Against the Ogre Horde 2024 Remake Edition Suggestions

[lestodante]

What I don't understand is why the entire HeroQuest magic system to date, the Vancian spellcasting paradigm, in which characters must memorize or prepare spells between quests, and can only cast each such prepared spell once, that is common to every quest and every spell before and after this quest pack* for all spellcasters whether Hero or Monster, suddenly and temporarily changes, for monster spell casters only but not hero spellcasters who have to keep to the standard magic system.

Good point, also this is what makes the Wizard a less playable character. I played the videogame Gauntlet - Slayer Edition with Merlin the Wizard and was thinking "hey! This is how the wizard should be!"
He can chose a range of 9 spells too but can cast all spells several times. Each spell has a cooldown, the stronger the spell, the longer the cooldown. But he can cast hundreds of fireball with no problems and making combo of the spells is the coolest thing. OK, that's an arcade videogame and not a boardgame, but if you play it you'll understand the feeling I had (you can check some videos on YouTube eventually).
Anyway, this should be discussed in other topics.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I agree reworking the spell system is one for a different topic, but I'm talking about NOT reworking the spell system for only some of the spellcasters but not the others for a single quest book.

Good point about Mind Lock and other spells working differently (uses of the spell vs. duration), but I don't think that hurts my larger point. If the tokens were replaced with standard cards, how does that system work any better?

Mind Lock and the other Mind spells don't work differently, they all use the tokens to track uses, Mind Lock uses the same tokens to track the duration of the spell (although this is different than for other duration spells like Sleep). Mind Lock uses 5 tokens to track uses, and the same 5 to track duration...

Spells are represented by cards, so the Mind Lock spell would be represented by a card, the tokens could then be used to track the number of turns that the victim was under the influence (although this and other spells use a spell break mechanism precisely so that you don't need a method to track the number of turns affected, they are affected until the spell effects are broken - or the caster is eliminated)

The spells in HeroQuest function more like physical devices that take time to recharge after use (which some special objects can speed up, such as certain potions or artifacts or even multiply their effect).

If that were true, then a Wizard who is killed, his kit taken by monsters and lost, and then he is restored by the Elixir of Life, then he would have no spells at all and would have to buy them between quests, but no rules exist for spellcasters to buy spells between quests in the official game, why? because they aren't physical devices they are mental constructs so never need to be bought.

Since monsters typically don't persist from one quest to another, their spell system is a lot simpler

Monsters and Heroes use the same spell system in HeroQuest because there is only one spell system. Spell casting in the world of HQ has a single set of rules that govern it, like gravity, it is a universal thing it doesn't apply to people differently depending on their allegiance

That is the easiest excuse in the world to pull if one wishes. "Due to the magical nature of this dungeon, all X, Y, Z, will now be A, E, I, O, and U."

Indeed, they could have offered an explanation but they didn't, which means that it is left wide open for multiple interpretations again. If we use your logic as an example then "due to the magical nature of this dungeon...spell casters may cast the same spell multiple times as detailed in the quest notes" then how many times can the Wizard cast Water of Healing or the Genie spell and how do they track their uses, do we need several counters for all 12 hero spells?

If the special effect is due to the presence of the Pit of Chaos in the dungeon, then why does it affect evil but not good, and why does it still work for a spell caster AFTER the pit has been destroyed/closed?

Aside from any logical inconsistency of introducing 3 new spells that use a different magic system than the standard HeroQuest one, into HeroQuest, but only applying it to one side, what happens if you ever want to use any of those spells for a different caster, good or evil?

Wizard can select 9 spells prior to a quest, does 4 charges of Mind Lock, count as 4 spells or 1 spell? Can the Wand of Recall be used to cast 2 Mind Locks in one turn (and does that burn up to charges), how do you handle Mind Lock stacking with itself, can you store a "Mind" spell in the spell ring, if so is that one or multiple charges? and so on, I don't need answers to all of those I just mean it opens up a world of unnecessary complexity

There is a spellcaster, Petrokk in KK, I think, that has a Mind attack ability that is almost identical to Mind Blast, wouldn't it be easier just to reuse the same spell and system for him, instead he can cast once every turn and it doesn't even take up an action.

[Kurgan]

Okay so then tell me why Spells can be stolen (and then found again and used)? Do the bad guys reach telepathically into his mind and erase the spells but then place the memorization notes into a room where he can re-learn them again, mid-quest (but he can never do this any other time with spells)? HeroQuest and Dungeons & Dragons are sometimes just not the same. To me the later introduction of Spell Scrolls into this ruleset further reinforces the idea that Spells really are physical devices (not that this is just a game mechanic representing something else completely). Whether you call them "Spell Books" or something instead of cards, to me is all flavor. Somehow spells can be given and taken away (then found again) even while various heroes are limited in what they can hold. Imagination can come up with any explanation you like after the fact as with so many other things in this game.

