Other Uses for Black Shield??

[timberwolf73]

I had been thinking of a slight modification where combat would be a bit more balanced by having monsters and heroes alike all defend using white shields. But then what other use could the black shield be used for?

I had thought perhaps if more black shields than skulls were rolled on an attack that it would be a critical miss and no damage taken to the monster or hero (so defense dice would not have to be rolled that turn)

Or

Had seen that there are a number of Event/Evil Wizard cards floating around online....Could potentially use that black shield to determine if such a card would be drawn/played. If this scenario were used anyone have any suggestions of which of the various card types to use for this?

What do you all think? Which of the two scenarios are better suited to the game? Does anyone have any other suggestions...and also has anyone ever played a game where the white shields were used for the monsters as opposed to the black ones?

[cynthialee]

I use Mind and Body rolls with combat dice for 'difficult tasks' and to succeed the player must roll a Black Shield.

House rule I use, if you roll all black shields on any weapon with 2 or more dice I roll a D6 and if I get a 1-2 your weapon breaks.

Half ass dart traps that only trigger if a Black Shield is rolled.


Most of my games played at my table the monsters defend with White Shields. This is Champion Level at my table. Don't get to far from your group... For some (read most) boss fights I give the boss the ability to defend on ALL shields. (That makes a boss really tough.) For Epic/End Game level play all monsters Defend on all shields and attack with Skulls and Black Shields. Then for higher level play I have some of the player created dice with 2 Skulls, Shields Black Shields. I like to give Bosses improved Attack Dice and Defend dice. The nice thing about those dice you can keep it monsters defend on Black Shields and just pick the right dice.

[mitchiemasha]

While i always strongly oppose this as an idea... Here are some suggestions. DAMAGE!

As for Cynthialees version, i don't like to add more rolls, it's already dicey enough. A lot of my mods are added to the existing rolls you make in the original game, like 'Hazard' and 'Bonus Actions'. (edit: Ok Hazarad has an extra 1Cd6 roll)

"DAMAGE: Discard an equipped weapon when rolling black shields equal or more than it's strength"

Using a staff with 2 Cd6, roll 2+ Black and you've snapped it. Drink a potion or have a spell cast on you increasing your attack strength to 4Cd6, it's more likely to get damaged, which fits perfectly. As for +1 defensive weapons, as the base stat is 2, these are damaged on 3+. If you rolled 3 Black in defense discard your helmet, shield or even your broadsword as it's your attacking weapon that took the defensive blow. Again increasing your defense strength through magic doesn't increase the strength of the weapon, so more likely to get damaged. This now opens up the possibility for new spells, enchantments etc.

I used to use the simpler version of rolling all black shields in combat. But, play testing showed this mod as broken. Triple blacks are rare and quadruple blacks are a never. Spells or potions would never result in a break and i like to see those buffed attacks as very risky for the weapon.

Another use to rolling a black could result in a bonus 'MIGHTY BLOW', we link this to rolling all skulls in attack or all shields in defence. Used on special weapons and artifacts etc, to unlock the effect. With blunt weapons it has 'Push Back' with sharp weapons it has 'Follow through'.

"FT: All hits unblocked and not used on wounds follow through and hit the next enemy within reach."

Great for the pike, spiking 2 monsters, straight through the 1st on to the next, 1 behind the other, in 1 attack.

[mitchiemasha]

And the reasons i oppose the idea are...

1. It breaks original theme. I'd be tempted to play similar but with the special dice, only for characters, bosses etc.
2. I like monsters to die quite a lot. HeroQuest is supposed to be a blood bath, Slash and Dash!
3. Splitting up should sometimes be an option, a risky option but still doable. All defend on white would make this impossible, death to all who try it and never be tried again. Quests with essential items and who goes where can result in some interesting player interactions, discussions, in game threats, arguments or cowardly actions. Especially quests with riddles, puzzles and tasks that need to be achieved, all removed by the mod of topic.
4. I prefer to find other ways to add spice to the game, like monster class special abilities, MAM, Waaagh, Tail Bash, Reach, Infected, Paralysis. 'The curse on this tomb is strong and the undead are easily reanimated' (undead must be finished off'). 'Ancient magic enchants the Chaos Warriors armour through it's orb, destroy the source of this magic to remove the effect' (a black shield rolled against them in attack negates a skull) same can be used on Skaven shields. The Evil Wizard Deck or Chaos Tokens, which counters time wasting, players cheating the original mechanics etc, featuring Traps, Characters, Fate, more Wandering Monsters and the dreaded Ambush. Hazard, rolling double 1's roll 1Cd6 skull lose 1BP, which combats players rerolling for high movement, time wasting, now each turn is a threat, its in and out. Nothing better than seeing that badly beaten Hero crying with each roll, attempting to exit the dungeon.
5. A total Hero wipe should be rare, to continue the story on mostly the group should survive, only picking up a new companion every now and then.
6. Weapons damage alone is enough to put Heroes in sticky situations later in the game. Also making treasure more important.
7. Simply making monsters defend on whites strengthens the reasons for players to abuse the original mechanics. All the issues we've seen brought up over the years made worse. The ideas above don't just add that extra spice, they work towards reducing and/or punishing Heroes who choose todo those things.

