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How to chose Elf Spells

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Elf Quest Pack: The Mage of the Mirror.

Can the Elf select the spells or no?

Yes, take three spell you like the most;
9
82%
No, draw three random cards;
1
9%
I don't know;
1
9%
 
Total votes : 11

Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby Davane » Sunday April 18th, 2021 7:38am

iKarith wrote:
lestodante wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Or how about a totally wildcard option... what if he gets ALL the cards but can only USE up to three each quest?

Too forgiving?


Cool solution, a wider range of spells but only three are usable. Anyway , the Wizard will look even moore poor (unless you upgrade him too)!!


Playing him today, … the wizard really was nerfed in US rules. Where everything is made of toilet paper in the EU release, the wizard's got some great spells that are actually useful. Get more than a couple of quests into the US questbook though and the wizard's got one solid attack against one tough opponent and from then on he's basically tissue paper. If I actually build some house rules of my own … I'm throwing the wizard a bone, he needs one.

Yeah, we've got skill cards for barbarian and dwarf, we've got upgrades for the elf (who can use weapons and armor anyway at least), Morcar gets upgrades that grant him a threat mechanic to keep players from dallying (we discovered this is a problem too—the threat mechanic essentially makes walking into traps and and rolling for lost body points "safer" than waiting around to search for them. Two obvious solutions present themselves, and I like neither: Give up the threat mechanic or make the traps hurt enough that the players will stop…

In the US rules, the quests seem sufficiently difficult, especially later ones. The value of threat is not so much to make the game harder for the players, but to make it more fun for Morcar to actually have some strategic planning and unpredictability. And maybe to have just a little more chance of killing the players if they're not careful. ;)

I have to think on it. I keep coming back to the fact that I didn't realize how lame the wizard really was. He needs some balance somewhere.


The issue with the Wizard is basically to do with how spells work in HQ. The wizard gets everything upfront, and there's no real sense of growth for the character. Thus, the Wizard essentially stays as he is right from the start, and that's how he's been balanced.

A quick fix might be to either include new spells for the Wizard to learn, or to include a few items that can actually improve his spells when he casts them.
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby iKarith » Sunday April 18th, 2021 3:11pm

The problem is that he feels weak next to the other three starting players, though, except he's got that one genie spell, if he's got that even.

A thing about D&D that's probably well known in the age of the Internet but wasn't necessarily when I was a kid … Gary Gygax hated the wizard. So he made the wizard as weak as possible so people wouldn't play them. Modern D&D goes the opposite route where you build a tough character and then begin taking levels in magic, or otherwise have these massive powerhouse charachters dealing 60-70 damage at a time at moderate levels.

But look at LotR which is what so much of this fantasy roleplay is often rooted in … Did Gandalf ever say, "I shan't use that spell now because I might need it later…" Certainly not! (No, he reserved his magic because it was dangerous and not to be used lightly … and because wizards blasting fireballs in every direction tends to attract the attention of everything around for miles, which was never a particularly good idea for an adventurer… No, if he meant to kill a goblin or something, he'd generally stick his sword in them and be done with it.

So … no spell slots and he used swords. Seems kind of unbalanced for a game, but then considering that Gandalf was Istari, one of the Mayar, that kind of makes sense.

The alternative in a game setting is to make a wizard's magic more dangerous to the mage, I suppose. Make every spell cast a spell check with a DC, like everything else. Don't roll a natural 1… I think Dan from Dungeon Craft uses this method—but he runs a grimdark setting where characters get ground into hamburger pretty often and you might well roll up a character with just ONE hit point and nope, no rerolls!

Liiiiittle too dark for my tastes.

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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby lestodante » Sunday April 18th, 2021 3:12pm

I am working on this topic to improve the poor Wizard!
But seems very few people is interested because the Wizard is so unpopular. :cry:


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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby Kurgan » Sunday April 18th, 2021 5:11pm

Wizard too weak? Here's my solution. (I'm open to other suggestions but mainly I'm more in favor of upgrades than boosting his base version as he was in the official editions).

I combine the EU and NA versions... so the Wizard can still use a staff and dagger (1 die each). He can stockpile daggers (as all heroes can).

He can also buy Cloak of Protection and Bracers (1 extra die each). I use a expanded Armory (two pages worth), which has some new weapons that can be used by anyone but new options for the Wizard... bracers and cloak are expensive, but there's a sling, torch and whip also). He can use the rallying horn and toolkit as well.

I use the German colored dice (Green, Black and Blue... of which can easily be simulated on the standard White Dice) for my upgrade system.

