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Invisibility poll

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Wizards of Morcar Quest Pack.

Wizard casts Invisibility on Barbarian. May the Orc move and attack Dwarf? (check photo below)

- Barbarian's figure is removed from the board, the Orc may move and attack Dwarf.
3
9%
- The invisible Barbarian still blocks the way, the Orc may not move outside the room.
27
79%
- None of the above.
4
12%
 
Total votes : 34

Re: Invisibility poll

Postby Daedalus » Thursday October 8th, 2015 6:57pm

In light of my referencing the original spell card rather than the one from the poll, I changed my vote to 2. However, I'll add the stipulation that line of sight is currently blocked from the Wizard to the Barbarian. The spell must have been cast before either the Dwarf or Barbarian had moved so that the Barbarian was originally visible. I'm a rules lawyer, after all.

I think of the rules of the Invisibity spell functioning like Susan Storm using her force field power while also invisible. (She can do that, can't she?) The invisible Hero can't attack or be attacked like within a forcefield, but as a fluffy side-effect he isn't visible. The force field also prevents targeting a figure obstructed by the invisible Hero--a figure isn't considered visible for targeting if it is obstructed by another figure, regardless of the obstructing figure's own visiblity. Another way of thinking about it is an obstructing figure prevents line of effect, just like Susan Storm would protect others within her forcefield. That bubble isn't any less effective at protecting others within it just because you can't see Sue.
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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby wallydubbs » Monday October 29th, 2018 11:03am

In this situation I side with Big Bene' s answer from page 1, the Barbarian cannot attack, but he does provide an obstacle for the orc. The orc would charge out the door but bump into the Barbarian, causing confusion on his part. Neither the orc or barbarian would be seriously hurt, just dazed or confused from the unexpected impact.

Time for the in game characters are not the same for people sitting at the table. The Barbarian's invisibility is temporary and the recovery time from them bumping into eachother is quick. All heroes in game time are moving and actioning around the same time. So by the time the orc runs into the Barbarian the other heroes are preparing to run in just as the invisibility power begins to wear off.

I think it would've been pretty cool if the hero could still attack while Invisible and maybe reduce the monster's defend dice as he wouldn't be able to see and thus unable parry or accurately deflect a blow.
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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby Daedalus » Friday October 8th, 2021 3:54am

After revisting this thread, I wanna take a crack at clarifying and nerfing this spell to my satisfaction. It uses a partial blocking idea from Leostante's Ice Wall spell.

Invisibility

You become invisible, moving
unseen until the start of your
next turn. While invisible, you
can't attack, but neither can you
be attacked nor spells be cast
upon you. Should you block LoS
to another, the missile attack or
spell cast on the target to inflict
Body points of damage instead
affects you. Discard after use.

And the Wizards of Zaron version:

Invisibility

This spell may be cast on any
one Hero, including yourself. He
becomes invisible until the start
of your next turn. The Hero can't
attack or be attacked, nor may
spells be cast upon him. If the
Hero blocks LoS to another, the
missile attack or spell cast on
the target to inflict Body points
of damage instead affects him.


Missile attacks and line-of-effect spells like Ball of Flame or Arrows of the Night may now affect an invisible character player indirectly if he stands in the way; he still shields the character behind but must himself risk the damage. "Conjured" spells like Tempest or Genie and buff spells like Water of Healing or Courage may now be cast upon a LoS-blocked figure behind the invisible character as it is still visible to the caster. Indirect spells like Lightning Bolt or Cloud of Chaos may also affect an invisible character since they target areas (You can run, but you can't hide!)

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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby Kurgan » Friday October 8th, 2021 11:28am

So being invisible makes you transparent (and thus not target-able by LOS required effects), but not that you're non-solid and can be passed through like a ghost.


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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby wallydubbs » Friday October 8th, 2021 11:59pm

Kurgan wrote:So being invisible makes you transparent (and thus not target-able by LOS required effects), but not that you're non-solid and can be passed through like a ghost.

I don't know about the pass through hero part. Veil of Mist allows a hero to pass through squares occupied by monsters, the word "unseen" kinda throws me off here as this is the same word used onnthe Veil if Mist card. A hero doesn't turn into mist and go from there. He is, in fact solid and just moves through the same square without bumping the monster. It seems like the same logic could apply to Invisibility and Disappear spells.
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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby Kurgan » Saturday October 9th, 2021 11:44am

So a sneaky spell. And nobody gets to cheat and pretend that because the human player can see all objects, that the character also can "accidentally" see them as well. Only the sneaker gets the benefit.


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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby Jalapenotrellis » Friday January 28th, 2022 2:58am

Daedalus wrote:After revisting this thread, I wanna take a crack at clarifying and nerfing this spell to my satisfaction. It uses a partial blocking idea from Leostante's Ice Wall spell.

Invisibility

You become invisible, moving
unseen until the start of your
next turn. While invisible, you
can't attack, but neither can you
be attacked nor spells be cast
upon you. Should you block LoS
to another, the missile attack or
spell cast on the target to inflict
Body points of damage instead
affects you. Discard after use.

And the Wizards of Zaron version:

Invisibility

This spell may be cast on any
one Hero, including yourself. He
becomes invisible until the start
of your next turn. The Hero can't
attack or be attacked, nor may
spells be cast upon him. If the
Hero blocks LoS to another, the
missile attack or spell cast on
the target to inflict Body points
of damage instead affects him.


