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Heroes return full health between quests as series, right?

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Against the Ogre Horde Quest Pack.

Heroes return full health between quests as series, right?

Postby Jalapenotrellis » Wednesday August 4th, 2021 1:06am

Just looking for confirmation that if the quests are played as a series, the heroes/Champions still return to full health between quests as they get their spells back too. They just can't spend money or sell items found. My group didn't see a strong downside to not playing them as a series due to the 20 full heal potions they get between them. Seems like a no brainer, since they didn't change their order or spells prepared anyways for the last two expansions.
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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday August 4th, 2021 11:07am

Yeah I played a few quests of Phoenix's variant and that's how we treated it.

But in the EU rules (ATOH was an EU exclusive originally), you can't use a spell or potion to save you from death at 0 BP and they would have been intended not to heal you between quests but to keep you alive for a really difficult series of missions. The EU rules also don't have an Alchemist's shop to buy potions... and potions you find in the Treasure deck get returned to the deck between quests (not sure about other quest-note potions) and there's no Elixir of Life, so it's a lot harder (people have called the NA game "Potion Hoarder Edition").

The difficulty increases quite a bit using NA rules, since now traps can't be "fixed" after being sprung, and more monsters besides the Ogres have multiple body points (Phoenix's edition suggests fixed BP, so no wimpy 1-2 BP Ogres mixed in).


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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby wallydubbs » Thursday August 5th, 2021 4:22pm

Jalapenotrellis wrote:Just looking for confirmation that if the quests are played as a series, the heroes/Champions still return to full health between quests as they get their spells back too. They just can't spend money or sell items found. My group didn't see a strong downside to not playing them as a series due to the 20 full heal potions they get between them. Seems like a no brainer, since they didn't change their order or spells prepared anyways for the last two expansions.

At first i thought the heroes had to maintain their body points between quests, but i must've just been remembered the time it was played on Table Top Simulater.
I actually just looked through the rulebook just now and can find no permanent indication that says they don't.
My bad for stating otherwise. You're good.


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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday September 14th, 2021 6:13am

It sounds like playing with restored Body Points is a viable option. Why have others chosen to play with Body Points not refreshing between Quests? I believe their rationale was based on an equivalence, where five healing potions and left over Body Points are considered worth the forfeited restored Body Points following six Quests. I haven't played AtOH myself, so I can't tell you which choice plays better, though I remember others saying it is a tough expansion without replenishing Body Points between Quests.

There is another possible reason to forgo refreshing Body Points between the Quests in linked adventure mode. Found under Playing the Quests as a Series, the mechanics for returning unused treasure cards to the deck and shuffling them are restated together for clarity; these rules work the same as those found in the Rules of Play. They could have been left out, but were instead included with the other changed rules.

That could be interpreted to mean all necessary rules for playing AtOH
as a series of linked adventures are included, whether changed or not. From this perspective, it appears that the standard restoration of Points between Quests rule was purposely omitted from the Playing the Quests as a Series section because the bonus healing potions supposedly address the issue.
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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday September 14th, 2021 9:18am

I could re-read the EU rulebook 2nd Edition & original copy of ATOH, but I still think the bonus potions were intended as extra healing, not to replace restoring between quests. These "big potions" don't restore lost Mind Points and if MP aren't restored, how would you handle an "unconscious" hero?

If they can't go shopping between Quests or change their spells, fine, but spells still get restored. There is no precedent for using potions between quests so it would seem superfluous* to make it that way, though it would be an interesting rule variant ("your stuff only gets restored between quests 5 times" meaning potentially they may be walking wounded on the last quest, I guess. You'd be treating it as a single seven part quest, a potentially even greater challenge than Dark Company!

As for the restoration process you can invent whatever excuses you want for how it works, but that's the usual game mechanic. The challenge of playing as a series here seems to be not being able to change your spells or buy new equipment or change your turn order. Presumably the quests don't even have to be played this way. You could play a couple of the Ogre horde quests, then jump back into another quest back, play some game system quests, etc. Here you're committing to playing them as a series in order. If you quit the series and go someplace else, presumably you'd drop the unused bonus potions because those were meant for this series run.

It's true that "multi-part quests" in the EU rules (such as Dark Company) much like such quests in the NA (like EQP/BQP finales) don't let you restore in between (don't let you visit the Armory/Alchemist Shops either)... treating it as one long quest. Your choice what you want to do, but I was asking about what was the intention behind that.

* The only exception I can think of is the official computer game from '91, but its rules are all over the place (even though loosely based on the 1st EU edition), where you don't restore between quests (but can replay a quest just to heal yourself and then immediately leave via the stairs, then warp to the quest you wanted to play at full strength). For instance in this version you can't share gold or exchange items, can only attack each other with spells and other oddities (started a whole thread about those rule variants some time ago).


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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby Daedalus » Wednesday September 15th, 2021 7:45am

Kurgan wrote:. . . These "big potions" don't restore lost Mind Points and if MP aren't restored, how would you handle an "unconscious" hero?

Yeah, the answer I found wasn't the best, but it's there:

under Mind Blast, p.10 wrote:. . . if a character or monster loses all his Mind points as the result of a Mind Blast, he is knocked unconscious and remains out of play for the rest of that Quest. Mind points are recovered between Quests in the same way as Body points.

Depending how you look at it, this mention either further supports inclusion of necessary Mind Point rules for AtOH play like the treasure cards, or it indicates that Body Points are recovered between Quests same as with the Rules of Play. The last sentence is awkward; if BPs aren't supposed to be restored between Quests, why describe the recovery of MPs in terms of the Rules of Play rule? On the other hand, why choose to referentially mention the recovery of BPs in the Mind Blast section but omit mention of it in the Playing the Quests as a Series section? Weak sauce.

