The Alchemist's Bench: drug pros and cons

[Thantos]

You don't want to have a history battle with me.

That's correct. Im not instigating a battle, history or otherwise. Simply pointing out that boldly claiming "Every single great mind and author of our modern era used drugs" is flawed and wrong.
Every single - Nobody can possibly know about "everyone" and "everything".
Great mind - Who judges what minds are great? The rank of 'great mind' is a qualitative opinion. Many people id consider great minds; most people will have never even heard of.

A more accurate assessment would be "A few famous authors, politicians and scientists have taken drugs, or are rumored to have taken drugs. Just like how a few homeless people have taken drugs, or are rumored to have taken drugs. See how there are drug users at both ends of life's spectrum? And so not enough evidence to make an apparent correlation between achievement and drug use.

I believe its up to people if they want to take drugs or not, and is no business of mine. But claiming mind altering substances will make you smarter, richer, famous and happy -frustrates me somewhat.

And congratulations to you for telling us all what a success is. Too bad for all the people like Oscar Wilde or Benjamin Franklin, who gained success the "easy" way.

Success is an arbitrary measurement from one person to the next. Success is the act of attaining your goals or desires in life. So it depends on what you are aiming for, as to what ways your success, or lack of, is made manifest in.

You're just wrong, and also delusional [---] YOU CANNOT USE MARIJUANA EXCESSIVELY. You can't. You can never smoke so much that it harms you. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't know the freakin' *lemony goodness* about drugs.

Im guessing your making a witty ironic joke there

[knightkrawler]

No need to bash anyone. This is not a thing that should be carried out as a debate.

Sjeng is absolutely right in not taking any drugs and not feeling the need to do so. Period.
Chaoticprime is right that Sjeng shouldn't pat himself on the back for not taking drugs.

He's also right about ignorance on the matter. The reasons for illegalizing "drugs" are not medical - is is unhealthy? Let's make it illegal. We all know it doesn't work that way and we all know why cigarettes are still legal while Marijuana is ridiculously not. I'm not even talking about "my" drug Meth here. Or cocaine.
I cannot stand halfknowledge and sophisms on that topic. I can't.

Also, Thantos: you're not serious with that "a few" comment, are you? I mean, just open your eyes.
If we define something "destructive" to be a drug, even the hard-partying soft-rockers from the '80s... creative through abuse. It's that simple.
We're not even talking about Rock'n'Roll, but EVERYFUCKINGGENRE that is considered art or music or film or anything.
I believe with all my heart that 90% of anyone who appears in media and counts as a person of public interest for, say, a year, has something to say about abuse of substance of any type. We all can feel it, we all know it. Look Katy Perry in the eye and tell me what you see.

On health: Any substance your body takes can be countered in its effect through giving it another substance with a counter-effect.
EVERYTHING you give your body can in raw theory be held in check. It's a matter of WHAT, WHEN, HOW, and HOW MUCH with the effects and counter-effects.

You hear about meth mouths all the time, and when you consult the media you're told after a year or two of extensive meth use unstoppably causes the teeth to crumble and wither away.
BUT the meth mouth is not an effect of meth use, BUT OF BAD MOUTH HYGIENE which MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be caused by meth addiction and the carelessness that is its #1 effect.
My teeth are perfect after one year of heavy addiction.

One can, however, get cancer because of too many fried potatoes.
ANY SUBSTANCE BECOMES A POISON IN A CONCENTRATION THAT YOUR BODY CANNOT TAKE.

So, please, let's not get pseudomoral about "drugs". I can't stand it, chaoticprime can't and will debate, and anyone with no experience on drugs from an active or passive side (family members or anone who "has to" deal with a junkie) quite frankly wouldn't have anything interesting to say on the matter.

I am completely behind everything chaoticprime has said on the topic except the personal bashings. I think Sjeng just wanted to write something interesting and that's that.

[TMU]

Can't we just get over that and move back to the topic?

