Overview of the Old World

[j_dean80]

Now this is what this thread is for, love it.

[Davane]

Interesting idea about the Elven kingdom being in Laurelorn, I.e. inside the Empire. That’s a possibility for sure. We also don’t know when exactly Heroquest takes place in the history of the Old World. It’s not inconceivable that Laurelorn had a Queen at some point, and her name was Terrellia.

I’m with Daedalus in that I also like the comment that the HQ elf models are compatible with wood Elf regiments of the same period. Not ever having the privilege of owning those HQ figures, I went the other way and used Warhammer plastic wood elves as proxies for the Elf quest pack, and they look great.

To be honest, it doesn't even need to be in the Laurelorn forest. There's wood elf clans hidden throughout the forests of the Empire, and it quite possible that Queen is a title for a Wood Elf clan leader.

Plus, there's always the Border Princes - that's full of self-styled "kings" and "queens", even if their domain consists of three people and a goat...a Wood Elf clan with a "Queen" would certainly be right at home there, but like everything else in that wilderness, unlikely to last very long, especially if a bunch of Mentor's "murder hobos" do some Heroing on them...

I don’t think the Elf pack is set in the Border Princes. The intro story and the quest notes make it clear that we are talking about a proper established kingdom with a long, noble history. Athel Loren, or Laurelorn, would be a much better fit.

Long and noble by who's reckoning, exactly? Plus, given how secretive the Wood Elves are, especially in and around the Empire, it's entirely possible that a long an established Elven kingdom with a long and noble history exists, above the petty politics of man (often literally, WFRP has most Wood Elves living in tree top settlements above the eyes of most creatures in the dark forests throughout the Empire and beyond).

My point is that, depending upon interpretation, the Elf pack can be set almost anywhere where there's a possible Elven population. Most of the cities in the Empire and elsewhere in the Old World have been built on the ruins of Elven settlements that fell during the War of the Beard and through other calamities, with their inhabitant dispersed. As a long-live race, any group of dispossessed Elves might consider themselves a kingdom with a long and noble history, regardless of the state of the actual land they are residing in.

[Pancho]

Interesting idea about the Elven kingdom being in Laurelorn, I.e. inside the Empire. That’s a possibility for sure. We also don’t know when exactly Heroquest takes place in the history of the Old World. It’s not inconceivable that Laurelorn had a Queen at some point, and her name was Terrellia.

I’m with Daedalus in that I also like the comment that the HQ elf models are compatible with wood Elf regiments of the same period. Not ever having the privilege of owning those HQ figures, I went the other way and used Warhammer plastic wood elves as proxies for the Elf quest pack, and they look great.

To be honest, it doesn't even need to be in the Laurelorn forest. There's wood elf clans hidden throughout the forests of the Empire, and it quite possible that Queen is a title for a Wood Elf clan leader.

Plus, there's always the Border Princes - that's full of self-styled "kings" and "queens", even if their domain consists of three people and a goat...a Wood Elf clan with a "Queen" would certainly be right at home there, but like everything else in that wilderness, unlikely to last very long, especially if a bunch of Mentor's "murder hobos" do some Heroing on them...

I don’t think the Elf pack is set in the Border Princes. The intro story and the quest notes make it clear that we are talking about a proper established kingdom with a long, noble history. Athel Loren, or Laurelorn, would be a much better fit.

Long and noble by who's reckoning, exactly? Plus, given how secretive the Wood Elves are, especially in and around the Empire, it's entirely possible that a long an established Elven kingdom with a long and noble history exists, above the petty politics of man (often literally, WFRP has most Wood Elves living in tree top settlements above the eyes of most creatures in the dark forests throughout the Empire and beyond).

My point is that, depending upon interpretation, the Elf pack can be set almost anywhere where there's a possible Elven population. Most of the cities in the Empire and elsewhere in the Old World have been built on the ruins of Elven settlements that fell during the War of the Beard and through other calamities, with their inhabitant dispersed. As a long-live race, any group of dispossessed Elves might consider themselves a kingdom with a long and noble history, regardless of the state of the actual land they are residing in.

Wood Elves are secretive, yes, but they actually require woods to be secretive in The Border Princes are not known for having large forests .
I suppose you could put the Elven Kingdom in the Border Princes or some other oddball place, but why bother, when you already have a far better alternative already set up for you? I’m going from memory here but the Elf quest pack seems to set up the adventure as being in the Elven Kingdom, as if it’s the main one in the Old World. Just seems a bit strange to try and force it into a much smaller enclave that nobody has ever heard of. But it’s your game, set it wherever you like. No biggy. Heroquest is usually sufficiently vague as to endanger these kind of discussions where no one can be shown to be definitely right either way.

