Ye Olde Inn

by **Shadzar** » February 27th, 2021, 2:36 pm

Kurgan wrote:Whatever they decide to do in the future, their bottom line will determine whether it was a wise decision.

I don't hate anybody on this board for their politics, and I never will. I frankly don't care about that stuff when I come here to talk about a fantasy board game. If more people did that, we'd have a merrier world I think...

If i remember, you are one with a thread about unboxing IF and when the game ships.

Their botton lime is:
$3,722,649 Pledged
Target $1,000,000

They have our money, and for 3 months have made no attempt communication, except to try to sell every Power Ranger, Star Wars, and Transformer product they have coming out in the "newsletter" with zero information on HeroQuest.

so for the remaining 8 months until potential shipping date, we have this thread to express our worry, and hopefully signal to HASBRO on the worlds largest HeroQuest community that people are NOT interested in this woke culture crap and "forced diversity politics" or "critical race theory" injected into the game.

Wizards of the Coast website is updating after the announcement of the "Wizards Division" at HASBRO, and has a new logo, but the company page still lists Avalon Hill as part of Wizards of the Coast, which will be in charge of "games"? I dont even know what that means, if Wizards will be taking control of Monopoly even, and then take HeroQuest back? https://company.wizards.com

so again, if they end up in your unboxing thread putting a bunch of woke crap into the game, then many people are likely to be returning unopened product to HASBRO for a refund, which will kill their bottom line. We havent reached Admiral Gender Studies levels from Last Jedi yet, and in this thread, we are trying to PREVENT it from ever happening to HeroQuest. :mrgreen:

Point taken. I would say I don't believe that Hero Quest is racist, sexist, homophobic or whatever else "they" might want to say against it. It just isn't, unless you impose that upon it. Even if you thought it was somehow imperfect, as a player you have the freedom to impose those politics on it, to the approval (or chagrin) of your personal gaming group.

I don't mind there being more female characters in there. I thought it was cool that the EQP/BQP had an option and I wanted to see a female Dwarf and Wizard too (which was planned but never released I guess). I joked that they needed to give us a female gargoyle and skeleton too, but whatever. If that helps entice some little girls to play the game, great, more the merrier.

But if a gaming company like Hasbro Starts from the standpoint that "some people online are complaining that we need to enforce their political beliefs in this game" that's a problem. If they start from the assumption "the people who buy our games are bad people with wrong beliefs... so let's try to force and shame them into changing those beliefs with our product" they are headed for disaster.

Yes, they did start with $1 million and got more than that, but as others pointed out, kickstarters for Reaper regularly generated $3 million and Hasbro DID ask for up to $2 million, and kept increasing that to $4 million which they fell short of.

I agree not giving us info could be a bad sign. Or it could be a good sign that there's nothing really to talk about.

We "bought it" sight unseen more or less. Yes, they could change stuff at the last minute. The fact that they changed the Druid's outfit after comments and promised the colored minis after comments, shows they are listening (or else they planned that all along and PLAYED us I guess).

I don't care about their other projects, it's true. I'm not loyal to the Hasbro brand. I am only interested in this because it's supposed to be a mostly faithful re-release of Hero Quest a game I happen to love.

We will do the unboxings precisely BECAUSE of Hasbro's lack of transparency, their tight lips and lack of info for those who want more. Yes, it would be better if they just answered all our questions. Part of me wants them to stick to their guns with what they intend for this remake. Another part of me (a BIG part) wants it not to suck. If it does suck, I hope they lose money and this teaches them a lesson not to disappoint their target audience, we the fans.

90 days to return it UNOPENED after it arrives on your doorstep for a REFUND. So those of you who are worried, WATCH/READ/LISTEN to the unboxings from us, and from others (watch out for paid shills however... that's another reason we're doing it, of COURSE a paid person or someone who got the game for free will most likely say it's great and downplay flaws). I don't work for any of the companies involved and I'm not loyal to them, I'm only loyal to a product I love, that already exists and won't be replaced by anything new they put out, official license or not.