[Thantos]

Some interesting points KK.
With regards to a lot of the people of interest in the media being drug users (singers, TV stars, film) - i wouldnt consider many of todays celebrities TV stars or musicians to be 'great' in any way.
As an aside - are these people famous because they take drugs, or do they take drugs because they are rich, bored and famous? Chicken - egg question there

My "a few" point is with regards to scientists politicians and authors, not Russel Brand and Katy Perry.

But yep, you are right - we are a bit off topic. xD

[wolfie907]

firstly ive most likely have used as much or more different types of drugs as anyone here [marijuana,coke,crack,heroin,oxy,fentinol,valium,percoset,vikoden,opium,lsd,mushrooms,extacy,morphine,meth,crank,ritalin,aderol,alcohol,codine,somas,zanax,zoloft,seraquil,dust off,hash,whippets,cigarettes,ambeien,moonshine,and other random pills here and there] I don't use any of them anymore although I do miss alcohol and weed alittle im not Christian or pro government im not now nor have I ever been addicted to any of these substances[maybe cigarettes I smoked for about two years] these substances are harmful in many ways and you are an idiot if you don't think so. kk do you smoke meth snort it or shoot it cause the method of use makes a big difference on your teeth. marijuana if nothing else is bad for your lungs[I do however feel it should be legal its just pot] its a gateway drug I know this is propaganda but as ive gotten older ive come to find some truth in it,most drug users I know including myself smoked pot before doing other drugs,does this mean if you smoke weed youll be shooting up[something ive never done] eventually NO! but it can be a step down the path. Here is some scientific data http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/d ... /marijuana marijuana also literally clogs your brain ive seen cat scan pictures that have resin looking *lemony goodness* in the brain cells.http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7jsy ... o3_500.jpg I have seen people with the shakes and dope sick this is definitely harmful and looks most unpleasent

[Sjeng]

Thanks for posting some research about marihuana being destructive to the brain, but if people refuse to believe such a thing, and refuse to simply look it up, there is no point in providing proof.
It is not me who is acting like a christian here.

I will leave it at that CP. You would do well to do the same for the sake of the friendly spirit we have on this board.
I might not know all there is to know about drugs but I know enough to stay away from them and that most if not all are bad for your health in one way or another. Addiction is never a good thing.

[knightkrawler]

kk do you smoke meth snort it or shoot it cause the method of use makes a big difference on your teeth.

Firstly, I don't anymore. I did. And I snorted as often as I could. But that's not the point. My point was the media telling everyone that meth WILL have the meth mouth as an effect. Black and white. Either you don't use meth or you'll have a meth mouth. But I think we're well gliding beside the point of the discussion.
The point was don't bash people for their habits if you don't have anything useful to say about said habit.

Trust me, I know my former addiction, but only I will ever know how and why it came to it, so I am personally offended by sophisms and semiwisdoms about that habit/addiction from people who have no clue about anything concerning it. And I am talking about a drug that I and probably anyone else strictly declares as a drug that is and should be illegal and definitely is very very dangerous. There's no discussion about that.

There ARE however, points of debate about Marijuana's and others' perceived dangerous effects and legal issues (I side with chaoticprime's take on this, by the way), so I understand why chaoticprime might be even more offended than I am.
That, I think, was the point.

[Sjeng]

Just to be clear here: I don't think I was bashing anyone nor did I mean any offence. I merely stated that I feel that these drugs are harmful and dangerous and should be avoided. And that I'm glad I never felt the need to try any.
I posted on the blog and then someone responded to that here. That's fine, but somehow it angered CP. I'm not sure why, but honestly, after his fit and childish topic about me and fraggles, I don't care. Sorry CP, but I can't stand stuff like that. Grow up.

Yeah, I know willpower and resolve are important, but no amount of either will cause my body to manufacture the serotonin I need to feel happy. Apparently I am an under-achiever who sedates himself from reality, instead of facing it like the guy who congratulates himself for avoiding something he knows nothing about. And congratulations to you for telling us all what a success is. Too bad for all the people like Oscar Wilde or Benjamin Franklin, who gained success the "easy" way.

1. I've never needed a drug to feel happy.
2. I never said anything about you or anyone being an underachiever because of using drugs.
3. I don't recall talking about successes. Please don't misread my posts. (if you were referring to my posts that is).