[Pancho]

Interesting idea about the Elven kingdom being in Laurelorn, I.e. inside the Empire. That’s a possibility for sure. We also don’t know when exactly Heroquest takes place in the history of the Old World. It’s not inconceivable that Laurelorn had a Queen at some point, and her name was Terrellia.

Ah but we DO know when HQ was in the Warhammer timeline, if we make some reasonable (based on the evidence) assumptions.

HQ was written mainly during 3rd edition WH and the earliest 4th edition. 4th WHFB main box set came out on 1992, the same year as the last HQ products: White Dwarf 145 with HQ adventure, and the Elf and Barbarian Quest packs.
4th edition army books then started coming out a year later in 1993.

Okay. So that gives us a definitive "has to be before" date for any HQ publication on the timeline.
The in-game timeline advances based on those WH/HQ publications as well, the current time line for 4th edition WHFB was set as sometime after 2502 on the Imperial calendar, which marked the year of ascension of Karl Franz, the current reining Emperor. So current day for 4th edition would be within a decade of his crowning, let's say 2502-2512 to give him enough time to be the emperor for a bit.

Now HeroQuest obviously mentions "the Empire" throughout so we can establish a concrete "cannot be before" date as Imperial year 50. Sigmar forges the Empire in year 1, then disappears in year 50, the elector counts are established to determine the new emperor.

HQ must occur no earlier than IC 50 but no later than 2501. So now we have 2450 years of Empire timeline in which to figure out when HQ was.

Some emperors and their dates of reign are known eliminating those periods from consideration E.g. 1124-1152 Emperor Manfred. 1053-1115 Emperor Boris Goldgather, etc.
Heinreich 1 ruled 51-100.

the first gap where the rulers are unknown is 101-300 (200 years)
another gap occurs somewhere between 322 and
479 (157 years)
another from early 500s to 677 (170 years give or take)
a final gap from 732-1000 although we have some emperor names in that period. (200ish years)

from 1053-2302 the emperors are known or there is internal strife with multiple known claimants to the throne, clearly not the time of HQ.
after 2302 all the emperors are well known or no gaps exist larger than a decade or two.

If we place HQ in any one of the earlier known gaps it could be anywhere in those missing roughly 727 years. we have just narrowed the 2450 years of the Empire between must be after the IC 50 date and cannot be after date of IC 2501 considerably.
You could comfortably squeeze HQ in any of those four 150-200 year gaps in the early history of the Empire.

But I believe we can narrow further still.
the time period after 2302 to 2501 is well known,
but if we assume that prince Magnus mentioned in HQ is also the Emperor mentioned in HQ, as emperors in Warhammer retain all their previous titles. Then we can actually pin point on the WH timeline exactly when HQ takes place:

I need to read up on my Warhammer Lore to do this properly (been some time since I used anything deeper than an overview for background purposes), but I'd set it in the earlier part of the Empire, probably shortly after Magnus the Pious becomes Emperor. The Empire is still primitive enough that the events of HQ could have happened, even if they weren't necessarily documented. The Emperor and his army are busy claiming lands and fighting off unusually coordinated greenskin attacks on the borders of the Empire, and at least one of these happens to be near Karak Varn.

Both Prince Magnus and the Emperor mentioned in HeroQuest are one and the same.
AND are the same Emperor Magnus elected in 2304 in the Warhammer world.

In Warhammer, the last current emperor Karl Franz was the Elector Count of Reikland, Prince of Altdorf, and the Emperor of the realm maintaining all titles concurrently.

Prince Magnus from HeroQuest and Warhammer would be the Prince of Nuln, the same individual known as Magnus the Pious, a noble of Nuln, who repelled the largest Chaos invasion known as the Great War against Chaos in 2302-2303 and became Emperor in 2304 as the people demanded it. During his reign he spent much effort to eradicate remaining Chaos warbands throughout his lands, "the servants of Chaos were hunted down in the forests, and many wild and long-abandoned lands were re-settled."

HeroQuest is set in the period right after Magnus of Nuln was elected emperor and then spent his remaining reign trying to eradicate remaining Chaos pockets in his realm.