Good point that they can't be stolen (and stored elsewhere) when the hero dies (not that stolen gear could ever be used by the bad guys, it was just a way to make it so no one else could use it), so that if he comes back he doesn't have them. But the Elixir of Life isn't well explained anyway, so maybe that's more a critique of the Elixir than of the Spell System. But then when the Wizard or Elf are killed, his spells don't land on the floor for another hero to grab and try to use. But maybe they DO in fact do this, and silently give them back to the newly alive elixired hero?

I've never had to "memorize" a spell in HeroQuest. That to me just seems like a lore rationalization after the fact that some players have borrowed from other game(s), like having mana points or having strict day/night cycles for quests (instead of just it lasts however long it takes to finish).

Buying Spells is an interesting tangent, but that only occurs in the Legacy of Sorasil computer game, which came pretty late in the HeroQuest lifecycle (and is thus less well known to fans) and had no physical board game equivalent, though fans continue to mine it for ideas or attempt to work on such a conversion!

If you like, a Wizard or Elf who dies and then gets brought back to life can have his unused spells back for free, a an exception to the "rule" of lost objects at death.

Having cards AND tokens for the Ogre spells sounds fine to me as here you're not changing the mechanics and rules for the spells, just adding extra ways to keep track of them or organize them for the players. I'm objecting to the idea that we "have" to get rid of the tokens and replace them with cards, because HeroQuest doesn't use tokens or something like that. I hadn't really thought about whether Mind Lock needed two sets of tokens, one to represent duration of the spell and one to represent how many instances of the spell that could be used. I just figured however they get used up is how they get used up and you can't just rely on that one spell. Unless I'm missing something here from those who played it and found some issue with that system...

To me counters are useful. Some use them, while others don't, but if they are useful but not provided, then players will come up with their own makeshift system. For us as kids it was making hatch marks with a pencil on your character sheet (a very common intuitive way). Using chips, chits, tokens, dials, dice, or other forms of physical counters adds a visually interesting reminder. It's not required, but they already gave us a form of it, why not use it? Not saying it couldn't be tweaked, but I question removing it entirely.

As for making your own quests with the ATOH assets, I'm sure you can do that already. I don't see that anything breaks if you create a quest in which you have a dread sorcerer boss that uses the tokens. Lots of bad guy spells exist that have no heroic equivalent. I don't see the Wizard's spells breaking because he can't cast "Command" on monsters. Then again several have attempted (including officially in Prophecy of Telor) to use bad guy spells by good guys. Again I don't see the issue here, just reverse the rolls. I don't see the issue if they wanted to do this. But ATOH is only saying, here are three new spells, that happen to use tokens instead of cards, and they are applied to some specialized bad guys in this campaign. Let people come up with their own ways to adapt these to their own adventures to use in new ways if they want, no big deal. But does AH need to change this because somehow it isn't working in the original version as released thirty years ago?

It's true that different systems get introduced (see the issue with zero mind points across expansions). ATOH doesn't have to conform itself to anything else necessarily, only if that system is "broken" (not fun, not working) and there's a better solution already present. Otherwise it's just giving up some of its uniqueness in favor of conformity to something else that may or may not be superior. But if it were better, yes, I'd say use something we know already, no argument there.

Are these nitpicks enough to justify changing something (not just changing it to change it, or just to be aesthetically more similar to something else), is kind of the point of all of this, but it's been interesting. Anybody besides the two of us have an opinion to share on the spell tokens?

[wallydubbs]

I understand why Kurgan wants to keep the same system from Against the Ogre Hoard, and they probably will keep the tokens, as what little changes they made in Mage of the Mirror were minute at best, but we're also talking about a quest pack that was only released in Europe, and North American systems usually make slight changes.

Bare in mind Against the Ogre Hoard was the first European expansion to introduce spells, so to fit the format of the current game. I can't fault them for not only using cards instead of tokens, but if they want to include other spells for Nexrael and the other evil sorcerers to use it's within their power. The Token spells Against the Ogre Hoard offered (Dominate, Mind Blast and Mind Lock) all have similar North American counterparts: Dominate is very similar to Command; Mind Lock somewhat resembles Mind Blast from MotM; and Mind Blast is close to Mind Freeze from FH. Asides from the multiple use and mind point contest, the effects are generally the same.