I'm happy I've never needed drugs or felt the need to try any. I think smoking is disgusting, let alone illegal drugs. If this makes you angry at me, so be it. I can't help that. I'm not angry at you, nor do I think you a lesser person for using drugs. I just think it's unwise.

[Gold Bearer]

I don't believe for one second that you've never taken any drugs. No anesthetics or medicines?

By "drugs" I mean illegal substances, like weed, cocaine, etc. etc. Obviously, I've been given medical drugs in the hospital on rare occasions.

Who are you trying to please with that, your parents? There's not a whole lot of difference between the excesses of pragmatic miniature collecting and recreational drug use (including cigarettes). In either case you're buying self-satisfaction. Every single great mind and author of our modern era used drugs. When governments start rewarding people for not doing drugs, then maybe I'll reconsider my position.

Except that miniatures won't break down your body. I'm not pleasing anyone, I just don't want to get addicted to a destructive habit, that's expensive and gets you hospitalized eventually, or worse. It's my body I care about, I want to keep it healthy. I think that's reward enough.

I think that's reward enough.

Amen.

You can't group all illegal drugs together like that. Every drug is different and the risks, or whether they can even be harmful at all varies greatly. Someone who exercises regularly and takes every drug under the sun has a much healthier body than someone who doesn't touch any drug but doesn't get any physical exercise. A little bit of anything does you good and too much of it can be harmful. That's true of anything, even water and oxygen.

So because they're illegal, they're destructive? Do you know the first thing about any of this? I don't blame you for cigarettes, but even the worst of all illegal scheduled narcotics aren't as bad as alcohol. Most of the dangers of drug-use correlate to a life-style choice. You simply cannot suffer long term harm from most narcotics--that's just not how it works. The worst thing you can do to your body is over-eat. If you consume more calories per day than you will burn during normal activities, you're actively harming your body through negligence. Are the results of this sudden? No, they're not. I assume then that you're healthy and in good shape, and have abstaining from drugs to thank for it? You're congratulating yourself for doing nothing, literally. One of the 11 most interesting things you have to say about yourself is that you think abstaining from illegal habit-forming substances has something to do with who you are today.

Yep. Compare the effects of alcohol to almost any illegal substance. Anti-drugs people always seem to overlook that. Most of the problems associated with drug users are what turned them to drugs in the first place, not the other way round. Although excessive drug use can prevent a person from doing something about those problems.

Every single great mind and author of our modern era used drugs.

'Everyone' is a lot. The term id have used is "A few".

The term id have used is "The vast majority".

Id just say good for Sjeng. What with how modern life is, all the pressures, strains and stresses enforced upon you by media, work, peers, family and the system in general; i think it's an achievement to make yourself a success through just willpower and internal resolve alone. As opposed to reliance on external substances like drugs or alcohol to numb, distort or escape the reality.

As if the only effects of drugs are to numb, distort or escape reality. I say good for CP for not being brainwashed the overwhelming and completely ridiculous anti-drugs culture we find ourselves living in.

So because they're illegal, they're destructive?

That's not what I meant. You know that. It's the other way around: harmful drugs are illegal because they are harmful.

Then wtf is alcohol legal??? That's not why they're illegal!

You simply cannot suffer long term harm from most narcotics--that's just not how it works.

I don't know about long term, but certainly it's bad on the short term. And if you keep it up, in the long term, you probably get very sick or die, which in my book falls in the harmful category. I mean come on CP, a guy as smart as you telling us drugs (and I mean the kinds of drugs that are illegal because they are harmful, not the broad meaning of the term "drugs") aren't harmful? I know how a drug addict looks like, I've seen junkies, crack-whores etc. And not just on TV. They look like *lemony goodness*. Who would want to do this to themselves? It has been proven that marihuana use is bad for your brain if used excessively (daily).
Don't deny the harmful effects of these drugs. The evidence is there, and well known, and the reason these drugs are illegal.