I see 'all monsters defend on white' almost as bad as removing the roll to move. It's one of the first things people tend to think of but it's very limited in imagination and sense of creativity. Just my opinion of course!!!

[knightkrawler]

I see 'all monsters defend on white' almost as bad as removing the roll to move. It's one of the first things people tend to think of but it's very limited in imagination and sense of creativity. Just my opinion of course!!!

I'll sign that.

[Gold Bearer]

I had been thinking of a slight modification where combat would be a bit more balanced by having monsters and heroes alike all defend using white shields. But then what other use could the black shield be used for?

Dwarf counts black shields as white shields in defence and barbarian counts black shields as skulls when attacking hand to hand, either through a standard rule (buffing the elf's movement to the highest two of three dice and giving the wizard something new like extra spells) or through artifacts or a simple progression system.

[timberwolf73]

Well, wasn't looking to have monsters defend with hero shields in order to have a 'hero wipe'. In any DMV led rpg & I've played several I've always seen the DMV as a facilitator more than anything else. I try to have a balance, there should be a sense of adventure & danger. That the character's COULD die , but not necessarily that they will. As it stands I've bent or tweaked the rules slightly a bit as it is while playing with my 7 yr old nieces & nephew. When they've been beat too bad there was an extra heal potion in the room. Too easy, an extra monster or two... but if the monsters repeatedly go down with just a hit or two it becomes too boring.

Little changes can add some spice to the game. For example, once one of the kids, once opened a door to a room saw it was full of goblins & orcs & slammed the door shut. On Zargon's turn I had an orc open it back up & go through & chase after the heros. The kids loved it!! Only had one orc do that, granted against the rules as it states monsters can't open doors, but was fitting in that situation & was logical. The monsters would have seen the door open heard the heros yell close it & pursue...but I didn't take the whole room after them!

Also vaguely recall having Kamikaze Goblins when used to run heroquest for an after school group...been quite awhile... but think they worked something along the lines of heros turning down a corridor where a line goblin waited which would immediately run towards the first hero & set off an explosion doing 1 body point damage to both the goblin & the hero...no defense roll. Again though there would not be very many of them in a quest...1 or maybe 2...

[Gold Bearer]

When they've been beat too bad there was an extra heal potion in the room. Too easy, an extra monster or two...

So what happens in the fights really makes no difference at all. If they're struggling, let them struggle. If they're doing well, let them do well. That's where the fun is and it's the whole point of playing.

[cynthialee]

don't hold back now...let them know how you really think about my ideas...

[clmckay]

Alrighty then....

I personally don't use the option of having monsters defend on white shields very much. I limit it to bosses on occasion or occasionally a new monster altogether. There's precedent, I think the Doomguard in Black Company defend that way and maybe an isolated monster here or there throughout the canon quests.

I agree that doing it carte blanche as a replacement for the normal defense rolls is a poor way to handle power creep.

I don't like it as a critical hit. I don't use such things. Rolling three Skulls is a "critical hit". Let the odds of actually rolling multiple skull be your critical hit, not some one-off Black Shield. Altering existing rules that way is unnecessary.

I think using it as described for half ass dart traps is brilliant. I will be taking that.

I do have weapons break if all Black Shields are rolled in attack or defense. It becomes rarer the stronger the weapon, however if it has higher attack, I imagine higher quality so less chance to break.

I am a very large fan of colored dice. It's a great way to adjust the difficulty of new monsters without having to remember: "Oh yeah, count white shields here." It also can modify weapon quality when considering the Black Shield rules above. I know I'm in the minority, but damn I think those dice have added as much granularity and spice to my games as a series of new quest packs.

I think that handing a spare potion here or there is a great way to keep an age appropriate person engaged. You don't cater to making them win but you don't let them just fail. I'd never do that for adult players, but without a doubt for kids, whose cognition is not the same as an adult. The goal fun. If it enhances the fun for the kids or even for me as the Zargon/dad, then screw it, I'm gonna throw that extra potion here or there to make the fun last longer.