We know that Emperor Magnus established the colleges of magic during his reign. "Originally established by the High Elf archmage Teclis at the request of Magnus the Pious, in 2304 IC, following the Great War against Chaos and Magnus's ascension to the Imperial throne." This jives with the transition of elemental magic used in 3rd edition Warhammer and HeroQuest to the trained battle magic found in the 8 disciplines taught by the elf wizard Teclis in the colleges, used as the magic system in 4th edition WH on.
We know that the other Milton Bradley game in conjunction with Games Workshop, Battlemasters released in 1992 also has Imperial forces clashing with Chaos armies so fits the cleaning up the great war Chaos remnants of Magnus's reign period as well.

Magnus was emperor from 2304-2369 so the events of HeroQuest and Battlemasters would happen during that 65 year period, but much more likely right after the Chaos war aftermath in the first 20-30 years of his rule while he was still cleaning up the empire, so sometime between the years 2304-2335 on the Imperial Calendar.

This explains somewhat the Emperors desperate plight trapped in Kellars Keep of Karak Varn, the Empire was still reeling from the Great War and defeat of the Chaos Army general in 2303 at Praag, and Chaos forces still roamed the lands.
It also explains the dire peril of the WitchLord's return as the Empire is in ruins and needs to be rebuilt, hardly able to face another strong foe immediately.

The Emperor had only just been recently re-established and stabilized. "Rebuilding of the Empire. Magnus estabishes his court at Nuln."
The aftermath of the war was still a period of great turmoil and danger, his need for heroes and champions was great. His forces were largely depleted from the war, giving him cause to hire Heroes for hire or mercenaries as Prince of Nuln (Prince Magnus gold in HQ) from his personal coffers rather than from the empires depleted resources expended in the war and lawless pretender period prior.
This would explain the HQ wizard using elemental magic as the battle magic was just starting to be taught in 2304 so he likely wouldn't have been able to study it yet.

It gives reason for the HQ Barbarian to head north for a homefaring, the north was just overrun by a Chaos incursion, he wanted to find out the fate of his kin, only to find out there still are chaos threats such as the Frozen Horror to battle.

I believe the events of HeroQuest occur on the Warhammer timeline sometime in the years 1304-1335 some 200 years before the current setting of 4th edition Warhammer.

Interesting food for thought there. Hmmm. Lots to ponder
What interests me in your post is that Mordheim (another absolutely brilliant GW game, with some similarities to Heroquest) would then also set around the same kind of time? It was Emperor Magnus the Pious who finally ordered the cursed city to be completely raised to the ground. Seems to be a fascinating period of time, even for Warhammer’s fantastic standards...


Another thing you wrote that sparked my interest was the inception of the Colleges of magic. There are 8 colleges. They could have arisen from the four elemental spell choices that we are used to from Heroquest. It’s a bit of a push but each element could kind of have two of the later colleges associated with it. Like a more refined version of the more “primitive” magic system we have in HQ. Pre-Teclis, the human wizards were using their elemental spells, but they gained many more battle magic spells after being taught by the High Elves...

[Cael Darkhollow]

Interesting idea about the Elven kingdom being in Laurelorn, I.e. inside the Empire. That’s a possibility for sure. We also don’t know when exactly Heroquest takes place in the history of the Old World. It’s not inconceivable that Laurelorn had a Queen at some point, and her name was Terrellia.

I’m with Daedalus in that I also like the comment that the HQ elf models are compatible with wood Elf regiments of the same period. Not ever having the privilege of owning those HQ figures, I went the other way and used Warhammer plastic wood elves as proxies for the Elf quest pack, and they look great.

To be honest, it doesn't even need to be in the Laurelorn forest. There's wood elf clans hidden throughout the forests of the Empire, and it quite possible that Queen is a title for a Wood Elf clan leader.

Plus, there's always the Border Princes - that's full of self-styled "kings" and "queens", even if their domain consists of three people and a goat...a Wood Elf clan with a "Queen" would certainly be right at home there, but like everything else in that wilderness, unlikely to last very long, especially if a bunch of Mentor's "murder hobos" do some Heroing on them...

I don’t think the Elf pack is set in the Border Princes. The intro story and the quest notes make it clear that we are talking about a proper established kingdom with a long, noble history. Athel Loren, or Laurelorn, would be a much better fit.

Long and noble by who's reckoning, exactly? Plus, given how secretive the Wood Elves are, especially in and around the Empire, it's entirely possible that a long an established Elven kingdom with a long and noble history exists, above the petty politics of man (often literally, WFRP has most Wood Elves living in tree top settlements above the eyes of most creatures in the dark forests throughout the Empire and beyond).

