Ye Olde Inn

by **Kurgan** » Wednesday June 1st, 2022 12:27pm

The thing is we have no HeroQuest lore describing the relations between "humans" and "elves" in this world other than what appears in the pack. So if we imagine that the Elves are some kind of racial seperatists who mistrust humans to me is a big leap. We're only talking about Queen Terrellia, who is mistrustful not because all Elves hate humans (then what about all the Elf heroes who have helped Mentor over the centuries and fought alongside barbarians and wizards who are portrayed as mortal men)... but because she's involved in a civil war with her sister (also an elf) who embraced chaos.

The idea that the "races" of this world are separated and mistrustful of each other I think comes from impressions from other media primarily. The Empire, as far as we know, is either its own power allied with other kingdoms that work together in an alliance or (in my own headcanon) simply the name for all of these realms that are holding firm against Zargon's forces from the outside (with the possible exception of the Ogres who are more independent though Zargon for a time gained influence over them).

Even so, Elf mercenaries would work just fine (2x swordsmen and 2x archers included in the pack) for those who feel there's some problem with having human mercenaries in the Elf world (again I don't see why this is a problem, the Heroes are not all Elves and they traveled there looking for treasure, who says nobody else would even if they were just deserters from Zargon's forces that still need to put food on the table?). The stealth idea is good. The heroes are like special forces rather than sending a huge army to invade in these various quests (Battlemasters style!). But that doesn't always have to be stealth-wise. Many of these locations are too hard for a huge army to infiltrate but you could always say that the army is "needed elsewhere" and so they send their best. But if they can send mercs to fight the frozen horror or the wizards of morcar, why not here? In the end, people who own both packs COULD spend their gold to bring mercs into this battle, but generally it would still be a small group (I guess unless you bought many sets and then you could have a lot, even though gold is still finite).

Good conversation...

Well the only thing we have to go by in regards to human/Elven relations comes at the closing "epilogue" of the Hero Quest Game System:
"The Emperor rode with his army towards Black Fire Pass, that perilous mountain route linking the Empire and the Boarderlands. No such army has ever been raised in living memory. They drew the battle lines up on the grassy plains at the foot of the mountain road and waited. 'Ere nightfall the sky darkened and a great wind arose. Spine-chilling shrieks and howls echoed from the mountain tops, terrifying the horses and filling man and elf alike with fear."
A few things need to be pointed out from the underlined passages: The very last one confirms that there were elves among the army. We can assume, due to the howling, perhaps Giant Wolves were even present among Zargon's forces. It doesn't say anything about dwarves being filled with fear, so either they weren't present or too stubborn to be afraid.
"No such army has ever been raised in living memory." This could mean such an army of Elves and Men joined together or just on sheer size alone. But assuming Mentor is talking, who is "an ancient sage", we must pose the question of "living memory." How old is Mentor? He's been around since the first time Zargon was defeated by Rogar and his clan. Bare in mind Rogar was joined by elves (Ladril), dwarves (During) and wizards (Telor), such is mimicked by our present heroes. (History repeats itself). So the army must be of an unmatched size.
It is confirmed in the instruction booklet that there was at least 1 elf living in the Empire. As the brief introduction reads "Bonded by their loyalty to the Empire, the brave heroes unite." So we can surmise that there are indeed Elves living in the Empire. Dwarves too, but there doesn't appear to be any background on a Dwarven kingdom other then what we read from Keller's Keep. Karak Varn has been overrun, so we can't even be sure if there's a Dwarven Kingdom anymore. Our Dwarven hero, living in the Empire, could be refugee for all we know.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Elves are mistrustful of the humans, I just think they made a point of great distinction to separate the Elven Kingdom from the Empire. Perhaps I'm putting too much faith into the Cartography forum, which takes much of it's geography from the Warhammer Universe, but it's possible that this is errored too, just as the Ogre Horde's lair is nowhere near the Empire in Warhammer.
Surely that we can speculate that Queen Terrellia and the Emperor are married, as the spouse of each are never brought up, but they do have children in Magnus and Millandrial. As much as we could ponder on this, I do not think it likely. The leadership of the Elven Kingdom goes through bloodlines as Sinestra is next in line one Terrellia and Millandrial abdicate. But clearly there is a difference between the two realms: additional monsters such as Ogre's, Giant Wolves and Elven Warriors/Archers might just be geographically based as they do not appear in the game system, Keller's Keep or Return of the Witch Lord. Of course, the Elven Warriors/Archers must be involved due to Elven affairs. The Ogre's may be of remnance of Zargon's army from the Ogre Horde. So the Giant wolves are the only ones in question, but then again they could've been part of the Battle of Black Fire Pass. However, we also have Elven artifacts not found in any other expansion, also new spells that are unique to a new (or old) Elven player.
Terrellia asks Mentor to find an Elven Hero, and depending which Elf you play the solo quests with, suggests 1 of 2 things:
1.) Play the solo quests as the established Elven Hero, who has already established himself as Champion of the Realm, Terrellia clearly forces these 3 trials on him out of spite, because he is "Loyal to the Empire" and not thee Elven Queen.
2.) Play as the new unestablished She-elf and earn the right for such a dangerous yet prestigious undertaking.
However the biggest difference comes under economics. The Emperor is only willing to pay 260 gold for his most powerful knight. However, over 800 gold coins could found in a single chest when playing Mage of the Mirror. Gold flows much more freely in the Elven Kingdom then in the Empire.

