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Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Friday June 18th, 2010 11:21pm
by mo123813
I've never played the mage in the mirror quest pack yet, but I let my elf heroes use the elf spells. Anyway, I noticed that tangle wood is a HORRIBLE spell! No one will EVER use it! When would a monster ever use a staff? And even if they do, whats the point of taking the item? Maybe it wasnt made for that. Okay, if not, why would you destroy your or an allies weapon? You could always just sell for half it's original value! Please let me know if I'm missing the point of the spell. Im currently making more spells for the elf, so If you want a replacement for tangle wood, stay tuned.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Friday June 18th, 2010 11:30pm
by drathe
In Mage of the Mirror, there are enemy Elven Archers. Twist Wood will remove their ranged attack. This could also be applied to other enemies using crossbows and the like in other Quests. It's true that there are better spells to choose from. In the rules, if the Elf picks the Elf Spells, they may only take three from the set, not all eight.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Friday June 18th, 2010 11:39pm
by mo123813
drathe wrote:In Mage of the Mirror, there are enemy Elven Archers. Twist Wood will remove their ranged attack. This could also be applied to other enemies using crossbows and the like in other Quests. It's true that there are better spells to choose from. In the rules, if the Elf picks the Elf Spells, they may only take three from the set, not all eight.

Well, at least there is SOME point to it. I'm still going to replace it with something better. Thanks. And I only let my heroes use 3 of them. also, wizards do use 9 spells, right?

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Monday July 25th, 2011 2:59pm
by Daedalus
This spell is useful against more than just elven monsters, so it has greater value than the text on the card indicates. It affects fully half of the monsters from the base set! Both the Fimir's and Chaos Warrior's monster cards show battle axes with wooden handles. Also sporting a wooden handle are the Skeleton's scythe and the Zombie's pole cleaver. An enemy halberdier Mercenary (not to mention an enemy crossbow Mercenary) will also be affected. An Ogre is basically castrated by this spell, affecting a Warrior's club, a Champion's and Chieftain's axe, and a Lord's mace. That's a lot less hurt to the Heroes. I figure a monster with a twisted weapon would be reduced to a single attack die, like a Hero with no weapon from Quest 6, Legacy of the Orc Warlord. An Ogre Chieftain and Ogre Lord should retain 2 attack dice as they are also armed with spiked gauntlets. -edit

As a bonus, a spear trap could also be disarmed by this spell, since a spear is a weapon with a wooden shaft. Same could apply to a swinging axe trap from the BQP expansion.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Monday February 11th, 2013 6:53pm
by Daedalus
When applying the effects of the Twist Wood spell to normal-sized weapons, it works fine, but there is a scaling problem when it is used against high-damage, high Body Point monsters such as the Ogre.

      Twist Wood
    This spell causes any wooden weapon,
    such as a staff, bow, or crossbow, to
    become warped into uselessness.
What is an Ogre left to attack with once his spiked club is rendered useless? Using the only other example of unarmed combat in Quest 6 of the Main Game System Quest Book, it gets 1 Attack Die. Against Heroes with 5 or 6 Defend Dice, that isn't worth jack. So the Heroes slowly whack away against it's 4 Defend Dice until the 10 Body Points are gone. Yawn.

It seems reasonable to me that an Ogre with 6 Attack Dice spiked club should be allowed at least 2 or 3 Attack Dice in this case. On top of that, the Ogre Chieftain and Ogre Lord should have 1 additional Attack Die after a Twist Wood spell, due to their spiked guantlets.

OK, that could cover, but what about a bigger monster for those who wish to expand the scope of the game? Imagine a Hill Giant with a spiked club. I think 8 Attack Dice is about right. Along comes the Elf, and--Phht--no spiked club. What should a Hill Giant use for unarmed Attack Dice? Certainly not 1, but more than 2, I think.

How to decide? I suggest some limits to the spell. Human-sized weapons that are mainly wooden are ruined, as stated in the spell description. Larger melee weapons, such as an Ogre's spiked club are merely damaged and have their Attack Dice halved, rounded down. That would leave an Ogre Warrior from AotOH with 2 Attack Dice, the EQP Ogre with 3 Attack Dice, a Warbear with 4/2 Attack Dice, and the hypothetical Hill Giant with 4 Attack Dice.

