The Great Citadel

[AerynB]

It's been a great long while (over a year and a half) but Dave and I are finally going to be running through another KK quest today: The Great Citadel (#6). But after glancing over the layout I'm not sure I like it very much. If you're lucky enough to make the right turns and not explore the whole board, you can grab the third piece of Grin's stone map and make it out the wooden exit door without much effort at all. You don't even have to fight the Chaos Warlock leader, Gragor. So, I think I'm gonna change it up a bit.

First of all, there's like 2 other things in the chest with the stone map -- a Magical Throwing Dagger and a random Spell Scroll. I think I will leave those two items in that chest and then add another chest to Gragor's room. That's where Grin's stone map piece will be, and that way the Heroes will have to defeat Gragor, or at least lure him and his minions out of the room so someone can raid the chest. While it is very likely that players will usually explore the entire board to loot every room in sight, I just want to ensure that I get to play the evil magician character. You gotta love those neat Chaos spells!

[drathe]

...I just want to ensure that I get to play the evil magician character. You gotta love those neat Chaos spells!

Tricks for other baddies with spells that fall far too easily would be to secretly raise their BP, or have them defend with White Shields for extra longevity and challenge. Chaos Spells are few and far between. Give some Orcs and Fimir the ball of flame, sleep, tempest, or rust once in a while.

[AerynB]

*checking* Gragor has the same stats as a Chaos Warrior, with 3 BP. I think it wouldn't be too bad to double his BP to 6. Dave's Heroes are pretty well supplied so I think he can handle it. We'll just see how the quest goes. Hope he has fun.

[sadkitchen]

Around the time we finished the core quests we started playing that any gray unit (CW, Gargoyle, and CS) defended on white shields instead of black. Also any unit with defined stats got this bonus. Made the game feel a lot more balanced, as they wouldn't just die from one Genie spell. We did try later with all monsters defending with white shields and that just made the game feel tedious.
Just a thought.

And to the topic on hand. You are right, the level can almost be bypassed, but most likely (i know that it's happened for me twice) you won't have to worry as the Chaos Spells will be cast before the map piece is found.

And a slightly off topic question. Why do the heroes need to find the stone map? The first time we played through the quest pack none of us realized that the picture on the map even remotely matched the final level layout and blindly killed everything as we normally did. (and the next time even though the heroes knew they still took out everything for the fun of it.)

-SadKitchen

[drathe]

Why do the heroes need to find the stone map?

This would be the one great mystery of Kellar's Keep. The map is essentially useless in the final Quest. It does show the room layout, and there are little etching in the area of the crag, but the heroes will find their way to the end with or without it. The map is just a tool to give some of the quests in this pack a bit more purpose than just making your way from point A to point B.

[AerynB]

Well, we had a very interesting time with this quest. I tend to ramble, and this may have no relevance to you or your questing, so, no hard feelings if you don't read this rambling storytelling.

First of all, I was very proud of Dave for searching the first few rooms and corridors for traps. We haven't played for over a year and a half and sometimes Dave doesn't always remember what actions he can do as a Hero. Anyway, as you may or may not know, there are NO traps in The Great Citadel quest anywhere. Well, I didn't want Dave to get frustrated by seemingly wasting turns searching for traps and then have him not search for traps in subsequent quests where it would be helpful if he did, so I put some traps in here and there: a spear trap in a corridor, a furniture trap on one of the chests. Speaking of chests, Dave did turn right into the room with the Goblins just outside the C-chest room, but instead of going through that door when the Goblins were defeated, he backtracked to the rooms on the other side of the hallway. I was so afraid he'd forget about that room altogether and then there would have been no need for me to put the third stone map piece somewhere else. But as it turned out, once he'd cleared the rooms on the opposite side and found nothing of value he did go back to the C-chest room and open the chest, so I'm glad I did move the stone map piece.