He can also use the Wizard's Cloak (only wear one cloak at a time, I allow a Champion Wizard (see my Upgrade System here) to substitute 1 GREEN die in defense while wearing it) and the Wizard's Staff (Champion Wizard may substitute 2 BLACK dice when using).

Additionally, as a Champion his spells improve slightly (Genie, Ball of Flame, Fire of Wrath, Courage, Rock Skin are stronger, some other spells get extra squares of movement: Pass Through Rock, Swift Wind, Veil of Mist). The Wizards of Morcar spells have improved versions. At Knight level I only have an improvement for Rock Skin.

As a Knight (even more quests completed) he can summon an elemental.

And yes, even before the Champion level is reached, a Wizard between quests may draw 2 random Potion cards from the Potion deck posted on the Inn (and no poisons!). I interpret the "gold prices" on Potion cards to mean if you have one, you can purchase duplicates of it between quests as much as you can afford (write on sheet).

Wizard can search an unmarked Alchemist's Bench and get a random potion draw (poison possible). He can search an unmarked Sorcerer's Table and either restore a used Spell OR draw a Spell Scroll if no spells used (ruined scroll possible).

I also developed my own version of an extra shop only for the Wizard (dubbed the Wizard's Arsenal). Save that gold!

So yes, he's still weak, yes he has to survive to get those bonuses, but there you go. I don't feel like imposing some other vision of the Wizard into this game. The original game intended to allow the Wizard to buy new and powerful magical items (but never delivered). The Wizard armor existed in the EU version. Short of giving him the magical Artifacts of the EU version I offer the others.

I've given him an Artifact that is the equivalent of the Elven Bracers/Amulet of the North (+2 Body Points, +1 Mind point).

As a Champion, the Talisman of Lore gives TWO Mind Points instead of only 1.

The Elf I have not upgraded as much since I consider him pretty powerful already. But he does get some improvements:

He gets the Sorcerer's Table Search thing.
Between Quests he can draw 1 random Potion card.
He gets the Champion Spells.
As Champion he gets a random Spell Scroll draw between quests (no chance of ruined scroll).
As a Knight he gets 2 random Scrolls (no ruined scrolls) between quests.

All of the Hero classes get upgrades at Champion (3-5 quests) and Knight (10-14 quests). I use the range to represent difference between easy and hard quests (more easy quests are equivalent to fewer hard quests).

The goal of the upgrade system is to encourage players to complete more quests with their character. The progress doesn't get reset if they die and are revived through magic/artifact. Not everyone will agree, but this is what I'm doing.

I also have a house rule about searching unmarked Weapon's Racks for an Equipment card (no rusted equipment, but it could just be a dagger or something else you don't need) but that is for all Heroes, regardless.
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby iKarith » Tuesday April 20th, 2021 3:21am

That's great and all, except when you end up playing one with base stats starting in a later quest with none of those things, against tougher-than-usual chaos warriors as soon as you enter the hallway who know, inexplicably despite never seeing him, that there's a wizard around the corner, that he just cast a buff, what buff it is and (strangely seconds after a disagreement over what that buff permits) that they know exactly what to do to nullify that buff and waste the weakest character's few useful abilities before it can be used even once …

I didn't realize why people hated playing the wizard until I played him. Realizing I had exactly three attacks that didn't involve instant death because these weren't goblins and orcs I was up against, and only one attack that was not ALMOST instant death … I concluded there that the wizard is essentially USELESS under NA rules past the first few quests. You may have noticed he spent the entire rest of the game doing what I basically hate about "standard" HQ tactics: He hung back, formed up, used doors as choke-oints for single-file attacks … Because that's how you have to play the wizard, especially when he can't even actually hit diagonally because that's an upgrade he doesn't have!

He then booked it out of the dungeon, leaving his compatriots (who kinda needed healing) behind. He couldn't heal them AND get out, and the monsters would likely have made a beeline for him because he had a healing spell and he happened to have rolled a better move than the others…so the only chance at having anything to upgrade WITH was for him to make a beeline for the exit and hope the others can do without the heal they needed.

Three attacks, unless he's up against goblins or skeletons if he can strike first, that's all the wizard has. If he waits around, he's screwed and the party's screwed with him. The wizard is unbalanced and pathetic, even without the metagame.

The dwarf was much more fun to play. (I'd always played dwarf and elf before…) If you've got time to stop and search for traps, he can disarm them. "Weaker" fighters though they might be, they aren't dead the first time a monster has line of sight on them (since in HQ it means almost always that they also have line of travel in a single turn) and they can take 2-3 rounds to kill something without being killed themselves before they can.

