• Advertisement

Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby arch8ngel » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 7:56am

Maurice76 wrote:
arch8ngel wrote:I wouldn't suggest the marker be of any significance other than noting the specific room or hall that contains the dagger. Then it is simple retrieved whenever the room is clear of monsters. No need to force the player to stand on it.


This also depends a bit on the playgroup. If the group acts coherently and supportive of one another, it shouldn't be an issue. However, if players are in it for themselves, such thrown weapons could be picked up by another Hero, essentially stealing it from the other Hero.

Also, monsters should be able to steal it, if you'd ask me. Kinda like the Ice Gremlins in The Frozen Horror do.


I don't think it makes much game play sense for monsters to pick up a thrown dagger and flee, unless it was specifically an ice gremlin.

But I don't think play style of the heroes factors into whether I think the token mechanic would work. If heroes are looking to steal thrown daggers from each other, then that is kind of up to them.

Alternatively, if you see it as a problem, word your rule as "lost daggers represented by tokens are returned to their original owner when found during a search".
arch8ngel

Mummy
Mummy
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sunday March 10th, 2019 4:04pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby Maurice76 » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 8:08am

arch8ngel wrote:I wouldn't suggest the marker be of any significance other than noting the specific room or hall that contains the dagger. Then it is simple retrieved whenever the room is clear of monsters.


But I don't think play style of the heroes factors into whether I think the token mechanic would work. If heroes are looking to steal thrown daggers from each other, then that is kind of up to them.


So, who gets the weapon, if it's just a token in the room/corridor, that's automatically retrieved when the room is cleared?

Suppose playorder is Barbarian, Dwarf, Elf, Wizard. Elf uses a throwing dagger and a token is placed in the room. The next round, the Barbarian kills the last monster, so the room is cleared. Does the Barbarian get the weapon now, since it's his turn in which the room became empty of monsters? Or is it the Dwarf, who's the first to start his turn in an emptied room? Or is it the Elf?

In a cooperative group, the dagger would be returned to the Elf, but what if the group isn't cooperative? How are you going to determine who gets the weapon then, if standing on top of the token isn't the way to determine this? I don't think an uncooperative group would accept a mod-rule that states it's going to be returned to the Hero who threw it, when the weapon is just there up for grabs on the floor and the original owner isn't the active Hero.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Slain a measly Goblin! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Smashed a massive Gargoyle!
User avatar
Maurice76

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Friday March 9th, 2018 1:19pm
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 9:49am

arch8ngel wrote:I don't think it makes much game play sense for monsters to pick up a thrown dagger and flee

This is the generic US ed rule for weapons when a character dies. I'd keep that part of it.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Prince
mitchiemasha

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thursday August 14th, 2014 2:05am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 9:59am

Maurice76 wrote:when the weapon is just there up for grabs on the floor and the original owner isn't the active Hero.


I agree but using your search action still satisfies this. The Hero that wishes to claim the dagger wont be able to pick a card from the treasure deck, the next hero will. Especially if rooms are limited to 1 treasure card + items of furniture. Treasure is rare now. There's no need to go to an exact square. I remove that aspect from the game completely, it makes traps much simpler too. When I finally get to finishing my full rewrite, it removes an entire page of unnecessity form the rule book. The search action is moving to where ever you needed to be to achieve what ever you needed to achieve. Once no monsters are in your area, placement is irrelevant, as long as you start where you ended for the race aspect of the game.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Prince
mitchiemasha

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thursday August 14th, 2014 2:05am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby arch8ngel » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 10:01am

Maurice76 wrote:
arch8ngel wrote:I wouldn't suggest the marker be of any significance other than noting the specific room or hall that contains the dagger. Then it is simple retrieved whenever the room is clear of monsters.


But I don't think play style of the heroes factors into whether I think the token mechanic would work. If heroes are looking to steal thrown daggers from each other, then that is kind of up to them.


So, who gets the weapon, if it's just a token in the room/corridor, that's automatically retrieved when the room is cleared?

Suppose playorder is Barbarian, Dwarf, Elf, Wizard. Elf uses a throwing dagger and a token is placed in the room. The next round, the Barbarian kills the last monster, so the room is cleared. Does the Barbarian get the weapon now, since it's his turn in which the room became empty of monsters? Or is it the Dwarf, who's the first to start his turn in an emptied room? Or is it the Elf?

In a cooperative group, the dagger would be returned to the Elf, but what if the group isn't cooperative? How are you going to determine who gets the weapon then, if standing on top of the token isn't the way to determine this? I don't think an uncooperative group would accept a mod-rule that states it's going to be returned to the Hero who threw it, when the weapon is just there up for grabs on the floor and the original owner isn't the active Hero.


My original comment was along the lines of "the thrower automatically gets it back after combat is concluded" without wasting time or effort on some kind of strict searching rule that would require any additional game mechanics to be considered.