How the hell is it bad in the short term? People take drugs for its short term effects. There has never been a single recorded case of death by marijuana, not one. Guess how many people alcohol has killed. How has it been proven that marijuana is bad for your brain? There is NO evidence to show that marijuana is in any way harmful! Whenever a scientist tries to point this out they get sacked. The only association that's been genuinely proven is a link to schizophrenia and there's every reason to think that it's only because people who are naturally predisposed to schizophrenia are taking it to cope with their undiagnosed condition.

You're like a Christian.

That's a bit offensive. Nobody deserves to be compared to a christian!

You don't want to have a history battle with me.

That's correct. Im not instigating a battle, history or otherwise. Simply pointing out that boldly claiming "Every single great mind and author of our modern era used drugs" is flawed and wrong.
Every single - Nobody can possibly know about "everyone" and "everything".
Great mind - Who judges what minds are great? The rank of 'great mind' is a qualitative opinion. Many people id consider great minds; most people will have never even heard of.

A more accurate assessment would be "A few famous authors, politicians and scientists have taken drugs, or are rumored to have taken drugs. Just like how a few homeless people have taken drugs, or are rumored to have taken drugs. See how there are drug users at both ends of life's spectrum? And so not enough evidence to make an apparent correlation between achievement and drug use.

I believe its up to people if they want to take drugs or not, and is no business of mine. But claiming mind altering substances will make you smarter, richer, famous and happy -frustrates me somewhat.

Marijuana does increase intelligence in a number of ways, especially creatively, and the great thing is it lasts even if you stop taking it because those neural pathways are in place for good. People who are in absolutely no position to criticise something because they've never experienced it, but do so anyway frustrates me no end.

No need to bash anyone. This is not a thing that should be carried out as a debate.

Sjeng is absolutely right in not taking any drugs and not feeling the need to do so. Period.
Chaoticprime is right that Sjeng shouldn't pat himself on the back for not taking drugs.

He's also right about ignorance on the matter. The reasons for illegalizing "drugs" are not medical - is is unhealthy? Let's make it illegal. We all know it doesn't work that way and we all know why cigarettes are still legal while Marijuana is ridiculously not. I'm not even talking about "my" drug Meth here. Or cocaine.
I cannot stand halfknowledge and sophisms on that topic. I can't.

Also, Thantos: you're not serious with that "a few" comment, are you? I mean, just open your eyes.
If we define something "destructive" to be a drug, even the hard-partying soft-rockers from the '80s... creative through abuse. It's that simple.
We're not even talking about Rock'n'Roll, but EVERYFUCKINGGENRE that is considered art or music or film or anything.
I believe with all my heart that 90% of anyone who appears in media and counts as a person of public interest for, say, a year, has something to say about abuse of substance of any type. We all can feel it, we all know it. Look Katy Perry in the eye and tell me what you see.

On health: Any substance your body takes can be countered in its effect through giving it another substance with a counter-effect.
EVERYTHING you give your body can in raw theory be held in check. It's a matter of WHAT, WHEN, HOW, and HOW MUCH with the effects and counter-effects.

You hear about meth mouths all the time, and when you consult the media you're told after a year or two of extensive meth use unstoppably causes the teeth to crumble and wither away.
BUT the meth mouth is not an effect of meth use, BUT OF BAD MOUTH HYGIENE which MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be caused by meth addiction and the carelessness that is its #1 effect.
My teeth are perfect after one year of heavy addiction.

One can, however, get cancer because of too many fried potatoes.
ANY SUBSTANCE BECOMES A POISON IN A CONCENTRATION THAT YOUR BODY CANNOT TAKE.

So, please, let's not get pseudomoral about "drugs". I can't stand it, chaoticprime can't and will debate, and anyone with no experience on drugs from an active or passive side (family members or anone who "has to" deal with a junkie) quite frankly wouldn't have anything interesting to say on the matter.

I am completely behind everything chaoticprime has said on the topic except the personal bashings. I think Sjeng just wanted to write something interesting and that's that.