Never played the barbarian. Not sure the extra body point and initial attack roll is worth having no other useful abilities. I just don't consider the wizard's "useful abilities" all that useful unless you do things like … peek at the quest book. And that doesn't seem like fun either.

(I will admit to a little genre-savviness. If we're going on a hunt for some lost wizard and there's an open hallway and an immediate door across from the one you came out of … your objective does NOT lie beyond the early door, since you're meant to have an Adventure™. Accomplish the objective. Mop up treasure after.)
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday April 20th, 2021 9:45am

But consider the vast number of players who never made it past "The Trial," a truly difficult starting quest that has crushed many entire parties. It happens! I don't think you give the Wizard enough credit, and truly it does take time to master him. Back in the day I thought he was trash as well, but over time I've seen just how effective he can be. We could just play the game with four of the same hero... but then something of the uniqueness of the game would be lost.

I've said it before... Hero Quest isn't D&D. It isn't Gloomhaven, or Heroscape, or Warhammer or any other game but what it is. And while one can use houserules to turn it into whatever they want, I say "thank goodness" that Heroquest is just what it is.
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday April 20th, 2021 9:53am

You give a lot of things to think about but on the Wizard, we can respectfully disagree. ;)

To start off with, magic is awesome. Several spells work instantly with no enemy defense (before the effect), or work instantly to help the hero (even saving him from death). Also spells are ranged, which in the early quests, is very unique, in that the only other ranged attacks (in the NA version) are thrown daggers and the (expensive, not usable by wizard) crossbow. Forget about passing potions, when it come to healing, the Wizard (like the Elf) can do it at a distance too, but only on his turn. Unlike the Elf he gets NINE spells (and first pick at that!) and they recharge between quests at no cost. The difficulty in playing the Wizard is knowing when to use his unique skills.

Depending upon what spells he chooses (but more importantly how he uses them), the Wizard is an incredibly valuable character. Many people assume he's only got three attacks... the obvious Fire of Wrath (1 BP), Ball of Flame (1-2 BP) from Fire... and Genie (1-5 BP) from Air. Most monsters have only 1 body point, even in the "harder" NA version. But it goes beyond that.

Sleep is a very powerful spell. If the Wizard chooses Sleep, there is a very good chance the other Heroes can quickly kill any "boss" monster in short order (or, depending upon Zargon's luck, the Wizard himself can do it on his next turn with one of his big attacks).

In later quests you get some very powerful monsters that have very low mind points (Giant Wolves and Ogres come to mind), making them sitting ducks for this spell. Let's sit and consider for a minute just how awesome Sleep actually is...

In the game system only the Goblin has 1 mind point and only the Orc has 2 (so why waste it on a monster with only 1 BP), but look at the other quest packs:
Ogre Warrior
Ogre Champion
Giant wolf
... each have multiple body points, but only 1 mind point! (and that's true in the NA conversions as well)

Other monsters with low mind points:

Ogre Chieftan: 2 mind points
Enemy Mercs and Dark Warriors: 2 mind points
Polar Warbear: 2 mind points
Yeti: 2 mind points
Elven Warrior: 2 mind points
Elven Archer: 2 mind points
the mighty 10 body point Ogre: 2 mind points !

And yet it's also quite possible to sleep a Gargoyle (with 4 mind points)... all based on the dice.

Courage is a very useful spell to "buff" himself or any Hero he can see, but according to the NA rules when the monsters are out of sight, it ends. The best way to use the spell is of course in a room! The one concession I make to Courage as written is that once it is active, I allow the one it is cast upon to move back into sight of monsters at the end of his turn to keep it active (technically it says any time he loses sight that's it). And since in another thread I admitted to having too narrow an understanding of "see" it's even more useful.

There's nothing in the rules of HQ that say the Evil Wizard player has to make every monster dumbly attack the nearest hero, even if this is the case in some other types of games. Zargon knows where the Heroes are at all times, and so do his monsters, and everybody knows everybody else's body points (the rules don't explicitly state he has to tell the Hero players the body points of boss monsters, but I do when I GM). Zargon knows all ! Other games and house rules may differ of course.

Tempest causes a monster to lose its turn, which is actually far more useful than it appears. A monster who loses a turn gets to do nothing: he can't attack, move, or cast spells. This allows escape or your guys to get into position to fix his wagon.