My point is that, depending upon interpretation, the Elf pack can be set almost anywhere where there's a possible Elven population. Most of the cities in the Empire and elsewhere in the Old World have been built on the ruins of Elven settlements that fell during the War of the Beard and through other calamities, with their inhabitant dispersed. As a long-live race, any group of dispossessed Elves might consider themselves a kingdom with a long and noble history, regardless of the state of the actual land they are residing in.

Sure it can be set anywhere there are elves (not necessarily wood elves even, although the figures are in wood elf style so naturally we make that assumption) because the text of the quest book never clearly states where the elf kingdom is. But it is much more satisfying to tie in to known populations of WH elves in the texts rather than saying basically "it could be anywhere there are elves, who are we to decide what they call a kingdom?"

Athel Loren as the best known main wood elf WH population was long assumed by some HQ players to be the locale and obviously clearly differs in the King and Queens names causing some to view HQ elf quest as an alternate timeline or world diverging from the Old World setting.
but I don't think even that idea conflicts necessarily as Orion and Ariel could be the high king and queen of the elves ruling several smaller kingdoms each with their own local rulers. No mention of that possibility exists however in wood elf lore text, instead the smaller groups inside Athel Loren are called clans, so Athel Loren seems unlikely as the HQ locale because we know the queens name of the "elf kingdom" is Terrellia.

In the wood elf text we read half a page about a lost kindred:
"their entire kindred set out on a long trek over the Grey Mountains and beyond into the uttermost east. Here they wandered through a forested wilderness barely inhabited by tribes of men, yet already infested with orcs. Though warhawk riders and scouts tried to follow to keep contact, they finally lost track of them as winter snows covered the forests. The kindred of the Wythel trees were never seen again.
Since that time rumors of an enclave of wood elves hidden deep in the forests east of the Grey Mountains have reached Athel Loren. Attempts have been made to contact them and a few scouts claim to have met fellow scouts of the Lost Kindred. There seems to be no reason to doubt their word, but nevertheless almost everything about the Lost Kindred remains a mystery in Athel Loren though their survival seems certain." page 13, Wood Elves army book 4th edition.
Sounds like the elves of Laurelorn forest in the early Empire region pre-Sigmar to me, based on location to the east over the Grey Mountains but could possibly be yet another group of elves entirely.

In Warhammer Fantasy Role Play we read about the wood elves:
"The elves had time to recover and establish themselves in several small colonies around the central Old World. The most important were the kingdoms of the Laurelorn and Loren Forests, which together comprise more than 80% of the Elf population in the Old World.
These two kingdoms became the focus for elvish survival, with all the other clans and tribes looking to them for leadership."
Well then, in Warhammer, we have two main wood elf kingdoms and it is stated all other clans and tribes bow to their rulers. Athel Loren's rulers are named, so by default the other kingdom of the two whose rulers are not named is by far the best WH candidate for Terrellia's Elf Kingdom in the HQ elf quest book.

In Warhammer Fantasy Role Play we read about the wood elves of Laurelorn ensconced in the province of Nordland :
"The Elves of Laurelorn are isolationist, wanting to be left alone in the beautiful woods they have come to call home. Unlike men, who seek to tame the lands in which they live, the elves of Laurelorn regard the forest and its land as a living thing, something over which they feel protective. They do, however, recognize that mankind provides the bulwark of the defence of their lands against Greenskins and Chaos, so they try to not antagonize the surrounding realms of the Empire, unless they try to establish dominion over Laurelorn itself.
Elf adventurers in the Empire are almost always from Laurelorn."
page 9, Sigmars Heirs WHFRP
"Beyond the Demst [river] is the core of Laurelorn, a place Nordlanders call "the witches Wood" out of their superstitious fear of the Elf Queen. imperials are forbidden to cross into it on pain of death: even the Elector Counts of Nordland are under this ban. What lies within the Witch's Wood is unknown: some have speculated that the elves have no capital, living a nomadic life under the trees. Old books, on the other hand, mention a nameless city of glass deep in its heart, a place that glows with its own light. Whatever the truth, it is certain that neither creatures of Chaos nor Greenskins last long once they enter the Laurelorn, for the elves defend their home ferociously against all comers." page 64 ,Sigmars Heirs WHFRP
Now we know that Laurelorn is ruled by a Queen, and I think we can reasonably assume her name is Terrellia.
A perfect set up for the quest book narrative.

