Please help me out of a quandary...

[Parzival]

What's First Light? I've heard of it, I think I used to know, rereleased US version with more rule changes?

I love old D&D, not from tabletop, from old goldbox games. The necromancer's Deathbolt spell from Wizard of Morcar is more like Magic Missile, LoS and damage automatically.

Yea they don't wake up when attacked for US Sleep but it's a lot easier for them to wake up at the start of their turn. That's a brutal version of Sleep you're using, old school D&D helpless condition was hardcore, and D&D Sleep was a large AoE! It only worked on a combined total of HP though so it was OP AF to start with then next to useless before long.

First Light is the more public version of HeroQuest. In attempts to reach a wider audience Hasbro/Avalon Hill released a new starting quest pack through Target. So if you go to a local Target store you might find it in the board game section. It's a much more condensed version, the monsters and furniture are all in tile form. I'm surprised you never heard of it. But they reworded most of the spells and character cards.

First Light is a cheap entry into the game, sold exclusively at Target (US retail chain)— $50 vs $135.
Here’s my review: https://parzivalsplace.blogspot.com/2025/04/first-steps-into-first-light.html

I believe the Target exclusive retail license of the game has expired, and it is now appearing in other chains/online sources, but I’m not certain on that.

Unfortunately, FL does “nerf” some of the magic, with intentional wording that can’t be disputed in meaning, but are also a definite change in intent from the original UK spells, as well as even the implied language of the 2021 US release.

[Gold Bearer]

There is also a more variety in the Treasure deck (Holy Water, Nothing, Treasure Horde and other Gold cards are missing in the US version).

Yea I just noticed that while making my new treasure cards with the card art from here, the potion of speed is missing too and they renamed the potion of resilience. Gun/Bible/Burger Quest gets funnier every time I look at it a little deeper. I can only assume no potion of speed because of their ridiculous war on drugs (how's that going? I swear if we found a new element for the periodic table they'd try to declare war on it), holy water was removed because christians there are especially insane, the nothing card would confuse them and resilience is far too long a word so they changed it to defence, and spelled it wrong.

[Parzival]

There is also a more variety in the Treasure deck (Holy Water, Nothing, Treasure Horde and other Gold cards are missing in the US version).

Yea I just noticed that while making my new treasure cards with the card art from here, the potion of speed is missing too and they renamed the potion of resilience. Gun/Bible/Burger Quest gets funnier every time I look at it a little deeper. I can only assume no potion of speed because of their ridiculous war on drugs (how's that going? I swear if we found a new element for the periodic table they'd try to declare war on it), holy water was removed because christians there are especially insane, the nothing card would confuse them and resilience is far too long a word so they changed it to defence, and spelled it wrong.

Dude, devout Christian here and Southerner from the heart of the “Bible Belt.” Gamer and D&Der from 1979 (age 14) on. Never personally saw or heard of any objection to either D&D or HeroQuest during my entire adolescence. Used to play it at a Baptist summer camp, too. Back in the day the media tried to play the anti-D&D craze up, but that was just a loud and confused minority— as minority groups tend to be on any spectrum. So, no, there’s no significant mainstream conservative or Christian backlash against HQ whatsoever. Pockets here and there, but that’s always the case. People fear that which they do not understand. And that is true of any group/faith/political party of any kind.

But I will say that the RPG designers in America greatly dislike the loose interpretation of spells, and work tirelessly to nerf good spells into absolute impotency. I don’t know if they think the spells are unfair, or it hurts their railroaded adventure scripts (Thou Shalt Not Be Cleverer Than the Game Designer), but the impetus is all from that. (5e D&D is bad about it, but Pathfinder 2.0 is even worse. You can’t even use the Sleep spell in a combat encounter!)
Or it could be boardgame people sticking to the idea that Zargon is playing to win, too.

The best option is to “de-nerf” everything.

[The Admiral]

There is also a more variety in the Treasure deck (Holy Water, Nothing, Treasure Horde and other Gold cards are missing in the US version).

Yea I just noticed that while making my new treasure cards with the card art from here, the potion of speed is missing too and they renamed the potion of resilience. Gun/Bible/Burger Quest gets funnier every time I look at it a little deeper. I can only assume no potion of speed because of their ridiculous war on drugs (how's that going? I swear if we found a new element for the periodic table they'd try to declare war on it), holy water was removed because christians there are especially insane, the nothing card would confuse them and resilience is far too long a word so they changed it to defence, and spelled it wrong.

On the opposite side of the coin, progressives love equality, so they can't have anyone being faster than someone else (Speed potion out), free stuff for everyone (Nothing out), They hate Christians (Holy water out) and they love to dumb everything down (resilience out)

Two sides to every coin.

[Gold Bearer]

It was a joke!

Dude, devout Christian here and Southerner from the heart of the “Bible Belt.” Gamer and D&Der from 1979 (age 14) on. Never personally saw or heard of any objection to either D&D or HeroQuest during my entire adolescence. Used to play it at a Baptist summer camp, too. Back in the day the media tried to play the anti-D&D craze up, but that was just a loud and confused minority— as minority groups tend to be on any spectrum. So, no, there’s no significant mainstream conservative or Christian backlash against HQ whatsoever. Pockets here and there, but that’s always the case. People fear that which they do not understand. And that is true of any group/faith/political party of any kind.