There isn't really a need to over complicate it, unless you want to let your heroes pick up the dagger mid-combat and throw it again (i.e. a standing-on-the-tile-retrieves-it rule)


Personally, I think the best balance with "permanently lost when thrown" daggers is to simply allow them "one throw per combat incident" in the form of the token marker being automatically retrieved by the original owner once the area is clear of monsters. (i.e. if the flee they leave it behind)

Do that with a 2-sided token to represent a maximum of 2 "safe" throws per quest (i.e. side-1-up on the board, side-2-up on the board, third throw gets no token) and I think you have a fair balance with the original "disposable" throwing dagger rule -- that is, you don't turn it into a weaker crossbow for the wizard while still making "throwing" a viable combat action more of the time.


I'm going to give some version of this a try when I get a group going at work this Friday.

(and will likely couple it with a crossbow with an ammo mechanic akin to the autocannon from Space Hulk -- at least with respect to depleting ammunition -- might be interesting to add the "critical miss"/"jam" concept on particularly bad rolls as well)


EDIT: with respect to "uncooperative hero parties"... why worry about it? Zargon sets the house rules, in my opinion, and if heroes are already adversarial to each other, I don't really care too much if they agree with a rule Zargon is putting into force. Doesn't really sound like a fun group to play with in the first place, to be honest.
arch8ngel

Mummy
Mummy
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sunday March 10th, 2019 4:04pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 10:20am

Ahh... Space Hulk. My other dedication... Take a look at this click me!!! Any one who's ever worked with word for long enough will seriously appreciate the level of skill it took to complete that table.
I also did this LoS click me! to settle a debate once.

There's no strict search rule to the MOD I keep pointing too. Lost weapons are found if the area it was lost in is searched. Like finding anything in the treasure deck or some ancient artefact, something previously lost, you now find. It's the choice of the hero to pick from the deck or claim the weapon that is now somewhere in the room.

The critical miss/Jam mechanic is :blackshield: :blackshield: :blackshield: Broken Similar to Space Hulks Malfunction. Weapons that have Follow through/Push back which is MIGHTY BLOW :skull: :skull: :skull: Critical Hit


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Prince
mitchiemasha

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thursday August 14th, 2014 2:05am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 10:28am

arch8ngel wrote:EDIT: with respect to "uncooperative hero parties"... why worry about it? Zargon sets the house rules, in my opinion, and if heroes are already adversarial to each other, I don't really care too much if they agree with a rule Zargon is putting into force. Doesn't really sound like a fun group to play with in the first place, to be honest.

Whats wrong with a bit of in game fall out? A little bit of Elf Dwarf bickering can be extremely comical. Uncooperative doesn't have to mean the players aren't getting on in real life. I believe Maurice meant that as in game.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Prince
mitchiemasha

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thursday August 14th, 2014 2:05am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby Maurice76 » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 10:36am

mitchiemasha wrote:I agree but using your search action still satisfies this.


Just out of curiousity, but are you also implying that after a room or corridor has been searched already and a thrown weapon ends up in it somehow, that the search can be performed again? Of course, with the only result of the thrown weapon being found.

mitchiemasha wrote:Whats wrong with a bit of in game fall out? A little bit of Elf Dwarf bickering can be extremely comical. Uncooperative doesn't have to mean the players aren't getting on in real life. I believe Maurice meant that as in game.


Well ... I meant both :P. To be honest, my own playgroup plays cooperatively, this would never be an issue for us; point in case was a Space Crusade game last year, where somehow the Imperial Fist player was seriously lacking in points somewhere during the game, so both the Blood Angels and Ultramarines player decided to skip some big fishes among the enemy troops, in favor of the Imperial Fist player being able to score them and get enough points to survive the mission.

However, I can imagine some groups not playing as cooperatively as players. Since we're discussing mods in a general sense (we are, right?), we also need to consider such groups. But I do agree, such groups are pretty annoying to participate in - it's just that some people can be jerks :P.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Slain a measly Goblin! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Smashed a massive Gargoyle!
User avatar
Maurice76

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Friday March 9th, 2018 1:19pm
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby arch8ngel » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 10:51am

Maurice76 wrote:
mitchiemasha wrote:I agree but using your search action still satisfies this.


Just out of curiousity, but are you also implying that after a room or corridor has been searched already and a thrown weapon ends up in it somehow, that the search can be performed again? Of course, with the only result of the thrown weapon being found.


Personally, I play with the rule of "1 treasure search per room" rather than per-player. (which already wouldn't be favored by "uncooperative" hero parties)

So that 1 search gets the normal treasure card or whatever special treasure event exists in the room.


If you're tying that to the dagger-token, then you'd get that as a bonus (in addition to whatever else was normal for the particular room).

But personally, I'd just skip all that and automatically return to the token to the original owner.


I'd want to keep it all as simple and straightforward as possible rather than waste effort on corner-cases that get introduced by anything more complex than "automatically return to owner if the owner is in the same room as the token and no monsters are in the room"

No wasted searches. No chance for another hero to "steal" it. No chance for another hero to "block" by standing in the way.

Just keep it simple.
arch8ngel

Mummy
Mummy
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sunday March 10th, 2019 4:04pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:

Re: Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

Postby Maurice76 » Wednesday March 13th, 2019 12:04pm

arch8ngel wrote:Just keep it simple.


That I can agree with! |_P


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Slain a measly Goblin! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Smashed a massive Gargoyle!
User avatar
Maurice76

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Friday March 9th, 2018 1:19pm
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

PreviousNext

Return to Rules

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest