Retrieving "Lost" (thrown) weapons

[Kurgan]

So I've seen lots of debate and discussion on this and different proposed rule alterations. I've decided that in the future, when a Hero "throws" and thus "loses" a weapon, I will allow them (or another Hero) to retrieve that weapon if:

they search for Treasure in the same room/corridor where it was lost

there aren't monsters visible in that room/corridor

the monster that they wounded with the thrown weapon (assuming they hit at all) is dead

there aren't traps that would be triggered by a search

(and still observing the rule that if the Hero dies for good in a room/corridor with only monsters, the monsters claim their lost gear, but cannot use it)


Any comments on this? The rationale I could understand for losing a weapon permanently is that it's in a dark corridor (but then searching for treasure/secret doors is pretty thorough in finding lost things), or else the monster you hit "broke the weapon" (snapped the spear in half, broke off the blade of the dagger)... but this last excuse wouldn't work so well if that hit killed them (on their dying breath they ruined the weapon?). It would suck to lose an expensive weapon like a spear, but then would be an added risk for having it. Then again a patient hero could keep getting his throwable weapon back this way (assuming some other opportunistic player doesn't go and snatch it first).

To me this seems a lot simpler method than putting a gear or skull tile on the square where it "landed" and making them walk over it and say they are picking it up. I'd just assume wherever it is, they find it, even if monsters were to stash it in a corner.

[Maurice76]

Interesting question, one that I haven't thought about yet. We always played with thrown weapons being lost and hence, never used thrown weapons.

With the ability to retrieve them, you need rules in place that are clear and consistent. It's not a guarantee that a monster gets damaged by a thrown weapon and hence, it may not stick into the monster after being thrown. Even so, it's possible that a thrown weapon gets dislodged or pulled out after inflicting an injury. Personally, I would implement the following rules:

"After a weapon has been thrown, it is possible to retrieve it later on. When the weapon is thrown, place an equipment token on the game board. The location depends on the attack roll. If any skulls were rolled during the attack, the equipment token is placed underneath the target. Otherwise, it is placed on any of the four surrounding tiles, but not on the other side of a wall.

To retrieve a thrown weapon, the Hero figure must be moved on top of the equipment token and the player must claim they are picking up the item. During the turn of the Evil Wizard, any monster may also claim the token by moving on top of it. If that monster succesfully moves out of line of sight of all of the Heroes, the weapon is permanently lost. Otherwise, if the monster carrying the equipment is defeated, the item is retrieved."

[j_dean80]

Isn't it simpler to just leave it "lost"? One could say the tip got bent or blunted when it hit a wall or floor, or the monster that got hit with it, broke it. Seems highly likely and reduces the need for more tedious rules.

[Maurice76]

Isn't it simpler to just leave it "lost"? One could say the tip got bent or blunted when it hit a wall or floor, or the monster that got hit with it, broke it. Seems highly likely and reduces the need for more tedious rules.

Well, the point is really that in my playgroup, thrown weapons were never used because they could be used for only 1 attack. The cost was simply considered too high, for the damage potential they had. In order to make them more appealing to use them, in addition to the "permanent" arsenal at their disposal, being able to retrieve them could be a solution.

[arch8ngel]

I like the idea of placing some kind of marker on the board that can be retrieved during a room search.

Only losing the dagger on a black skull seems a bit too low-risk for the price and utility.
But losing it on a white shield only might work.

Alternatively, you could say if EITHER the player or the monster roll a black shield it is lost.
(i.e. player rolling black is a "critical miss", monster rolling black successfully blocks in a way that breaks the weapon)


The issue is finding the balance where you are willing to risk the throw, but you haven't just given your wizard a weaker version of the crossbow...

[Kurgan]

The "lost forever when thrown regardless of hitting" is the default setting, I'm just speculating how the retrieve mechanic could be done well, of course. The placing a marker thing seems like something the Hero players would want, but it reminds me of how in the earlier rules the Dwarf had to walk right up to the furniture trap with his movement to then try to disarm it... vs. where he basically teleports to the spot (which ends his movement).