It happened to D&D so they took out holy water, that's my head canon until proven otherwise. In fairness in D&D you can make actual devil pacts, I think all that kind of stuff came later though. After all the free publicity went away they probably tried leaning into the demonic to get it back.

But I will say that the RPG designers in America greatly dislike the loose interpretation of spells, and work tirelessly to nerf good spells into absolute impotency. I don’t know if they think the spells are unfair, or it hurts their railroaded adventure scripts (Thou Shalt Not Be Cleverer Than the Game Designer), but the impetus is all from that. (5e D&D is bad about it, but Pathfinder 2.0 is even worse. You can’t even use the Sleep spell in a combat encounter!)
Or it could be boardgame people sticking to the idea that Zargon is playing to win, too.

The best option is to “de-nerf” everything.

I have absolutely no clue why they thought making weak spells worse (especially the fire spells) was the way to go. I don't know Pathfinder at all, I've heard good things. I thought D&D spells were buffed in 5e? Counterspell definitely was, I think they took away spell crits in the update though which is strange because the direct damage spells tended to be weaker anyway. Apparently paladins now need to say they're smiting before rolling to hit, ouch! I only really know 1st and 5th D&D.

On the opposite side of the coin, progressives love equality, so they can't have anyone being faster than someone else (Speed potion out), free stuff for everyone (Nothing out), They hate Christians (Holy water out) and they love to dumb everything down (resilience out)

WOW! I didn't get remotely political. Do you actually think those points are in any way valid? You think progressives want everyone to be the same and don't appreciate differences? Equality would be well balanced (with each other) heroes, not four basically the same heroes. I think you'll find people who seem to hate christians find all religion abhorrent and are just forced with having to have far more contact with the bible variety. I love religion in a mythology context though, angels, demons etc, very cool. Free stuff for everybody like heath care and education so that kids born into poverty stand a chance, yes. How horrible. Dumbing down is something that's happening in general, do you actually believe it's coming more from 'progressives'?

Two sides to every coin.

Yours (as in your examples) makes no sense.

[Parzival]

I’m not aware that Holy Water got taken out of D&D. It might simply have been that it’s an oddly European concept that becomes somewhat inexplicable in a pantheistic setting. (Really, it’s borrowed from vampire movies.) I recall some discussion of it as illogical and anachronistic in the D&D world way before or after anybody cared about the Satanic Panic. But it didn’t have to do with anyone’s actual religious beliefs either way. (I can understand if an extremely devout Catholic might object to its presence, but my gaming group consisted of 3 Baptists, 4 Catholics, 2 Episcopalians (US Anglicans), a Presbyterian, 2 Methodists, and an agnostic, and none of us thought anything of it.) It was retained in the BECMI line (1982-1989) and the Rules Cyclopedia(1991) , so clearly TSR didn’t care. (Never played 2e or later until 5e).

It’s in the 2021 HQ edition, too. I seriously doubt that anybody at WotC/Avalon Hill gives a rat’s patoot about any such complaints.

(For what it’s worth, an episode of the (great) tv show Castle has the eponymous hero bash someone with a bottle of holy water because he thought that person was a serial killer returned from the grave. As far as I know, nobody took offense.)

[Vorimir]

I'd love a Holy Water and a 100 gold coins treasure cards to recreate the EU one. 400 coins for HW is way expensive and players never buy it but if they get it for free...

[Gold Bearer]

I’m not aware that Holy Water got taken out of D&D.

No I meant they took it out of Burger Quest because of the christian backlash around the same time towards D&D.

I'd love a Holy Water and a 100 gold coins treasure cards to recreate the EU one. 400 coins for HW is way expensive and players never buy it but if they get it for free...

I have an awesome treasure coming. I wanted to do the spells first but got diverted by treasure card ideas when gathering the card art.

[Gold Bearer]

Could someone please upload that hilarious old wondering monster pic? Goblin King uploaded it a few times in various topics when people (including me) spelled it with an o but those images are gone and it's not with the other art. I MUST have a wondering monster in my treasure deck!

[Parzival]

I’m not aware that Holy Water got taken out of D&D.

No I meant they took it out of Burger Quest because of the christian backlash around the same time towards D&D.

That’s odd, as the Satanic Panic fell away in the ‘80s, before HQ was on the scene in the US. I’m not familiar with the details of the US edition, but there was only ever one (plus some expansion packs), so Holy Water, if in it, would never have been “removed” from it by any American source, regardless of politics, faith, or anything else. There was never a second edition to remove it from!

So if Games Workshop (UK) dumped it in a subsequent edition, that’s on y’all’s side of the pond, not ours!

I think something got confused here. If an expansion set didn’t include an repeat of the Holy Water card, that doesn’t mean it was dropped, it just means an expansion didn’t need the card because it was already in the core game being expanded. I seriously doubt there was a notation saying “You can’t use the Holy Water card any more” in any expansion set.