This leads us to the final argument on why mercenaries shouldn't be allowed in the quest pack. First off I'd like to say no one is wrong for doing it, and the entire premise of mercenaries is missing from the quest booklet itself. Mage of the Mirror and Frozen Horror were made by the same company, but each were under different leadership and at the same time. So Mage of the Mirror was not made by the same people who created Frozen Horror. But you can see similarities bled through from the first production meeting before they split off into different groups. "We're going to make expansions for each hero, so each quest pack should have artifacts and potions specifically taylored to each hero. You do the Elf pack and you do the Barbarian pack, we'll worry about the Wizard and Dwarf later (Later plans changed because Hasbro bought out Tonka and they consolidated with Parker Brothers in the same building.). The finer details were worked out independently and the expansions were raced to stores without proper play testing. So the group that created the Frozen Horror heard about the European expansion (Wizards of Morcar) and implemented the Mercenaries. The group working on the Elf Quest Pack may not have heard of them.
The argument I was making, though, is that Mercenaries are readily available to fight the Frozen Horror because of the massive threat this ancient beast poses. Stop him now before he gets too powerful. But when it comes to Sinestra, the situation is much too delicate with Millandrial's life hanging in the balance. If Sinestra finds out that the heroes are secretly working for Terrellia that little Elven girl is dead.
Mentor is more closely associated with the Empire, but he must be reknown for his age and Wisdom. Terrellia cannot be faulted if Mentor sends his special forces to bring rest to the civil war. This is why Terrellia does not reward the heroes in any type of payment until completely after Sinestra's defeat. The 3 solo quests she sends the elf on are not considered major threats. She rescued her handmaidens that were caught in the turmoil and retrieved a family hairloom, she made no advancements on taking down Sinestra, like raiding Glenis Fenn. The Elven Hero set to embark on these quests, one works for Mentor, the other is a complete no-name making a name for herself, like Oswald purportedly killing Kennedy.

Now, respectfully, I'm not gonna tell you how to run your board game. I'm just saying why I don't think mercenaries are required (it makes sense storyline wise to me) and that in my opinion, the game is more balanced with the inclusion of a 5th Hero, while reducing the body points of the Ogre's. I mean it would also make sense for Terrellia to want a loyalist of her own overseeing the mission and taking some credit for her own people in the rescue.

by **Kurgan** » Thursday June 2nd, 2022 3:19pm

At least some of the artifacts and potions can only be used by an elf, so whether an established champion or a greenhorn proving their worth, it makes some sense for that to be the hero leading the group even if this particular elf didn't grow up in that territory and so wouldn't have some familiarity with the terrain and customs, etc. that the other heroes would lack.

I would be surprised if those who worked on the EQP knew about the Ogres but not the mercenaries. Perhaps they wanted the two packs to stand out more from each other or perhaps it was just a question of limitations (only so many runners for miniatures in each box, space being at a premium). The remakes seem a little less concerned with space, including many extras that weren't part of the original sets.

It's not really spelled out but I would say that Against the Ogre Horde (not released in NA just as EQP wasn't released in EU territory) does mention Ogres being mercenaries as well so they could be survivors of that battle or just mercs for hire among Sinestra's forces. Or she could have magical persuasion over them much like Festral did.

In my headcanon I imagine they are alchemically enhanced super ogres (then again maybe only the strongest ogres survived and these are the ones!).