So yes, it would be much better if they just release a good product that is true to the 90's versions of Hero Quest, rather than ruin it and force us to salvage from the rubble some semblance of a good game with our imaginations.

by **Shadzar** » February 27th, 2021, 4:05 pm

Kurgan wrote:But if a gaming company like Hasbro Starts from the standpoint that "some people online are complaining that we need to enforce their political beliefs in this game" that's a problem. If they start from the assumption "the people who buy our games are bad people with wrong beliefs... so let's try to force and shame them into changing those beliefs with our product" they are headed for disaster.

1000% this, and that is what is being done by WotC to not only D&D but MtG. So people are trying to prevent them from doing it to HQ, and everything else. |_P

by **Davane** » February 27th, 2021, 4:13 pm

It doesn't matter where "making the Orcs good guys" actually comes from. The problem is that Warhammer already established that Orcs are NOT good guys, and for any sort of consistency in tone for official content, it should stay that way unless there is a VERY GOOD explanation as to why Orcs are good.

It's not unusual to see bad guys as heroes. WHQ officially has an armour plated Chaos Warrior has a HERO. Full pack, how they advance using chaos gifts and mutations, all the while trying to avoid being consumed by the Warp and turning into Chaos Spawn. That's totally legit, and other "dark" heroes are more than feasible in HQ.

The problem is that, as designed, the Orc Bard IS a good guy, and that just makes it come across as so forced. Orcs appeared in Dogs of War, and are no strangers to being mercenaries throughout the Warhammer World, so there's plenty of opportunities for Orc heroes in such games. There's so little orcishness about the Orc Bard, that it's an insult. It's like the Orcish equivalent of Blackface.

It's also basic 101 of campaign design: Make your races meaningful - else they just become people in funny hats. We all know what the Orc tropes are, and they exist for a reason, and contrast with the tropes of Elves, or Dwarves. Just because you take Elf tropes and call them Orcs doesn't make them Orcs - it makes them Elves that are called Orcs. Hence, "Elves in funny hats," because they might as well be wearing a facemask for all that makes them Orcish.

The saddest point is that hyping an Orc hero and then making them an Elven Bard with tusks is more insulting than treating Orcs as monsters. Making Orcs good is just insulting, without the groundwork of why THESE Orcs are good.

It's certainly possible to do good Orcs. The Hollow World has a culture of civilised, good Orcs called Blackmoor Orcs, preserved following the destruction of Blackmoor about 10,000 years before the Known World of Mystara's "current" setting (Dave Arneson's contribution to D&D besides having the privilege of creating and running the first ever fantasy roleplaying game for D&D, in the World of Blackmoor.

It sums up Hasbro's whole attitude to HQ. They have our money and are basically half-arsing the whole thing, as a bunch of has-beens and wanna-bes come together to make "new" content for a game they've either lost touch with or never played in the first place.

It doesn't matter what we can do with the game afterwards. This is the Rule 0 fallacy. Parents don't buy board games because little Timmy can turn the Abominations back to Fimir. People aren't going to make their minds up about a game over House Rules. They can't - everybody's house rules are different. You can only review based on the rules as written, and as written, we have an Orc, who for absolutely no reason given the role of OTHER Orcs in HQ, has decided to be good. Not some sort of mercenary dark hero that was popular in the 80's and 90's, but genuinely good - like Hasbro has some sort of Orc Bard Plushie Action Figure Cartoon Line coming off the back this ("Now with realistic Luting action!").

Hasbro doesn't make games, they make TOYS. Hasbro buys companies that make games, and then rips their IPs to bits milking them for toys. Their entire attitude to HQ shows their ripping off this IP looking for marketable character for some new action cartoon series with a line of toys in mind. That's why the Orc isn't some Dread Pirate or hard-bitten Mercenary, but a foppish dandy that's more Elven than the Female Elf that is in the main box!