Mentor sends the HQ elf hero because the queen herself secretly informed him of the kidnapping and ransom.
Only the HQs elf hero's inclusion permitted entry into the forbidden kingdom (likely his/her homeland based on the most elf adventurers in the Empire are from Laurelorn bit)
edit: the back of the quest box confirms the elf homeland: "your homeland is in turmoil."
but he/she still had to prove himself/herself in solo quests before his/her companions could join him/her to rescue the Elf Princess Millandriell.

You guys can do whatever you want;
but if you want to put The Mage of The Mirror HQ quests in the best possible Warhammer location based on text evidence, I think you would be forced to agree it is the elf Kingdom of Laurelorn, inside the Empire and east of the Grey Mountains.

[Davane]

Wood Elves are secretive, yes, but they actually require woods to be secretive in The Border Princes are not known for having large forests .
I suppose you could put the Elven Kingdom in the Border Princes or some other oddball place, but why bother, when you already have a far better alternative already set up for you? I’m going from memory here but the Elf quest pack seems to set up the adventure as being in the Elven Kingdom, as if it’s the main one in the Old World. Just seems a bit strange to try and force it into a much smaller enclave that nobody has ever heard of. But it’s your game, set it wherever you like. No biggy. Heroquest is usually sufficiently vague as to endanger these kind of discussions where no one can be shown to be definitely right either way.

Not trying to force anything on anyone - if you want to place it in the Laurelorn forest, go ahead.

What I AM trying to say is that WFRP has noted that there's plenty of elven enclaves throughout the Empire, and beyond, that exist beyond the sight of human eyes. If you have an issue because of arguments that Athel Loren or the Laurelorn have never had a Queen, there are alternatives that might be suitable.

As for the Border Princes NOT having forests, this is a fallacy. Sure, it might not have notably LARGE forests like the Laurelorn, but elves don't NEED significantly large forests to actually hide in. Any sort of wilderness with a certain degree of foliage will do. The thing about the Border Princes is that it's quite an undefined wilderness landscape, with varied terrain, but it's not exactly a wasteland, like what we see outside Marienburg either.

The Map of Yeltzin Valley (Page 10 of Fire in the Mountains) from the Doomstones campaign shows an example of one of the valleys in the Border Princes, and that is shown to be heavily forested. Likewise, The Map of the Border Princes (Page 6 of Renegade Crowns) shows that the top parts of the Border Princes are often heavily forested, with three named forests provided (although the scan quality is such I can only make out the name of one, which I think is the Forest of Gloom.

Thus, it cannot be entirely discounted that just because the Old World map doesn't show the Border Princes as being predominantly forested, there aren't forests there able to house an Elven kingdom. These forests might not rival the size of the Laurelorn or even the Reikwald or Drakwald, but they are certainly big enough to house some sort of elven colony, kingdom, or nation that would fit for the EQP, if you didn't think that the Laurelorn or any other forest is suitable because of it's extensively documented history.

[Davane]

Interesting idea about the Elven kingdom being in Laurelorn, I.e. inside the Empire. That’s a possibility for sure. We also don’t know when exactly Heroquest takes place in the history of the Old World. It’s not inconceivable that Laurelorn had a Queen at some point, and her name was Terrellia.

I’m with Daedalus in that I also like the comment that the HQ elf models are compatible with wood Elf regiments of the same period. Not ever having the privilege of owning those HQ figures, I went the other way and used Warhammer plastic wood elves as proxies for the Elf quest pack, and they look great.

To be honest, it doesn't even need to be in the Laurelorn forest. There's wood elf clans hidden throughout the forests of the Empire, and it quite possible that Queen is a title for a Wood Elf clan leader.

Plus, there's always the Border Princes - that's full of self-styled "kings" and "queens", even if their domain consists of three people and a goat...a Wood Elf clan with a "Queen" would certainly be right at home there, but like everything else in that wilderness, unlikely to last very long, especially if a bunch of Mentor's "murder hobos" do some Heroing on them...

I don’t think the Elf pack is set in the Border Princes. The intro story and the quest notes make it clear that we are talking about a proper established kingdom with a long, noble history. Athel Loren, or Laurelorn, would be a much better fit.

Long and noble by who's reckoning, exactly? Plus, given how secretive the Wood Elves are, especially in and around the Empire, it's entirely possible that a long an established Elven kingdom with a long and noble history exists, above the petty politics of man (often literally, WFRP has most Wood Elves living in tree top settlements above the eyes of most creatures in the dark forests throughout the Empire and beyond).