Kurgan wrote:. . . It's true that "multi-part quests" in the EU rules (such as Dark Company) much like such quests in the NA (like EQP/BQP finales) don't let you restore in between (don't let you visit the Armory/Alchemist Shops either)... treating it as one long quest. Your choice what you want to do, but I was asking about what was the intention behind that.. . .

All of the other expansions and Dark Company--starting KK and RotWL--make clear if BPs and MPs are recovered between Quests or not. My feeling is being the next expansion following KK/RotWL, something different applied with the bonus potion rule so recovery between Quest was off. I wanted to include mention of the alternative to add more to the thread and answer th OP. That doesn't mean I'm convinced it is the only, correct way to run AtOH. Instead, I'm on the fence and appreciate that there is a legitimate option brought up. My choice would depend on the group I was playing with.
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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday November 26th, 2022 8:05am

Kurgan wrote:But in the EU rules (ATOH was an EU exclusive originally), you can't use a spell or potion to save you from death at 0 BP and they would have been intended not to heal you between quests but to keep you alive for a really difficult series of missions.

The difficulty increases quite a bit using NA rules, since now traps can't be "fixed" after being sprung, and more monsters besides the Ogres have multiple body points


In the EU/UK rules the use of a healing potion to save you from death wasn't disallowed it just wasn't stated explicitly unlike in the US version so was open to interpretation. Reaching zero Body Points killed you instantly. A potion could be drank at any time. Did that 'any time' include the instant that your BP reached zero? That debate ended for me with the US rules edition that explicitly clarified that rule (although I'm not happy about the Healing Spell bit in the US rules but that is a separate discussion!)

More monsters than just the Ogres had multiple BP in ATOH even in the EU/UK edition - Gargoyle, Orc Statue (even an Orc Warlord is mentioned as a multiple BP monster even though there isn't an Orc Warlord in any of the Quests!?)

That said I agree with Kurgan around the main topic on this thread, that your BP (and MP) are restored between Quests, even when played as a series, for a couple of reasons.

1. This rule is stated in the rulebook and there is no explicit mention of this rule being suspended for the duration of this Quest Book (although I do recognise the argument that the 'playing the Quests as a series' set of rules could be seen as superseding all the rules in the relevant areas of the rulebook and therefore the Body Point restore is suspended by omission)

2. If we take the notion that, for the duration of this Quest Book, if 'quests are played as a series' your Body Points are NOT restored between Quests, then what is meant by the following rule, mentioned above

Daedalus wrote:under Mind Blast, p.10 wrote:
. . . if a character or monster loses all his Mind points as the result of a Mind Blast, he is knocked unconscious and remains out of play for the rest of that Quest. Mind points are recovered between Quests in the same way as Body points.


I infer from that statement that Body Points (and Mind Points) are restored between Quests as per the standard rules, and if the intention was that rule was suspended when 'played as a series', then Mind Blast should have had an additional clarification around the effects of the spell on those playing the Quests as a series

The alternative interpretation would mean that a character or monster losing all his Mind Points as the result of a Mind Blast would be knocked unconscious and remain out of play for the entire series of Quests, which seems unpalatable and I would like to think not the intention of the designers.

The bigger challenge to me is that if it was indeed felt by the designers (rightly or wrongly as I suspect not enough playtesting was done to be sure) that these Quests were sufficiently hard that to achieve balance Heroes either had to be allowed to find large amounts of Gold in every Quest and then spend it on loads of potions OR were to be given ~10,000GC free bonus giveaway in the form of Potions of Healing / Rejuvenation at the start of the series, then surely that shows that the designers of the Quest Book felt the Quests were so difficult that they need to employ some form of dodge or loophole. If that was their assumption then why not just make the Quests a little less difficult?
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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby lestodante » Saturday November 26th, 2022 1:24pm

A potion can be drank at any time, but for me it is a mistake to allow a hero drinking a potion AFTER he lost his last BP. He should drink the potion when he's still alive. When the Hero reaches zero BP, he's dead and no action should be permitted anymore. US rule is different but for my they are nonsense, they kill some strategy because the heroes may voluntarily not use the potion (they will use it only if they are killed).


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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby Nicodemus » Saturday November 26th, 2022 2:32pm

lestodante wrote:US rule is different but for my they are nonsense, they kill some strategy because the heroes may voluntarily not use the potion (they will use it only if they are killed).


100% agree!! We still play with the North American region rules, which means there's no worry for Heroes with healing potions until the lost that last Body Point. I always took this into account in my Quests, which is why I tended to have slightly more foes and fewer healing potions. Back when I was playing with friends nearly daily the real concern for the players became Healing Potion inventory and making sure every Hero had at least one. Once I adapted to this as Zargon some of the challenge came back. I'd usually also find a way to focus down one Hero during the Quest to make them deplete their potions, than the players would start getting anxious |_P

Still a different experience from requiring Heroes to be above zero BP to use Potions because this presents uncertainty for the players whether even 2, or 3 BP is too low for some a Hero goes into combat.

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Re: Heroes return full health between quests as series, righ

Postby HispaZargon » Saturday November 26th, 2022 10:47pm

lestodante wrote:A potion can be drank at any time, but for me it is a mistake to allow a hero drinking a potion AFTER he lost his last BP. He should drink the potion when he's still alive. When the Hero reaches zero BP, he's dead and no action should be permitted anymore. US rule is different but for my they are nonsense, they kill some strategy because the heroes may voluntarily not use the potion (they will use it only if they are killed).

I agree, I also think allowing a dead hero reviving by drinking a potion is too breaking and non realistic. In such situation I only allow reviving by using a healing spell cast by another hero in the same turn the hero dies, as an ultimate and desperate solution.


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