman for his double-cross.

So yes, within Tolkien's story, the uruk-hai worked. But they weren't the normal orcs, and Tolkien's orcs were less animal and more intelligent anyway. They still weren't the modern D&D hipster douchebag though.

The first photo of the spiky armor "orc" in my previous post looks nothing like a proper goblinoid to me, it looks like an ogre who works out (as opposed to the flabbier HQ ogre look) with green skin. Most of the dnd (or other current fantasy) miniatures have this waaaay taller than a human buff dude weight lifter in a pony tail look, then they throw some tusks on it and voila! its supposed to be an orc! I don't think so. It didn't look right in the Warcraft movie, it looks dumb in art and minis. Orcs don't look like that to me.

The second pic, it seems we share the sentiment that this is a Starbucks douche "orc",
not a war scarred blood lust orc or a skulking creeping orc or a minion of Morcar/Zargon orc. Far from Tokien who invented the concept of fantasy orcs. it is a travesty and this crap opened the door to PC orc characters that are only orc in name as some sort of angst culture anithero.

I do not consider Fimir to be greenskins at all, but rather a separate unrelated monstrous race of humanoids. In D&D there is a one eyed orc god though...

I do like half-orcs. Hailing from the earliest days of D&D then Warhammer, half orcs are a staple of the fantasy genre. A degenerate race of outcasts disdained by both species, likely the product of human slave stock in orc villages and used as slave labor or cannon fodder. Any orc depicted with hair is half orc at best to me.

We are certainly getting the orc bard. It was promised as a pledge marker goal that we reached, they cannot renege on their reached goals add ons now that the money is all said and done.

I think the Black Orcs in Warhammer, the toughest most militant most intelligent orcs are equal to the Hobgoblins in the D&D world, which are equal to the Uruk-hai in Tolkien. Thats how I see it.

In D&D bugbears are also considered goblinoids, which would also be a large fighter type much bigger than a goblin or regular orc. The modern depictions of "orcs" could be viewed as less hairy bugbears...although I vastly prefer the traditional bugbear look, they haven't managed to screw that one up yet like they did with orcs.

[cornixt]

Not a fan of the guys in the neat but well-worn tunics and ornately crafted belts?

[Kurgan]

My first exposure to an artistic representation of "orcs" was probably the theatrical "Lord of the Rings" animated film (yes, that one), where they were barbarian looking guys with a green tint and rotoscoped to have big white fangs and glowing red eyes. Apparently much of them was taken from battle stock footage from the film Alexander Nevsky. At other times they were just dudes in scary masks.

I too had the original "Warcraft: Orcs and Humans" on PC. And the HeroQuest miniature Orcs have become inconic for me. Goblins too, although I understood there were many different versions of goblins out there. For me in those days elves were either like the HeroQuest elf or like Santa's elves (basically just little people or fantasy dwarfs). I played Warcraft 2 and 3 but I wasn't into World of Warcraft. I saw the movie but the art style wasn't my favorite. I didn't play D&D (or know anybody that did) so all I knew about it as a kid was the saturday morning cartoon and we had a few of the big rubber figures (none of which were monsters) that we got on some vacation or another on a whim. I haven't revisited the cartoon since childhood so I barely remember it other than the kids, the evil guy that antagonizes them, "dungeon master" and that multi-headed dragon which I had to look up its name ("Tiamat" like the Enuma Elish water dragon goddess)... don't even remember orcs from it. So I guess that has shaped my view of it today.

So as a kid, for me "fantasy" was the Conan the Barbarian movies (what little I could see of them on tv), the Tolkien-based cartoons (and a few others like "The Last Unicorn"), Warcraft and Hero Quest. I much preferred to read about King Arthur and his knights than indulge in much of the modern fantasy. I didn't even read the Hobbit or LOTR on my own until the 21st century (though my father read the Hobbit to my younger brother and so I must have sat and listened to at least part of it). I was back then (and still am) more of a sci-fi fan ("fantasy" in the broadest sense in encompasses of these I realize). I liked video games but was always more action game focused, so there was Gauntlet and Golden Axe (no orcs there).

I guess I think of Orcs today more like a low-tech version of the most stereotypical of Klingons from Star Trek TNG. Zealot warriors who fill out their ranks with a lot of useful idiots who love to fight and are just crude in general. Klingons of course being a blend of stereotypical (from western eyes) mongols, and vikings in space (with just a hint of soviet russia).

And yeah I know it's the "disposable dumb bad guy army" that are supposed to be the cannon fodder for the good guys as in so much other fiction. I don't have a problem with singling out individuals to be particularly smart, crafty, or nuanced of course and HeroQuest does that with its interpretation of Orcs as well.

And of course these are fantasy creatures, without any singular analog in any earth culture, race or species. I appreciate the fact that in the Peter Jackson Tolkien adaptations the Orcs never just had one look.