My point is that, depending upon interpretation, the Elf pack can be set almost anywhere where there's a possible Elven population. Most of the cities in the Empire and elsewhere in the Old World have been built on the ruins of Elven settlements that fell during the War of the Beard and through other calamities, with their inhabitant dispersed. As a long-live race, any group of dispossessed Elves might consider themselves a kingdom with a long and noble history, regardless of the state of the actual land they are residing in.

Sure it can be set anywhere there are elves (not necessarily wood elves even, although the figures are in wood elf style so naturally we make that assumption) because the text of the quest book never clearly states where the elf kingdom is. But it is much more satisfying to tie in to known populations of WH elves in the texts rather than saying basically "it could be anywhere there are elves, who are we to decide what they call a kingdom?"

Athel Loren as the best known main wood elf WH population was long assumed by some HQ players to be the locale and obviously clearly differs in the King and Queens names causing some to view HQ elf quest as an alternate timeline or world diverging from the Old World setting.
but I don't think even that idea conflicts necessarily as Orion and Ariel could be the high king and queen of the elves ruling several smaller kingdoms each with their own local rulers. No mention of that possibility exists however in wood elf lore text, instead the smaller groups inside Athel Loren are called clans, so Athel Loren seems unlikely as the HQ locale because we know the queens name of the "elf kingdom" is Terrellia.

In the wood elf text we read half a page about a lost kindred:
"their entire kindred set out on a long trek over the Grey Mountains and beyond into the uttermost east. Here they wandered through a forested wilderness barely inhabited by tribes of men, yet already infested with orcs. Though warhawk riders and scouts tried to follow to keep contact, they finally lost track of them as winter snows covered the forests. The kindred of the Wythel trees were never seen again.
Since that time rumors of an enclave of wood elves hidden deep in the forests east of the Grey Mountains have reached Athel Loren. Attempts have been made to contact them and a few scouts claim to have met fellow scouts of the Lost Kindred. There seems to be no reason to doubt their word, but nevertheless almost everything about the Lost Kindred remains a mystery in Athel Loren though their survival seems certain." page 13, Wood Elves army book 4th edition.
Sounds like the elves of Laurelorn forest in the early Empire region pre-Sigmar to me, based on location to the east over the Grey Mountains but could possibly be yet another group of elves entirely.

In Warhammer Fantasy Role Play we read about the wood elves:
"The elves had time to recover and establish themselves in several small colonies around the central Old World. The most important were the kingdoms of the Laurelorn and Loren Forests, which together comprise more than 80% of the Elf population in the Old World.
These two kingdoms became the focus for elvish survival, with all the other clans and tribes looking to them for leadership."
Well then, in Warhammer, we have two main wood elf kingdoms and it is stated all other clans and tribes bow to their rulers. Athel Loren's rulers are named, so by default the other kingdom of the two whose rulers are not named is by far the best WH candidate for Terrellia's Elf Kingdom in the HQ elf quest book.

In Warhammer Fantasy Role Play we read about the wood elves of Laurelorn ensconced in the province of Nordland :
"The Elves of Laurelorn are isolationist, wanting to be left alone in the beautiful woods they have come to call home. Unlike men, who seek to tame the lands in which they live, the elves of Laurelorn regard the forest and its land as a living thing, something over which they feel protective. They do, however, recognize that mankind provides the bulwark of the defence of their lands against Greenskins and Chaos, so they try to not antagonize the surrounding realms of the Empire, unless they try to establish dominion over Laurelorn itself.
Elf adventurers in the Empire are almost always from Laurelorn."
page 9, Sigmars Heirs WHFRP
"Beyond the Demst [river] is the core of Laurelorn, a place Nordlanders call "the witches Wood" out of their superstitious fear of the Elf Queen. imperials are forbidden to cross into it on pain of death: even the Elector Counts of Nordland are under this ban. What lies within the Witch's Wood is unknown: some have speculated that the elves have no capital, living a nomadic life under the trees. Old books, on the other hand, mention a nameless city of glass deep in its heart, a place that glows with its own light. Whatever the truth, it is certain that neither creatures of Chaos nor Greenskins last long once they enter the Laurelorn, for the elves defend their home ferociously against all comers." page 64 ,Sigmars Heirs WHFRP
Now we know that Laurelorn is ruled by a Queen, and I think we can reasonably assume her name is Terrellia.
A perfect set up for the quest book narrative.

