Kurgan wrote:So Davane, you're admitting that changes in canon can happen because of "behind the scenes" stuff involving marketing and legal issues, right? That doesn't seem controversial.
I admit nothing. NOTHING, I TELL YOU!
Changes in canon can happen, certainly. However, from a design perspective, it's always better to ADD to canon than to subtract from it.
My point is that WHEN HQ was designed, it was part of the Warhammer World. Since GW and MB split, MB couldn't use the Warhammer World without GW approval, but they COULD add to the HeroQuest brand. Likewise, GW couldn't technically add to the HQ brand without MB's approval (which they must have got, at least twice, since they published HQ adventures in White Dwarf.
Since there is nothing official to say that HQ is NOT still set in the Warhammer World, I would argue that it IS set in the Warhammer World, since it WAS set in the Warhammer World when designed. The primary use of this is that it gives a wealth of background material for adaptation to your game. If YOU want the game to not be in the Warhammer World, that's fine with me.
I argue this way, because as much as I have seen of the HQ brand, if you remove the Warhammer World from HQ, then you have no real setting. There's been nothing OFFICIAL to replace it, as of yet. Of course, this may change with the reprint, in which case, we get to explore a whole new world, with a whole new set of expectations and standards.
Kurgan wrote:One constant in these forums is that there is no single vision of how Hero Quest ought to be, everybody's idea is slightly different. And while there are debates on here and exchanges, ultimately there's a mutual respect and tolerance of different visions. Nobody's fandom is being doubted, everybody just has different things they like about the game and different ideas about how to "make it better." I think it's great that this isn't a bunch of old jaded gamers trying to keep the past going because they can't enjoy new things, it's simply keeping alive something they enjoy, which was always based around creating your own content from the very start... a game which itself was based on modifications of existing properties and spin offs of previous ideas.
Preach. That's what makes these discussions so interesting.
Kurgan wrote:I'm not so much arguing that these artificial ways in which the canon was shaped "should" be honored. I go back and forth between wanting to always support "author's intention" and giving nostalgia its due for the product presented as is to the public and allowed to garner a following.
I'm not nostalgic about "Morcar" or "Skaven" or "the Warhammer world" because that wasn't part of the game I played and came to love. I can appreciate those things now, seeing the history and parallel development of the game in different territory. So I have no problem with scenarios involving "chaos gods" and so forth.
This touches on the other point of what parts of the Hasbro Remake people here like or dislike. I am not "upset" about "Dread Warriors/Abominations" because it's taking out "Warhammer" from the mythos, and that somehow I feel this is disrespectful to Games Workshop which "ought" to have their mark on HQ preserved. Rather, it's because it's (to me) an unnecessary change from the "thing I loved" that I wanted to see released again. I can appreciate the new designs for what they are and I can UNDERSTAND the reasons why things were changed.
I grew up with these things being an important part of HQ, and without them, HQ feels lessened in some way. I don't think, however, that the issue is that Hasbro are taking Warhammer out of HQ, as much as the fear that Hasbro aren't going to replace it with something just as enjoyable. Of course, a few name changes doesn't strictly mean they have taken the Warhammer out of HQ, so they may just build on what is ostensibly a version of the Warhammer World, without actually using any GW IP. We shall see - but given Hasbro's current communication efforts, I don't hold much hope for the reprint to be anything more than a fire and forget cash grab...
Kurgan wrote:If the Games workshop relationship changed in the 1 year between HQ's release in the UK and North America, I can't say. I have never researched this topic and rely upon the reports of people in these forums, honestly. I don't care that much to learn. But the fact remains, regardless of what happened behind the scenes, is that over here we got a certain product, played that for years and that was "Hero Quest" to us, just as the other territories got theirs. The attitude that somehow we "should" or "ought" to impose the "original vision" of Hero Quest on the whole world... that is better than imposing some other vision on the whole world? I'm not actually in favor of the idea that "Hasbro Remake" is the one and only canon of Hero Quest. If we're going to insist on "canon" this is where the problem comes in. Who has the "authority" to "define canon"? It's the owners of the property, isn't it? Because they can say "sorry UK players, Fimirs and Chaos Warriors don't exist... this is not set in the Warhammer world" and they can also say "sorry NA players, that guy was Mentor all along, also these certain elements from the European version, which you never knew about in your childhood, are part of the gameplay now." So in that sense EVERYBODY's Hero Quest is "changing." Not because you can no longer enjoy the classic versions (nothing stops that), but the general public, unless they are informed by us fans, or are curious enough to learn, will probably underestimate the extent of the changes and not appreciate what came before.