I wasn't bringing up mercs because of the story, more that the quests are so bloody difficult it would seem prudent to include them. Again, even if they don't include the extra figures, what would stop an owner of the Frozen Horror from allowing them? After all, he's already been encouraged to use the "Alchemist Shop" from other quest packs along with the one found in the BQP. He might be tempted to shop other things as well, including mercenaries. If we wanted to force them into the story it would be fairly easy to come up with an excuse. Champions attract the loyalty of men... they may also attract the loyalty of elves. These could be loyalists to Terellia or just loyal to the heroes, or they could be humans, fighting for gold & glory. They could be deserters from Zargon's side who realize the error of their ways (or never wanted to fight for chaos in the first place but were conscripted). They could be freed prisoners... or an additional force sent by the Emperor after you've proven your worthiness in the eyes of the Elven ruler.

If you're just worried about numbers, in the original BQP there were only 6 mercs hireable. WOM had up to 12 (they were weaker though). But they're including 12 in the box with Frozen Horror's remake. So if they do have them, 12 wouldn't seem out of the ordinary and I think if the heroes can afford them, they may need every last one of them to win! (or else they spend all that gold on potions instead). What is at stake for the EQP isn't just a personal favor from one ruler to another or honoring some ancient bonds of friendship but a fear that an entire elven kingdom could fall to chaos with a powerful mage like Sinestra leading it. Certainly the plot point of the Emperor being tied by blood to the Elven throne could up the stakes a bit and give a reason why he'd encourage more warriors to go there even while keeping it more "secretive."

EQP isn't quite as difficult as BQP, but still, I'm saying it would benefit from the option of hiring more muscle.

Terellia does reward the Elf with gold in quest 2 (elven chainmail in quest 1) and quest 3 has no specified reward... so you're right that the group isn't given a gold reward until the end of the quest pack, but still, it doesn't have to be that way (and yes, much gold can be found inside the chests during these quests). It makes sense because the point of these early quests is to allow the solo hero to quickly acquire their full equipment (whether by getting gold to buy it or just flat out finding it).

by **Kurgan** » Wednesday August 3rd, 2022 6:14pm

Encarmine just posted a major scoop on HeroQuestFansDiscord for the remake that is finally, for real official.

Time for a new mega thread on this?

by **HispaZargon** » Wednesday August 3rd, 2022 6:18pm

Wow... interesting. It seems they will include more number of elf miniatures than in the classic one... maybe 4 elves per model instead of 2?

I see in the picture they have reduced to 5 the Ogre Body Points, which is great... Phoenix would surely feel mostly happy then :-)

by **Kurgan** » Wednesday August 3rd, 2022 8:44pm

Thanks Elvyler for a great quick article on the new reveals... and GenCon doesn't even officially open till tomorrow!

https://elvyler.com/2022/08/the-mage-of-the-mirror-quest-pack-confirmed/

by **Kurgan** » Wednesday August 3rd, 2022 8:48pm

HispaZargon wrote:Wow... interesting. It seems they will include more number of elf miniatures than in the classic one... maybe 4 elves per model instead of 2?

I see in the picture they have reduced to 5 the Ogre Body Points, which is great... Phoenix would surely feel happy then

The extra elves (in blue) are monsters. Spoilers, but in Mage of the Mirror you are dealing with the Elven kingdom and a civil war within it, so some of them are fighting against you with the would-be usurper, Sinestra.

As the female elf was already made the default one in the remake Game System, (as I had hoped) the new male Elf will be the star of this new pack, but of course you can always use the one you wish when you own both!

I may end up painting my female elf blue out of nostalgia for this pack I never owned back in the day but might have, if it hadn't disappeared from stores and warehouses so quickly. |_P

Edit: A good point, I looked more closely at the picture and you're right... of the plastic miniatures are shown and there are double the number of elves... two male and two female of each type (Swordsman and Archer). Could the extras be intended to be used as hire-able mercenaries?

by **Kurgan** » Wednesday August 3rd, 2022 8:53pm

According to the draft notes, the climax of Quest 2 was originally much more dark. SPOILERS... you find small bones inside a chest wearing jewels. You have to carry the chest back to the stairs with the movement penalty similar to Prince Magnus' gold. In the 1992 version that was released, the attendants are apparently alive but no real instructions are given on this anti-climactic return to the stairs. Now we know!

Thanks lucapaschi for sharing that info...