I'd go one step further and say if a weapon such as a Battle Axe had a lot of heft from metal, then it too should be merely damaged, having its Attack Dice halved. A Skeleton, Zombie, or Fimir attack would all be reduced to just 1 Attack Die, both a Chaos Warrior and an Ogre Champion would get 2 Attack Dice, while an Ogre Chieftain and Ogre Lord would get 3 Attack Dice.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Tuesday February 12th, 2013 8:11am
by knightkrawler
You point out a problem I've been having.
I have the exact same point of view but right now I can only intuitively rule over these cases without having found a way to write it down.

Maybe I'll have to make a chart with Monster base attack and defend dice values when they're weaponless, otherwise Heroes WILL discuss my giving an Ogre who lost his club 2 attacks with 2 combat dice each (a proper fist fight, that is). Of course, he will, with each weaponless attack, only be able to take 1 BP, not 2 (that's a rule I've written for weaponless combat), but nevertheless there's GOING TO BE dicscussions I don't want.

MY WEAPONLESS ATTACK RULE:
If a monster or hero has to attack weaponless, he/it does so with his/its assigned weaponless combat dice and hits with his assigned probability.
Heroes roll 1 combat die and hit with: Fighter classes :skull: :blackshield: , adventurer/scout classes :whiteshield: spellcaster classes :blackshield:
A spellcaster will only ever try to attack weaponless when there's is no chance to escape the fray.
From a weaponless attack, Heroes and monsters can only ever lose 1 BP, regardless of how many skulls from the attack were not negated by shields.


I wrote this to have a guideline how to handle these quests where the heroes got caught and robbed off their equipment without getting unrealistic.
Now you brought up a second reason for me to have done this. The Rust spell demands it, too.

Still, the biggets problem is assigning each and every monster a base weaponless attack dice number. For the existing monsters, no problem, quickly whipped up:
Skeleton: 0 (it will shatter itself),
Goblin 1 (hitting with :whiteshield: ),
Orc 1 ( :skull: ),
Fimir 1 ( :skull: ),
Zombie 1 ( :skull: ),
Mummy ... well, wouldn't know what to do with that, cause it's weaponless, anyway. I pretend there's a powerful magic behind it nevertheless having 3 AD, so no change there...
Chaos Warrior 2 ( :whiteshield: ),
Gargoyle stays at 4 because of his stoney hardness,
Ogre 2, two attacks ( :skull: :blackshield: )
Ice Gremlin 0 (simply too cowardish, WILL try to steal an item)
Polar Warbear 2 ( :skull: )
Yeti stays at 3
Frozen Horror and certain other characters 2 ( :skull: :blackshield: )
Elven Archer and Warrior 1 ( :skull: )
Giant Wolf, no need to change anything

Remember: A weaponless attack can not result in a loss of more than one body point at a time.
An exception you could easily make: if a monster of hero may attack with 3 AD or more when weaponless.

My :2cents: , right there.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Tuesday February 12th, 2013 10:53pm
by mako-heart
I think it is sound, but still way to complicated. You are zargon and your players need to understand that. Also i think the mummies and skeleton statement is a little strange, a skeleton could choke or bite and is animated by the same forces of chaos as the mummy, at least 1 atk. its not a martial artist skeleton is it? :2cents: :skeleton:

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Wednesday February 13th, 2013 2:57am
by knightkrawler
Yeah, you're probably right.
But I wanted to include a chance that a Hero would "waste" his spell by casting it on a mere Skeleton.
I don't know. Complicated, that system is, I'll give you that. But it prevents discussion and it is just a small chart to be referenced.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Wednesday February 13th, 2013 7:26am
by bastianbux
While I understand wanting to implement this spell more fully, I feel like its intended purpose was really just to disrupt those elven archers in the quest pack it came with. I think taking it to mean that you can twist the wood on all weapons that contain any part of wood is stretching the extent of the spell.

Re: Is there a purpose to the spell twist wood?

PostPosted: Wednesday February 13th, 2013 10:02am
by Sjeng
in my elf spell card set, I changed the functionality slightly. My version causes monsters with a weapon to attack with 1 less combat die.