The Orc Bard is about as offensive as a shaved Wookie - it undermines the fundamental tropes of being an Orc or Wookie or whatever, to the point you have to ask, why are you even bothering? If there's no difference being an Orc or a Elf, then why bother choosing whether you are Human, Elven, or Orc in the first place?

That's the problem here - so many people are left with the sense of "Why are they doing this?" over the Orc Bard, you have to wonder whether they actually know the HQ franchise they are working with, and/or whether they put any sort of thought into how Orcs exists in the game, and how THIS Orc is supposed to react to happily slaughtering his comrades for the sake of his team of heroes as they romp through the Bastion of Chaos...

by **Kurgan** » February 27th, 2021, 5:03 pm

So in the last quest, the Orc guys betray the other Heroes, and it leads to a deathmatch!

And Davane, I'm not going to debate you (and rehash anything) but regarding this "Rule 0 Fallacy" I'm going to clarify that that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying I am okay with it sucking because we can make up our own mods and "fix it later." I still want it to be good!

We have no context for the Orc Bard other than the Hero character as is. Yes, I hope he's "made to fit" somehow or they can be sure nobody will use him. But imagine if there is never any context provided. Imagine if he's not a character given his own quest pack or introduced in a quest or two. He's just a character floating free. People will mock it and ignore it and so on. Maybe that will limit the "damage" of such an absurd addition.

Only people who pledged the campaign and got the "Mythic" tier package will see this Orc Bard character, and we have no evidence of how big he figures in any of the new quests, if it all. It remains to be seen what they will say about him. I too hope it doesn't suck, and if it does, I'll criticize it.

Yes, I agree things should "not suck" out of the box. I'm in no way defending it, I'm only saying it's not the end of the world if it totally sucks. I am all for there not being stupid additions to a game even if it's 99% the same and good despite that 1% stupid. But I'm also not going to reject the whole thing in protest just because 1 addition ends up being dumb. I get what you guys are all saying about "lore" and such, but we just have a profound lack of info at this time (which is why we're doing the unboxings... we shouldn't have to do that). We can only guess that whatever they come up with might not adhere to a greater Warhammer fantasy precedent, but if it did, then fans like yourself will be reassured, I'm sure.

So yes, to any Hasbro/Avalon Hill insiders reading this, we want a good explanation for why this character should be taken seriously. We don't want the whole thing ruined and turned upside down to make him fit, but yeah... make it a good one. Who knows if any backstory has been written at all.

And correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Hasbro own MB (and hence HeroQuest) back in the day too? So that hasn't changed, they just reacquired what was once theirs. This isn't like Disney swooping in and buying Star Wars from George Lucas (it wasn't a hostile takeover, even though he regretted his decision later) and remaking it in their image, even if Stephen Baker is a bit player this time rather than the big guy in charge.

So if you want to pin me to the wall on this, no, I don't want or need an "Orc Bard." But if you're going to give me one, give me a good reason, so it doesn't just look like some random bit of red paint tossed onto the corner of the masterpiece that I'm going to want to painstakingly scrape off later. But it also doesn't mean a poor addition like this kills the whole franchise for me either. Hope that's clear enough!

And as far as merch goes, funko pops can die a death (I much preferred their "reaction" line).

by **Kurgan** » February 27th, 2021, 5:25 pm

Fine, you guys have convinced me... let's complain louder so they won't ruin the game and spread the word. But let's not attack EACH OTHER and ruin THIS community we have here in the process... please? I'm on your side when it comes to not ruining nostalgic franchises.

by **j_dean80** » February 27th, 2021, 5:40 pm

The Hero is called “Bard” not “Orc Bard”. Just replace with whatever miniature you want. What bothers me more is “Bard Spells”. He’s not casting magic spells, but rather playing a song and/or singing. It needs a different name on the card. “Bard Ability” “Bard Action” or something else.