Well said.

firstly ive most likely have used as much or more different types of drugs as anyone here [marijuana,coke,crack,heroin,oxy,fentinol,valium,percoset,vikoden,opium,lsd,mushrooms,extacy,morphine,meth,crank,ritalin,aderol,alcohol,codine,somas,zanax,zoloft,seraquil,dust off,hash,whippets,cigarettes,ambeien,moonshine,and other random pills here and there] I don't use any of them anymore although I do miss alcohol and weed alittle im not Christian or pro government im not now nor have I ever been addicted to any of these substances[maybe cigarettes I smoked for about two years] these substances are harmful in many ways and you are an idiot if you don't think so. kk do you smoke meth snort it or shoot it cause the method of use makes a big difference on your teeth. marijuana if nothing else is bad for your lungs[I do however feel it should be legal its just pot] its a gateway drug I know this is propaganda but as ive gotten older ive come to find some truth in it,most drug users I know including myself smoked pot before doing other drugs,does this mean if you smoke weed youll be shooting up[something ive never done] eventually NO! but it can be a step down the path. Here is some scientific data http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/d ... /marijuana marijuana also literally clogs your brain ive seen cat scan pictures that have resin looking *lemony goodness* in the brain cells.http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7jsy ... o3_500.jpg I have seen people with the shakes and dope sick this is definitely harmful and looks most unpleasent

I used to get the shakes every time I smoked. It was annoying at times but it was also funny. It only lasted about twenty minutes and it didn't come back once it passed. You ever done DMT? I don't belive for a second that marijuana "clogs your brain".

Thanks for posting some research about marihuana being destructive to the brain, but if people refuse to believe such a thing, and refuse to simply look it up, there is no point in providing proof.

Lol. That's not research, it's a link to a totally biased report that mentions research but doesn't provide any. There is NO research, and certainly no proof to show that marijuana has any negative effects but a wealth of data that show positive ones, which are obvious to practically anyone who does it (some people do react badly to it).

I might not know all there is to know about drugs but I know enough to stay away from them and that most if not all are bad for your health in one way or another. Addiction is never a good thing.

You know enough to scare you away from it. That's all the media want you to know.

Just to be clear here: I don't think I was bashing anyone nor did I mean any offence. I merely stated that I feel that these drugs are harmful and dangerous and should be avoided. And that I'm glad I never felt the need to try any.
I posted on the blog and then someone responded to that here. That's fine, but somehow it angered CP. I'm not sure why, but honestly, after his fit and childish topic about me and fraggles, I don't care. Sorry CP, but I can't stand stuff like that. Grow up.

I think it angered him because it's totally out of line to tell other people (who clearly know a great deal about the subject than you do) what they should or shouldn't be avoiding. It angers me too. You deserve no more credit for deciding to avoid drugs than people or decide not to. It's just that simple.

Yeah, I know willpower and resolve are important, but no amount of either will cause my body to manufacture the serotonin I need to feel happy. Apparently I am an under-achiever who sedates himself from reality, instead of facing it like the guy who congratulates himself for avoiding something he knows nothing about. And congratulations to you for telling us all what a success is. Too bad for all the people like Oscar Wilde or Benjamin Franklin, who gained success the "easy" way.

1. I've never needed a drug to feel happy.
2. I never said anything about you or anyone being an underachiever because of using drugs.
3. I don't recall talking about successes. Please don't misread my posts. (if you were referring to my posts that is).

I'm happy I've never needed drugs or felt the need to try any. I think smoking is disgusting, let alone illegal drugs. If this makes you angry at me, so be it. I can't help that. I'm not angry at you, nor do I think you a lesser person for using drugs. I just think it's unwise.

I've never needed to paint a picture, write a song or play tiddlywinks to be happy. That doesn't mean I think they should be banned and/or think that people who do enjoy them are "disgusting". Why do otherwise friendly and people think that it's somehow acceptable to be complete arsewipes when it comes to the subject of smoking and drugs? Because they've been brainwashed into looking thinking it's acceptable to look down on people who make a different choice about them. That's what's truly disgusting.

I wish I'd never clicked on the pub forum now. No hard feelings, I just need to rant on this subject sometimes because it frustrates me so much.

[TMU]

I for one stay away from the drugs, smoking and alcohol. I have never tasted alcohol or tried cigarettes or drugs. Say what you want, but I am proud of that!