Shame, because I enjoy researching gaming history myself. Feel free to ignore any comments on history that you don't find interesting - but just be aware that is the stance I am arguing from.
You are right, people won't neccessarily appreciate what has come before. That's why it's up to fans and historians like myself to inform people who are interested. If they are not, then they can feel free to move right along.
In my opinion, canon is very important, because it is very useful - but not something that should be enforced, even if it could. If Hasbro are going to replace the canon, I am interested to see what they replace it with, else it's back to the known Warhammer World.
My impression however is that Hasbro won't go so far as to say Chaos Warriors and Fimir don't exist (Fimir are a GW trademark, by the way), but will just lampshade over them without comment. So it's more a case that we have Dread Warriors and Abominations now, and we probably won't hear about Fimir or Chaos Warriors ever again. But simply not mentioning Fimir or Chaos Warriors won't be enough to convince me that HQ isn't set in the Warhammer World, because Hasbro aren't actually replacing the world - they are just adding Abominations, Chaos Warriors, and Orc Bards to it. I am just interested in seeing how these additions are being integrated into the new canon, if they are going to be at all.
Kurgan wrote:I certainly don't appreciate the Warhammer stuff. It's simply a novelty to me, not "how it ought to be." Someone, using a critical eye, could bash transformers and say it's a ripoff series. It's just a rehash of some old toys to try to sell them again to a new generation of kids who doesn't remember the originals. But it became famous in its own right. And like so many franchises that have been remade, you have different generations of iterations of the product that are different. So to some people that is "Convoy" to others it's "Optimus Prime." Some people want the Dinobots to be blue and silver, others want them to be red and gold.
I am not arguing that Warhammer is how HQ "ought to be." I am arguing the Warhammer is how HQ "was," and I haven't seen a reason for that to change. I didn't stop playing HQ because GW didn't have the rights for it. If you are interested in how HQ "was," that's great, but if not - then you do what you want, and feel free to move right along and ignore anything from me that doesn't interest you.
I don't know what your experience with the Warhammer World actually is, but as a world that has been in the making for over 30 years, there's a plethora of inspiration there for you if you want to use it. Maybe you want to set your next HQ horror game in Castle Drachenfels, or maybe even exploring the Yetzin Valley?
Kurgan wrote:Authorial intent may not always coincide with who owns the legal rights. George Lucas can say whatever he wants about Star Wars, but the product that exists is what exists. He changed his own movies a half a dozen times as "special editions" and tried to get people to embrace those over the originals (some did, some didn't). Then he sold it and all the creative control was given to other people (and now I've heard he works sort of as an advisor in a very limited capacity with some friendly directors who work on the new franchise, but his role is minimal).
Stephen Baker seems to me, to be a kind of guest writer, a collaborator or advisor this time, rather than like some kind of head creative director or designer. So his opinions may be respected by fans, but Hero Quest for many is no longer just what he wanted, or anybody else who worked on the original project(s). So there's good and bad in that. What ultimately matters to PLAYERS like me is what the product is like. The history of its development, the economics and politics are more a simple curiosity. It's too bad the collaboration didn't last. For better or for worse, we got what we got.
I agree, but I like knowing the roots of things. I believe history is just as important. Helps make better stories, in my opinion. The problem is that, sometimes, the new content doesn't match the existing authorial intent, and quite often this is done for commercial reasons. As such, new content can often be seen as ill-fitting, disrespectful, or even just plain bad.
But, in all fairness, if you are going to judge anything, you should bear in mind the stance that you are judging it from. I think any new content from Hasbro will be judged both in whether it fits the pre-existing HQ legacy canon, and on it's own merits. Looking back over this thread, I can see people in both camps, and most of the debate here is actually people from different camps judging things using different perspectives and criteria.
Kurgan wrote:The EU versions of the game I think had some cool things that us NA players never got. Now modification of the game is part of the game, and was intended from the start, so it's easy to take that official material from other versions, seasoned to taste, and incorporate them into your own sessions. It will be the same way with the Remake.