Mentor sends the HQ elf hero because the queen herself secretly informed him of the kidnapping and ransom.
Only the HQs elf hero's inclusion permitted entry into the forbidden kingdom (likely his/her homeland based on the most elf adventurers in the Empire are from Laurelorn bit) but he/she still had to prove himself/herself in solo quests before his/her companions could join him/her to rescue the Elf Princess Millandriell.

You guys can do whatever you want;
but if you want to put The Mage of The Mirror HQ quests in the best possible Warhammer location based on text evidence, I think you would be forced to agree it is the elf Kingdom of Laurelorn, inside the Empire and east of the Grey Mountains.

By citing Sigmar's Heirs as reference, you must also accept Renegade Crowns as a viable reference, since they are both part of the same edition of WFRP. As much as I admire the deductive work regarding the Laurelorn forest, and it does make sense quite well, I would continue to advocate that the Border Princes are also viable as an alternative candidate for the Elf Kingdom, and may be more suitable for those who don't want the EQP to take place within the Empire itself.

The Border Princes are largely undocumented, giving them plenty of scope to place whatever you want there, and it is within travelling distance of the heart Empire. In fact, it's positioning in the Vaults means that ANY arguments about Wood Elves crossing from Athel Loren are equally valid, seeing as they could cross the Vaults as easily as the Grey Mountains. Essentially, instead of travelling North, they travelled West.

Besides the advantage of putting the EQP in same region with Black Fire Pass and Karak Varn, the lack of documentation means we know next to nothing about the inhabitants there. So, not only do we not know the names of the rulers, we don't even know, for sure that there was or wasn't any elves there.

Finally, placing the EQP in the Border Princes means it's beyond the control of the Empire's reach. Elves there wouldn't necessarily have any compunctions against angering the locals, knowing they are far enough away from the Empire's reprisals. This might also justify why the elves can be considered "monsters" in this context, because they are not actually Empire Elves.

So, whatever argument you provide for justifying the Laurelorn, most of them are justifiable as an Elven kingdom in the Border Princes, if not more so.

Ultimately, I think it's nice to have choices and back ups. That's part of the appeal of the Border Princes - if something doesn't fit in the Empire, you still have a good area which is largely undocumented and prone to political instability and wild frontier justice.

[Kurgan]

If we're trying to pin down a year for when this all went down, what about that ROTWL EU illustration? Because the map on the back of the quest book is being treated as hard canon, so it should mean something then right? It says (and I never paid much attention to it until recently, to be honest) at the bottom there "Transcribed by Jeremiah of Ruhn* [?] 2513 "

(*Or could be Nuhn, maybe my old eyes be failin' me at last...?)

I guess if you wanted to set that quest pack in a different time, you could say it's not the same calendar, or maybe it was transcribed long after the events for posterity (ie: this isn't a copy of the map used by the Heroes at the time they embarked on their campaign against the Witch Lord or right after their returned in triumph or whatever)... or "that Jeremiah, always getting dates wrong!" but does this affect anything you were thinking?

Where do the WOM (Detection/Protection/Darkness) spells fit into the WHF magic colleges that stuff can be used by the Wizard or the Elf (not just the Elf like the new EQP spells)? Then there's the ice magic in BQP most of which the Heroes can use (via spell scrolls; in my system I just decided Ice magic is water magic and didn't worry about it). Or the mentalist type abilities of ATOH (used by Chaos alone). Then again many (but not all) of the Elf abilities are mentalist type or have to do with time. The ways of magic are strange..!

[Cael Darkhollow]

yes, yes as I said you could plunk down the HQ "elf Kingdom" anywhere that conceivably could contain it certainly including the border kingdoms, but you'd be going without any WH text support for such a claim. Admittedly not much is written about Laurelorn either, but what is written is a great match for the HQ quest narrative. Why stretch hard to formulate something from scratch when there is a perfect recipe already laid out? Only two wood elf kingdoms are discussed in WH. One matches.

The border Princes simply doesn't seem like a homeland for the elf hero to me, especially not a elf kingdom. But anything is possible, it wasn't written so we cannot prove anything. you want to use it fine, but I don't see the allure. the Border Kingdoms threat to the Empire is from mainly from greenskins or undead in the south. Mentor is talking about a threat to the elf kingdom that would endanger the Empire from Chaos. I prefer probable over just possible.