The whole "fail hard attacking with a black shield" is an interesting idea, I'm not sure I want it though.

As for making things overly complex, how about this... after you throw it, it does get damaged (and is unusable) but if you are the dwarf (or somebody who trained in the technical skill, or is the Blacksmith class Hero), you can roll to see if you are able to repair the weapon. Alternatively, you can take a trip to the Blacksmith shop in between quests and pay a lesser fee to have your equipment repaired... I don't like the idea of having to buy more arrows, but I see some people have come up with that rule. I think buying a special (one use) type of arrow that uses a better attack die is a neat idea though.

I came up with a modified dagger (basically your magical throwing dagger but not a guaranteed hit.. it rolls a black die and can't be defended if a skull).

Just brainstorming there. I think I may just have an arbitrary point that whatever is done to retrieve lost weapons, it can't be done for daggers. I know... maybe you can retrieve a weapon only a certain number of times before it is considered used up?

[arch8ngel]

I wouldn't suggest the marker be of any significance other than noting the specific room or hall that contains the dagger. Then it is simple retrieved whenever the room is clear of monsters. No need to force the player to stand on it.

Edit:. You could also just use a double sided token so you get a very limited number of throws per quest tracked.by which face is up on the token.

[Kurgan]

I wouldn't suggest the marker be of any significance other than noting the specific room or hall that contains the dagger. Then it is simple retrieved whenever the room is clear of monsters. No need to force the player to stand on it.

Edit:. You could also just use a double sided token so you get a very limited number of throws per quest tracked.by which face is up on the token.

That makes sense, arch8ngel. The gear icon I see gets used in EQP and the retrieval of lost gear gets used in BQP, so it's not unprecedented.

[mitchiemasha]

Only losing the dagger on a black skull seems a bit too low-risk for the price and utility.

1 in 6 chance, seems pretty good for me. Plus as it's the standard Damage mod, no need for extra ruling or fiddliness for various unique things.

Edit: I've just realised this is a different thread. Not the one I'd already commented in. Keeping the threads combined would of been better.

they search for Treasure in the same room/corridor where it was lost

Yes... Much easier to use the words "lost weapons are found if the room or corridor is searched" you can add "for treasure" at the end. Now you're not braking the original rule, it still stands true, thrown weapons are lost.

there aren't monsters visible in that room/corridor

No reason to add that, it's the default rule for searching... adding this removes the bonus of say a Thief skill mod, "search in the presence of monsters" now a thief can pick up the dagger if monsters are in the room still, this is intended but doesn't need to be clarified.

the monster that they wounded with the thrown weapon (assuming they hit at all) is dead

No... This is OP. A hero could kill a boss monster with 1 dagger.

there aren't traps that would be triggered by a search

How would a Hero know this? using the mod as written, the EW disallowing the search would signal to the Heroes... "AHHHH! TRAPS!!!".

but this last excuse wouldn't work so well if that hit killed them

A killing blow can be as much damaging to the weapon as a not killing. But, using the damage mod doesn't reflect this. When the Hero Searches they'd simply be pulling it from the body and it would always be fine. Only missed throws result in damage, an attack role of .

The simple solution is to place the gear token in the room, representing lost. Searching the room finds it. Weapons are broken in combat when rolling equal to it's attack dice power.

[Maurice76]

I wouldn't suggest the marker be of any significance other than noting the specific room or hall that contains the dagger. Then it is simple retrieved whenever the room is clear of monsters. No need to force the player to stand on it.

This also depends a bit on the playgroup. If the group acts coherently and supportive of one another, it shouldn't be an issue. However, if players are in it for themselves, such thrown weapons could be picked up by another Hero, essentially stealing it from the other Hero.

Also, monsters should be able to steal it, if you'd ask me. Kinda like the Ice Gremlins in The Frozen Horror do.