His reactions were just great when he came across the hallway with the Fimir and Goblins, and then the other hallway with the other troop of greenskins. It was all "Whoa!" this and "Holy Cow!" that. He seemed surprised but I could tell he was happy to take down a couple of armies, mostly because he loves his crossbow technique of letting everyone run around another way while one guy keeps the minions at bay.

He was also surprised and impressed with Gragor's room. I doubled Gragor's body points for the battle, but I did feel guilty about that when his Dwarf got his helmet Rust-ed and then he got aFear-ed and his Barbarian wasn't rolling too well. His Elf and Wizard were dealing with the army near the exit, but luckily the Wizard got around the corner (with the help of a Swift Wind) and cast Courage on the Dwarf so he could attack with 3 dice instead of 1. With that final burst of courage, his Dwarf actually rolled a 6 to break the Fear spell and went after Gragor with a beefed up Battle Axe. Poor Gragor didn't know what hit him.

Let's see, what else? Well, once Dave defeated Gragor and found the third map piece in the the new treasure chest I put in that room, I was afraid he'd forget about the special A-door and just head to the exit. We'd already been playing for an hour and a half, and I wasn't sure if he was getting bored or tired yet. Thankfully he did explore that set of rooms and found the extra crossbow and potions of healing. All in all, we had a really great time questing. The Great Citadel is a good quest, but I think our suggestions in this thread make it even better.

[Big Bene]

And a slightly off topic question. Why do the heroes need to find the stone map?

Well, in Mentor's sermon it reads:
"Even Loretome does not reveal the exact location of Grin's Crag. You must find the four pieces of Grin's stone map that are scattered thoughout the halls. Only then can you travel the path to Kellar's Keep and lead the Emeror to safety".

Though I never really played through this, I always understood this line as the last quest cannot be played until all four pieces are found (the heoes wouldn't find the path between quests 9 and 10).

[Daedalus]

And a slightly off topic question. Why do the heroes need to find the stone map?

Well, in Mentor's sermon it reads:
"Even Loretome does not reveal the exact location of Grin's Crag. You must find the four pieces of Grin's stone map that are scattered thoughout the halls. Only then can you travel the path to Kellar's Keep and lead the Emeror to safety".

Though I never really played through this, I always understood this line as the last quest cannot be played until all four pieces are found (the heoes wouldn't find the path between quests 9 and 10).

I assume you mean the Heroes couldn't pass through the East Gate door that was magically protected. That makes sense to me, as the Dwarf has special knowledge to open it, only needing to roll 1d6 against his current Mind Point total. That knowledge could be what is etched in dwarven runes on the stone map. I also think that knowlege should keep the gate open for the other Heroes if the Dwarf is successful. Otherwise a lot of dice rolling would be required to get the Barbarian through.

It would have fit better for me if the East Gate challenge was placed just before Grin's Crag in Quest 10. If I ever play KK again, I'll make the change with a special secret door in the corridor just before the crag that uses the East Gate rules once found, and replace the East Gate door notes with a falling block trap that may be disarmed normally or removed after triggering with a Disarm Traps action.

[sadkitchen]

Guess we were a little to Hack n' Slash and a little less Role Playing.
I was thinking of redoing the last level of the quest with the same map but making the room's way harder to deal with. That way it paid to look at the map and decide "These rooms are unneeded. The path I need is only in the hallways."
But since I already have like 12 HQ projects competing for my time as it is, this will most likely never get done.

-SadKitchen

[Big Bene]

I assume you mean the Heroes couldn't pass through the East Gate door that was magically protected.

Not exactly. I thought that between quests 9 and ten, there is a maze of corridors (empty, therefore not a playable quest) through wich the heroes only can find their way with the help of the stone map. This is what came to my mind when reading Mentor's speach ("only then you can travel the path..."). That the map actually represents quest 10 I took for a compromise of the artist who didn't know what else to paint .

But in principle, it's the same effect in the game. Basically, according to Mentor, you just can't go to quest 10 without the finished map. It's up to the gamemaster to find an explanation that fits the in-game athmosphere. Having the east door of quest 9 magically protected is just as good (or even better) an explantation than confusinig corridors.