Plus there's also possible confusion with the names: AtOH Mind Blast and MotM Mind Blast share a name but do slightly different things. The designers may choose to ignore this or just create an alternate name; Ogres are already present in MotM, and it's possible they reduced their body points to 5 to foreshadow the new AtOH and give the Ogre Warrior the same stats (I highly doubt they'll keep the variable body points system); and Rise of the Dread Moon also includes an artifact known as the Cloak of Shadows, which is a name already earmarked for a Darkness spell that should be included in the Wizards of Morcar/Zargon quest pack, assuming they remake it.

I can foresee the designers adding 3 more quests (as well as alterations to established ones), they'll possibly make a new hero, and I wouldn't doubt new artifacts either, like a Battle Axe that gives a hero 2 attacks against an Ogre (may not be used by the Wizard), or something like that.

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this.

[dreicunan]

Transparent fuchsia Ogre minis.

[Kurgan]

Maybe they should be gleaming chrome this time, or glow in the dark? They've already done the transparent minis thing (apparently as a big October trend on HasbroPulse, look at the number of "see through plastic" entries on that page!). I'm perfectly fine with dark blue and red Ogres this time like the original

[wallydubbs]

Maybe they should be gleaming chrome this time, or glow in the dark? They've already done the transparent minis thing (apparently as a big October trend on HasbroPulse, look at the number of "see through plastic" entries on that page!). I'm perfectly fine with dark blue and red Ogres this time like the original

It was Black and Red originally, the Ogre Warriors were red, but the Ogre Lord, Champion and Chieftain were all black.
However when they included Ogres in the original Mage of the Mirror those were indeed Dark Blue.

[Kurgan]

My copy of ATOH shows the Ogres as dark blue (a much darker blue than MOTM's Ogres). I think even accounting for differences in eyesight, monitors, fading and lightning when placed side by side one can see the differences, and I wish I had them handy to show a good photo.

My understanding is that while it was natural to have black figures (including a giant black Ogre, a brand new sculpt) in Battlemasters, that all other heroquest figures that appear in actual black plastic were not official releases that came in boxes, but were prototypes (may be using the wrong term here, they are identical to the final versions just a different color) that were taken home as souvenirs by MB employees and gifted (or sold) at conventions. There are black versions of all classic era HQ minis.

I've seen variants of the Ogres that are in Red (for the Chieftain, Lord and Champion, rather than the Warriors) and some (not sure which types) in gray, and black ones exist (I have a black Ogre Warrior, but this is one of those later betas or prototypes whatever they are called, I'm convinced). While I don't have a complete '92 MOTM, the blue of this is a different shade of blue (more of a cornflower) than the very dark blue of the ATOH (or the WOM sorcerers) that I bought from a european seller on BGG.

Black for these figures would be cool but it's harder to see detail on them without strong lightning, and gray is a bit boring (today is shouts "forgot to paint me!" even though originally it signaled "strong monster/special character").

[The Admiral]

Looking at what has been produced so far I don't think they will make a lot of changes. Here is what I think we will get:

Quests - As written. It has 7 good quests and I don't see them adding more.

Tiles - No changes.

Furniture - Large Throne, entry/exit doors and stone doors.

Figures - 4 Ogres as in MotM + one each for the Champion, Chieftain and Lord. This is only 7, so what else? Possibly the Druid, but I think that will be for PoT. I think they'll give us the 4 gender swapped heroes from the mythic tier. We may get some Mercenaries to bulk out the figure, and card, count.

Cards - 4 Monster cards, 4 Hero cards (as above) and maybe a 6BP Healing Potion (see Spell tokens below).

Spell Tokens - I really don't know? They have gone NA over EU in almost all situations, but they went equipment cards over the armoury board. They clearly like cards, but the spell system in AtOH is fairly unique with multiple uses of all the spells. Maybe a Dread spell card for each spell and then tokens to discard each time the spell is cast.

Ogre BP's - I think they will just go with the NA system using MotM stats for the basic Ogres and increased stats for the bosses.

Tokens - Festral's Ring, Pits of Darkness.

Things I'd like: Orcs with spears and crossbows. Orc statue, but I can use one of my translucent figures for this. I like them!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Things I'd like: Orcs with spears and crossbows. Orc statue, but I can use one of my translucent figures for this. I like them!

Goblins with Spears and Goblins with Short Bows is a key one for me, my rules all Goblins have Spears as standard and a smaller proportion have short bows, and for Orcs, in addition to the standard ones, I have small proportion armed with Crossbows and a small proportion (Henchmen) armed with Longswords - so they keep their 3 attack dice but add diagonal attacks, this increase in monsters having diagonal/missile weapons is a simple step that makes a real difference.