Missile attacks and line-of-effect spells like Ball of Flame or Arrows of the Night may now affect an invisible character player indirectly if he stands in the way; he still shields the character behind but must himself risk the damage. "Conjured" spells like Tempest or Genie and buff spells like Water of Healing or Courage may now be cast upon a LoS-blocked figure behind the invisible character as it is still visible to the caster. Indirect spells like Lightning Bolt or Cloud of Chaos may also affect an invisible character since they target areas (You can run, but you can't hide!)

.


Reading this forum in preparation for our group embarking on it in about a month (we have 1 more quest in Against the Ogre Horde). We have been playing that they get current and previous expansion benefits as they are unlocked, so all these spells will be new.

Daedalus brought up a point I hadn't seen mentioned in the rest of the thread about spells and line of sight, but I don't agree on some of his assessments. For example, Ball of Flame does not state that it is a projectile, it just requires line of sight. If the consensus from this new Invisibility spell is that
1) you are unseen and move through enemies (similar wording to Veil of Mist, so this is an improvement over that spell)
2) attack, be attack, or affected by spells

The effects of this spell, tactically, are that:
1) You get the effects of Veil of Mist, but you may not attack (so if you want to attack, use Veil of Mist)
2) You get the effects of Tempest as a debuff on any enemies he is blocking--they can still defend, but they effectively cannot attack who is in front of them. However, it is a buff instead of debuff (not that they can defend/save against Tempest, which is crazy in games like this!).
3) The player who receives Invisibility is a movement block against approaching enemies before and after his turn (unless cast upon himself). Good for stopping an advance, or good for blocking being followed.
4) This allows the wizard, or elf with the double cast potion 'Potion of Magical Aptitude' (and assuming everyone gives the Wand of Magic to the wizard...), to cast invisibility on the person in front of him in a crowded hall and then have clear line of sight to the person behind him for casting a different spell.
5) Allows players and monsters to have line of sight when otherwise they wouldn't for crossbow or ranged attacks.
6) Agree that area of effect magical attacks still hit (Fireburst trap--they differentiate between magical traps and spells in the Treasure Deck card additions), and the person cannot be directly targeted due to lack of line of sight. Reading the raw reading of the spell text, you also would evade a Lightning Bolt, Firestorm, Cloud of Chaos, etc.

I tend to like to boil things down like this. Lots of spells have interesting tactical applications, and this spell is very impressive now that I'm reading up on it.

Does anyone else houserule that the wizard, with Talisman of Lore, can get another spell school, or the Elf can get 1 extra spell? I feel like that encourages them taking it off the barbarian ;)
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Re: Invisibility poll

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Tuesday February 22nd, 2022 4:02pm

For me it is less about being a rules lawyer and more about trying to determine, when some rule or effect isn't clear, what the intention was of the designers by interpreting rules and effects in the context of the other published material, and the theme, spirit, and flavour of the game (which is distinct to home-brewing which is adding stuff to make the game, in your opinion, better)

This spell may be cast on any one Hero including yourself. That Hero may become invisible and move around unseen until the beginning of your (the spellcaster's) next turn. While invisible they may not attack, be attacked, or be affected by spells


I think we all get that if you can’t be seen then you can’t be attacked or targeted by spells, but the piece that isn’t clear to me is why the card states that you cannot attack.

Not being visible obviously doesn't physically prevent you from smacking someone with your weapon (on the contrary I personally would consider it to be the best time to smack someone with a weapon) so why is that piece of text included on the card?

I assume that the intention of the designer(s) of the spell is to allow the Hero to move around invisible, undetected and unaffected by monster actions for a turn, and as the spell doesn’t mention any conditions or situations in which the spell can be ended prematurely it seems clear to me that the assumption is that the spell will always successfully render you invisible, undetected and unaffected by monster actions (which presumably is your intention in casting this spell) for a full turn and therefore you could not choose to attack a monster whilst under the influence of the spell as it would render you detected (or sneeze, fart, whistle and a whole host of other things, but there is only so much space on a card)

If you are trying not to be detected then you would do your best to get out of the way of an passing monster, the same way as you do a passing Hero, no one is suggesting that you have to be incorporeal to let someone pass you in a five foot wide corridor, you just have to flatten yourself up against the wall and perhaps breath in, but there are challenges in working out how to handle occupying the same square, being in the path of an oncoming ranged attack and other such situations, not necessary insurmountable problems but they increase complexity which isn’t in the spirit of HeroQuest.

In my opinion the easiest and simplest way to represent what I think is the intention of the spell is to handle as follows

Wizard casts spell on Barbarian (place a marker on his square but remove the figure) play continues without the figure on the board until the beginning of the spellcaster’s next turn, at which point the Barbarian can roll his movement dice and take his movement starting from the marked square and moving under the standard movement rules but passing unseen through squares occupied by monsters until he finishes his movement at which point the figure is placed back on the board in the new position and he can take an action as normal.

So its option 1 from me

Note: This isn’t just a repeat of the Veil of Mist spell as you skip a whole Evil Wizard player’s turn, so it is more powerful.

For those who think that the invisible Hero should still block movement of a monster, you have to consider that the turn sequence is a convention to represent all the Heroes and Monster moving concurrently. The Barbarian is invisible for a whole turn, we know where he was at the start of the turn when he disappears and where he ends up when he reappears but exactly which square, he was on during each moment of that turn we don’t know. You say that a monster cannot move through or finish his turn on a square occupied by the invisible Hero, but we don’t know which square he is occupying at that moment as we can’t see him, he is invisible! :roll:

If it helps think of it like Schrodinger’s Barbarian :idea:
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