The often underused Veil if Mist lets you move past monsters, and Swift Wind doubles movement. Helpful for getting away from monsters and escaping to the stairs or getting to your destination.

Healing-wise, the Wizard is guaranteed to have at least one healing spell, which means his "puny" 4 body points are effectively doubled (consider the Barbarian has 8 BP but no natural healing ability). Yes, if you have only one you might want to use it to save a comrade, but if it's just about self preservation, you're set, even if you argue that some very strong monsters could get a lucky roll and wipe you out in one hit. The EU rules doesn't let you save yourself from death.

Pass Through Rock is a great way to take a sneaky shortcut, or to jump right into the action where you're needed (sure it could also get you in a jam but if you're smart, it's very useful).

Most often the Elf takes the earth spells, but Rock Skin is a very useful spell as others have pointed out, since you can use it at the beginning of the quest and as long as you don't lose a body point, it could last the whole quest! Even one extra defense dice is very helpful (EU version it's super powerful with 2 dice).

In the NA game, sure, the Wizard (by default) lacks the Cloak and Bracers, but he eventually finds the Wizard's Cloak (3 defense dice) and the Wizard's Staff. Sure the staff may be "only" 2 attack dice with a diagonal hit, but it's a far better deal than just having a dagger. I've seen Wizard's get strings of lucky kills too, so it does happen, but many Wizards play conservatively.

It's true that the Wizard is not built to be a tank. The NA HQ is definitely built around the Heroes "working together." Sure, the Barbarian could run off on his own for awhile without help, but he has no healing abilities... he has no way to disarm traps (toolkits are expensive and only 50% effective), and on top of that his mind points are low (against the eventual Chaos sorcerers).

Teamwork doesn't happen automatically but I like how even within a game it starts to come together. As Zargon you're trying to kill the heroes, and hinder them as much as you can (within the rules). The only thing stopping you from being absolutely ruthless all the time is the fear that players will give up and go play fortnite. Some Zargons play such that they only pretend to be dangerous and ensure the Heroes win (or win unless they do something really stupid). This is explicitly how "the Demon King" is ordered (secretly) to play in the Japanese rules... but not the other editions.

So while the (hero) Wizard may not be a monster slaughtering machine, he's also able to keep the other Heroes alive and to help them kill monsters (Or get past them). So instead of thinking about him as "only" being able to mess up four monsters, think of him as making the difference between victory and defeat, or between losing a hero (or two) permanently and having 'em for the next quest.

If the Wizard started out fully buffed out (or as I have him in my upgrade system) nobody would want to use any other characters.

As I believe the Bard humorously put it, the Barbarian is basically "easy mode" when it comes to the Heroes, and there's nothing wrong with that. But even the Wizard got a "canonical" solo quest (granted, he can get help later), so there you go. |_P

PS: One more thing... the Elf can use any of those spells, the only difference is he picks AFTER the wizard, and he only gets the set of three (unless using the aforementioned suggested house rule).
Last edited by Kurgan on Tuesday April 20th, 2021 11:23am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby Davane » Tuesday April 20th, 2021 10:50am

I was playing a The Trial with my late partner a few years back, and the only survivor was the Wizard... that was pretty amusing, since I think the Wizard killed more monsters than any other Hero in that game...
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby iKarith » Tuesday April 20th, 2021 11:16pm

Kurgan wrote:You give a lot of things to think about but on the Wizard, we can respectfully disagree. ;)

To start off with, magic is awesome. Several spells work instantly with no enemy defense (before the effect), or work instantly to help the hero (even saving him from death). Also spells are ranged, which in the early quests, is very unique, in that the only other ranged attacks (in the NA version) are thrown daggers and the (expensive, not usable by wizard) crossbow. Forget about passing potions, when it come to healing, the Wizard (like the Elf) can do it at a distance too, but only on his turn. Unlike the Elf he gets NINE spells (and first pick at that!) and they recharge between quests at no cost. The difficulty in playing the Wizard is knowing when to use his unique skills.


The elf's three spells are just about prescribed in the rule book in NA. It's recommended he take earth or water. And if the wizard doesn't take fire first, the NA rules have nerfed him so that he will NEVER be able to do more than one BP of damage, maybe. The staff, the only thing he's allowed to use, was nerfed. So "He gets nine, and has first pick" is specious. The spells he will take first are fire, giving him two of his three actual attacks. The elf will typically take earth, the stronger of the two choices that have healing as an option.

This is pretty much how it always happens, and it's recommended in the rule book for a reason.