There are more tantalizing clues:
per back of the elf quest pack:
"Greetings bravest of all elves! The Queen of the Elven Kingdom anxiously awaits your return. Your homeland is in turmoil as the Queen's evil sister Sinestra the Archmage, has joined forces with Zargon. Sinestra has kidnapped the Queens daughter Millandriell and hidden her in a dark and mysterious mirror maze.
Fearless Elf, you have been chosen to rescue the fair princess. To determine your worthiness, you alone must complete three dangerous quests. If you survive, you and your fellow heroes will then venture into the forbidden Realm of Reflection-where all is not as it seems. There you must destroy Sinestra and rescue the princess from the dark forces of Chaos."

Sounds a whole lot like the nordlander peasant legends quoted from WHFRP earlier:
"What lies within the Witch's Wood is unknown: some have speculated that the elves have no capital, living a nomadic life under the trees. Old books, on the other hand, mention a nameless city of glass deep in its heart, a place that glows with its own light. Whatever the truth, it is certain that neither creatures of Chaos nor Greenskins last long once they enter the Laurelorn, for the elves defend their home ferociously against all comers." page 64 ,Sigmars Heirs WHFRP

City of glass, a place that glows with its own light, sounds like a perfect match for the forbidden Realm of Reflection. The old myths could be true. Sinestra's lair of glass could lie within the kingdom (queendom?) of Laurelorn itself, which lies inside the Empire Provence of Nordland, or adjacent in the marshes to the east (Sinestras stronghold did mention marshes) and the Sea of Claws to the North. Much closer to the Chaos threat of the North, especially if you subscribe to the HQ Emperor is Magnus the Pious and the timeframe of HQ is during his reign immediately after the great war with residual Chaos forces roaming the Empire.
A position in the North next to the sea of claws also makes sense for the Barbarian Quest Pack homefaring whether you play that first or after the Elf Quest Pack by most accounts they go back to back.

By all means, put it whereever fits best to you. backup options are nice as you said Davane, I will keep yours in mind.

[Cael Darkhollow]

If we're trying to pin down a year for when this all went down, what about that ROTWL EU illustration? Because the map on the back of the quest book is being treated as hard canon, so it should mean something then right? It says (and I never paid much attention to it until recently, to be honest) at the bottom there "Transcribed by Jeremiah of Ruhn* [?] 2513 "

(*Or could be Nuhn, maybe my old eyes be failin' me at last...?)

I guess if you wanted to set that quest pack in a different time, you could say it's not the same calendar, or maybe it was transcribed long after the events for posterity (ie: this isn't a copy of the map used by the Heroes at the time they embarked on their campaign against the Witch Lord or right after their returned in triumph or whatever)... or "that Jeremiah, always getting dates wrong!" but does this affect anything you were thinking?

interesting catch Kurgan.
I can assure you it is Nuln, (I double checked my euro RotWL questbook map in hand to be sure) the very city Emperor Magnus established as his capital until Prince Wilhelm of Altdorf moved it to that city in 2429.
Nuln later became famous for the Imperial Gunnery school the source of black powder weapons and cannons.

What to make of that date? 2513...That would make it the modern day during the Reign of Karl Franz in the Warhammer timeline for 4th edition published beginning in 1992, long after the Witchlord pack was originally published in 1989. However 2512 is the present day of 3rd edition published in 1987. (page 200 WHFB 1987) The 2513 date only 1 year later after 3rd edition Warhammer present day. Looks like Emperor Karl Franz himself commissioned that map.

Another clue is the "to the New World" arrow pointing out to sea, when the Old Worlders discovered the new world has a date we can source with a little digging. Old Worlder explores discovered Lustria in the year IC 2402 and the New Coast in 2421. Meaning that map could have only been put on parchment after those explorers got back in the early 2400s.

That Jerimiah of Nuln is really Jes Goodwin in the real world, his (her?) name is credited on the actual booklet after New World Map by... new world map huh? guess the old one was outdated and needed updating, perhaps 200 years later?

So while most of HeroQuest was being published the current 3rd edition WH setting date was IC 2512 until WH 4th edition released in 1992 and upped present day by 3 years to IC 2515. Only the last 3 HQ game products date from 1992.

I believe the present day of WH wasn't intended to be the timeframe of HQ or Battlemasters. in the real world maps were being designed by GW for Warhammer so they would be set to "modern day" not archaic maps of yesteryear before major continents had been discovered by Old Worlders. I don't see the map date as effecting my 2304-2335 HQ time period hypothesis.