And decades from now, if anyone still cares about the 2021 version, who knows, maybe people who grew up with that version will love that one the best and will incorporate new material into theirs as well.
Houseruling is what fans do. Whilst they can debate whether the official contents are up to snuff, they will also change anything they want to suit their purposes. I don't think this is strictly intentional, but rather, it comes implied since HQ is supposed to be a GAME. Besides, what are Hasbro going to do if I use the Warhammer World instead of any new canon they provide? Kick my door down and take back my nuHQ set, and permaban me from rolling combat dice ever again?
Kurgan wrote:From an economic standpoint, I can understand if they don't do localizations this time. To me then the idea of incorporating nostalgic material from the other versions makes sense. Yes, in a way the NA version seems "more complete" or "more refined" but in other ways it is missing some key things. Here I'm talking about the thing as a whole... so the EU version is all the expansions released for that territory, and the NA version has its own expansions. You've got different rules, and you've got equipment cards vs. armory, and a few extra artifacts, but apart from variations in the art, it's basically the same thing. The expansions and some of the window dressing are where the differences come up that we've been talking about. Some "little things" are really important to certain people.
Hence, you won't please everybody with this Remake. People who want to buy it but don't like this or that will have to make their own versions or "deal." It's a lot easier with a customizable board game with a built in modding fan base, as opposed to say, Star Wars where certain fans will make "edits" of the movies to portray the version they want to see the best, with nobody agreeing completely on which changes or edits are best.
I think it would be cool if somehow, legally, Games Workshop, even if they couldn't work directly with Hasbro to create the ultimate "remake" tripping all our nostalgia triggers, could at some later time, release something that could be used to smooth that out for hardcore fans. But it looks like at this point, that doesn't exist. At best you'll get side projects like Warhammer Quest or the aborted Anniversary gamezone project that people can cannibalize for ideas to make the remake "more like what they wanted."
The best advice, short of a well written letter to Hasbro (CC: Gamesworkshop?) is to just DO IT YOURSELF. If it's good, it will attract others, and while it may never be as big as something official they could put out, it will create a niche community that you can be proud of.
I don't see Hasbro doing localizations unless there's a big demand for foreign language versions of NuHQ. Unlike in the early '90's, there's now a global HQ community. I see this more as an opportunity to unite the HQ community behind a single version, that everyone is going to houserule back to whatever they prefer anyway.
There's plenty of changes between the UK and US editions, many of which I have incorporated into my HQ games. But ultimately, both versions are more or less the same game, so it's very much an irrelevance right now unless you are talking rules specifics.
Kurgan wrote:PS: I was gifted a box of Warhammer 40k Orks not so long ago. I still don't have a use for them on the gaming table (been wracking my brain for one... capture the flag?), so they're just a side painting project. But these don't have to be acknowledged as part of my HQ games, other stuff can exist that isn't part of this. There, I created my own fan "canon." Pretty easy. But since I can change it and play with it any way I want to, what is the point? Is someone going to start complaining during "Grim's Crag" that there should have been Orks with guns in those passages?
WH40K isn't considered part of the Warhammer World. They just share branding - in WH40K, the God-Emperor resides on ancient Terra (Earth) in the Sol system. The only link between the two settings are the Chaos Gods...
I am assuming that you are attempting to make an absurdo reductum argument, but my reply is that if you Ork Dakkas in HQ, go for it! You could always modify the Orks weaponry to resemble blackpowder weapons made of scrap. You can then use them instead of Orcs with Crossbows to ambush your heroes. Whatever you decide for your game, goes - I don't think anyone (besides your players, maybe) will complain if Orks with Boltguns turn up in your games of HQ, and I certainly don't think anyone will condemn you if you decide to skip that particular idea.
It kind of reminds me of an old April's Fool article in Dragon Magazine, where the author talks about the player character death rate in his games, because he has zombies in tanks, and orcs with rocket launchers and canisters of bubonic plague. He states that his games are "faster paced than most."
I also find it somewhat amusing that you continue to argue as if Warhammer and GW are interchangable, and that Warhammer is this cohesive entity which is all that GW has to offer. That might describe Warhammer as a Brand, but not Warhammer as a product line or as a setting. A year or so ago, GW launched Warhammer Quest: Blackstone Fortress, which is basically a WH40K version of Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower. Despite the branding as WHQ, neither can be said to actually be a reprint or replacement for WHQ in any way...