Kurgan wrote:Depending upon what spells he chooses (but more importantly how he uses them), the Wizard is an incredibly valuable character. Many people assume he's only got three attacks... the obvious Fire of Wrath (1 BP), Ball of Flame (1-2 BP) from Fire... and Genie (1-5 BP) from Air. Most monsters have only 1 body point, even in the "harder" NA version. But it goes beyond that.


Of the 35 monsters in the original game, goblins, orcs, and skeletons have 1 BP. That's a lot of monsters, sure, but after the first handful of quests you're more likely to encounter fimir, zombies, mummies, chaos warriors, and the gargoyle.


Kurgan wrote:Sleep is a very powerful spell. If the Wizard chooses Sleep, there is a very good chance the other Heroes can quickly kill any "boss" monster in short order (or, depending upon Zargon's luck, the Wizard himself can do it on his next turn with one of his big attacks).

In later quests you get some very powerful monsters that have very low mind points (Giant Wolves and Ogres come to mind), making them sitting ducks for this spell. Let's sit and consider for a minute just how awesome Sleep actually is...

In the game system only the Goblin has 1 mind point and only the Orc has 2 (so why waste it on a monster with only 1 BP), but look at the other quest packs:
Ogre Warrior
Ogre Champion
Giant wolf
... each have multiple body points, but only 1 mind point! (and that's true in the NA conversions as well)

Other monsters with low mind points:

Ogre Chieftan: 2 mind points
Enemy Mercs and Dark Warriors: 2 mind points
Polar Warbear: 2 mind points
Yeti: 2 mind points
Elven Warrior: 2 mind points
Elven Archer: 2 mind points
the mighty 10 body point Ogre: 2 mind points !

And yet it's also quite possible to sleep a Gargoyle (with 4 mind points)... all based on the dice.


Sleep was useful … and that's a lot of monsters … though several of them show up in the same maps together. One and done! Everything the wizard does. He should strategize, I suppose. (read: He should check out the quest book ahead of time so he knows when and where to use his one debuff spell, or when it's time to use his one buff spell.)

Kurgan wrote:Courage is a very useful spell to "buff" himself or any Hero he can see, but according to the NA rules when the monsters are out of sight, it ends. The best way to use the spell is of course in a room! The one concession I make to Courage as written is that once it is active, I allow the one it is cast upon to move back into sight of monsters at the end of his turn to keep it active (technically it says any time he loses sight that's it). And since in another thread I admitted to having too narrow an understanding of "see" it's even more useful.

There's nothing in the rules of HQ that say the Evil Wizard player has to make every monster dumbly attack the nearest hero, even if this is the case in some other types of games. Zargon knows where the Heroes are at all times, and so do his monsters, and everybody knows everybody else's body points (the rules don't explicitly state he has to tell the Hero players the body points of boss monsters, but I do when I GM). Zargon knows all ! Other games and house rules may differ of course.


I've said that was a fair move. A dick move, but a fair one—again, this isn't D&D, we're not role-playing. There's no way two stone chaos warriors could know that a wizard they cannot see had just cast courage, and how to counter it. And you said that the EW knows … and that's true. It's a board game, and the only condition in which the EW wins is if the heroes are dead. You CAN play it as a role-playing campaign in which case it's less about the game in front of you and more about the journey … but there's nothing that says you have to, anywhere. In fact quite the opposite: There are five players and heroes who survive "win". If Morcar kills the heroes, he wins.

I didn't like it, but I said at the time it was a fair move. And you did even ask me, what happens if the warrior moves just out of sight? That should've been my clue that you'd do that. I didn't think you were serious.

Kurgan wrote:Tempest causes a monster to lose its turn, which is actually far more useful than it appears. A monster who loses a turn gets to do nothing: he can't attack, move, or cast spells. This allows escape or your guys to get into position to fix his wagon.


I should rethink Tempest.


Kurgan wrote:The often underused Veil if Mist lets you move past monsters, and Swift Wind doubles movement. Helpful for getting away from monsters and escaping to the stairs or getting to your destination.


Assuming of course that Morcar doesn't know he's hurt and send the monsters after him. He only has one… After all, picking off the easy prey wizard is a good way to start taking out the four heroes. If the wizard ever gets into a position he needs to use it to escape, he's screwed. And despite it saying he moves unseen, if he uses the spell to go deeper into the dungeon, any monster will know instantly where he his immediately upon the finishing of his turn, even if that monster never saw him during his move. So the spell is useful for running away and not much else.


Kurgan wrote:Healing-wise, the Wizard is guaranteed to have at least one healing spell, which means his "puny" 4 body points are effectively doubled (consider the Barbarian has 8 BP but no natural healing ability). Yes, if you have only one you might want to use it to save a comrade, but if it's just about self preservation, you're set, even if you argue that some very strong monsters could get a lucky roll and wipe you out in one hit. The EU rules doesn't let you save yourself from death.


We never did that when I played—another thing that makes me wonder if what I played decades ago was EU rules. If you died, you were dead unless you had a card that explicitly said it would save you from death.


Kurgan wrote:Pass Through Rock is a great way to take a sneaky shortcut, or to jump right into the action where you're needed (sure it could also get you in a jam but if you're smart, it's very useful).

Most often the Elf takes the earth spells, but Rock Skin is a very useful spell as others have pointed out, since you can use it at the beginning of the quest and as long as you don't lose a body point, it could last the whole quest! Even one extra defense dice is very helpful (EU version it's super powerful with 2 dice).


The Wizard takes earth because the rules kinda tell him to take earth. We usually had the Wizard taking water, but not always, since he was more likely to benefit from things like slipping past a monster to attack the one behind the one in the way, for example.


Kurgan wrote:In the NA game, sure, the Wizard (by default) lacks the Cloak and Bracers, but he eventually finds the Wizard's Cloak (3 defense dice) and the Wizard's Staff. Sure the staff may be "only" 2 attack dice with a diagonal hit, but it's a far better deal than just having a dagger. I've seen Wizard's get strings of lucky kills too, so it does happen, but many Wizards play conservatively.

It's true that the Wizard is not built to be a tank. The NA HQ is definitely built around the Heroes "working together." Sure, the Barbarian could run off on his own for awhile without help, but he has no healing abilities... he has no way to disarm traps (toolkits are expensive and only 50% effective), and on top of that his mind points are low (against the eventual Chaos sorcerers).


Yeah, in quest 6 we should've run into an artifact that might help with that a little. The extra 2 MP are kinda important … oh, nerfed. :bites-lip:

Kurgan wrote:Teamwork doesn't happen automatically but I like how even within a game it starts to come together. As Zargon you're trying to kill the heroes, and hinder them as much as you can (within the rules). The only thing stopping you from being absolutely ruthless all the time is the fear that players will give up and go play fortnite. Some Zargons play such that they only pretend to be dangerous and ensure the Heroes win (or win unless they do something really stupid). This is explicitly how "the Demon King" is ordered (secretly) to play in the Japanese rules... but not the other editions.


That fits with the theory that Morcar and Mentor are one and the same.

cmon.png


We didn't play that way. Plenty of heroes were monster food. And the elf killed a barbarian for his armor. He wasn't even mad because he had another barbarian who had … oh hey … we played quest 7 back then. I didn't play the first couple and I inherited a couple characters we had to write out bigger on a white board slate for me to use without a computer or anything. It was the 90s.


Kurgan wrote:So while the (hero) Wizard may not be a monster slaughtering machine, he's also able to keep the other Heroes alive and to help them kill monsters (Or get past them). So instead of thinking about him as "only" being able to mess up four monsters, think of him as making the difference between victory and defeat, or between losing a hero (or two) permanently and having 'em for the next quest.

If the Wizard started out fully buffed out (or as I have him in my upgrade system) nobody would want to use any other characters.

As I believe the Bard humorously put it, the Barbarian is basically "easy mode" when it comes to the Heroes, and there's nothing wrong with that. But even the Wizard got a "canonical" solo quest (granted, he can get help later), so there you go. |_P

PS: One more thing... the Elf can use any of those spells, the only difference is he picks AFTER the wizard, and he only gets the set of three (unless using the aforementioned suggested house rule).


I've only ever had access to the base game until … well, I guess after I get some stuff made I'll have access to the world-common expansions. And I've never played the barbarian either. Until Saturday only the dwarf and elf.

And the elf doesn't have more than three spells, but he usually had water spells when we played way back when. He had the power to slip past the help and go after the big bad. With as many CD as he could muster. He was stronger in my opinion than the dwarf—although the dwarf being able to unbock passages and disarm traps was nice.

We played that it wasn't automatic for him to do so unless he had the toolkit. Reason to buy one.
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Re: How to chose Elf Spells

Postby The Admiral » Thursday April 22nd, 2021 9:50am

I would interpret "pick" to mean choose the three cards you want. I would think it would say 'draw' if it was random.


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