Plate Armour

[cynthialee]

How kind of you men to tell me how I am wrong and my feelings are unjustified. Typical really.
My feelings are not subject to debate. I am hurt, I feel constantly shut down and counter-pointed. I do not feel like things have been a debate around here recently.

Let me explain it one more time and add a simple extra point to the topic:
The people who designed this game made some mistakes. Some are so blatant and wrong that they must be addressed. Plate mail evenly distributes the weight of the armor. It does not indeed slow a man to basically half speed. I could accept a -1 or -2 points on the dice roll with a minimum of 1 point of movement. I have seen men run, jump and do cartwheels in plate armor in real life. And they were wearing that armor all day long. Yes these men were very fit and healthy young men, but that is who the heroes are supposed to be...fit healthy young heroes. The one hero that isn't is the Mage and he has a prohibition on Plate.
And now for the extra point of contention:
No other piece of basic gear in the armory has a de-buff/penalty.

The extra dice defense is so overpowering that we must put a penalty on the wearer?

[knightkrawler]

How kind of you men to tell me how I am wrong and my feelings are unjustified. Typical really.

Ah, well, yeah. Since you put it that way, I see the error of my ways. No really, you are of course utterly right about everything.
Or is that condescending now? How typical of me, then. How to react after this can of worms has been opened? I wonder.

I am hurt now. Does it count? Or do I have to rise above my pussiness to counterargue cliché that I've been accused of being? Isn't that then building upon cliché and prejudice?
So many questions.

Also, let's make a list of topics not to be discussed for the admins for easier control made necessary by people who don't understand the term 'FORUM'.
I open with 'gender'.

[Count Mohawk]

And now for the extra point of contention:
No other piece of basic gear in the armory has a de-buff/penalty.

The extra dice defense is so overpowering that we must put a penalty on the wearer?

A thought strikes. We've been debating the in-game merits of Plate Mail on its own, rather than side-by-each with its partner in crime Chain Mail. As printed, the differences between the two are: Plate Mail costs 350 extra gold, grants an extra Defend die and reduces its wearer's Move by half. If Heroes could wear Plate with no penalty, every Hero would eventually be sporting a suit once they accumulated enough gold. As far as I can tell, penalty-free plate has four main effects on the game:

• The Heroes Defend better, with 6 dice normally or 5 dice with a Battle Axe.
• Rust has a much costlier effect, as Plate is much more expensive to replace than Chain.
• Borin's Armor becomes merely 'normal' Plate that is also immune to Rust (although the trap in The Cold Halls specifically destroys Borin's armor, but not normal Plate).
• Rather than offer end-game Heroes a choice between defense and speed, they can have both.

I think that last point is the main reason why people are so attached to 'heavy' Plate (well, that and nostalgia, which makes no sense given that pretty much everyone plays by their own house rules anyway). Even if it's an artificial restriction, assigning a penalty of some kind to the use of Plate allows slightly more decision-making for the Heroes while they spend their gold at the armory.

...And if you want to get really technical, the Battle Axe also has a restriction: you can't use a Shield with it. [/nitpick]

[Gold Bearer]

How kind of you men to tell me how I am wrong and my feelings are unjustified. Typical really.

Comments like that make it very hard to take you seriously. You think that any time a man disagrees with a woman that he must be doing it for that reason. That's an extremely simplistic attitude that hurts the cause of stopping genuine predudice. The only one here being sexist is you.

I have seen men run, jump and do cartwheels in plate armor in real life. And they were wearing that armor all day long.

Was it made of tin foil? I know that it's a misconception that knights could hardly move but you can't carry around any reasonable amount of extra weight and expect to be able to move like evolution intented.

The extra dice defense is so overpowering that we must put a penalty on the wearer?

Plate armour gives you one more defence dice than you would otherwise be able to have, so yes it's a simple penalty that makes perfect sense for the mechanics and realism (as much as anything else anyway). It's not a mistake.

I've made a more gradual weight increase for armour that doesn't change either of the originals.

Cloth Armour: 50GP D1 M12/3D6
Padded Armour: 100GP D2 M8/2D6
Studded Armour: 150GP D2 M10/3D6(highest two)
Leather Armour: 200GP D2 M12/3D6
Splint Mail: 250GP D3 M4/1D6
Banded Mail: 350GP D3 M6/3D6(lowest two)
Chain Mail: 450GP D3 M8/2D6
Scale Mail: 550GP D3 M10/3D6(highest two)
Ring Mail: 650GP D3 M12/3D6
Suit Of Armour: 750GP D5 M2/2D6(lowest one)
Plate Mail: 850GP D4 M4/1D6

I'm not about to find the actual weight differences of all these armours when it works so cleanly like that. It's simple and tidy and that's because it's based on a system that uses simpe and tidy rules to start with. There are a few stupid rules in HQ but this just isn't one of them, simple as that.

[Gold Bearer]

Even if it's an artificial restriction, assigning a penalty of some kind to the use of Plate allows slightly more decision-making for the Heroes while they spend their gold at the armory.

Exactly, and it's not even an artificial restriction. The armour that weighs the most slows the wearer down. I can't believe this is even a point of contention at all.

Also, let's make a list of topics not to be discussed for the admins for easier control made necessary by people who don't understand the term 'FORUM'.
I open with 'gender'.

Forum rules
Certain topics have become known to cause friction among passionate members. We kindly ask that topics relating to these subjects be taken outside the Inn to Websites that specialise in those subjects.

Thus far, these topics are: Recreational Drugs, Religion and Science.

I was going to say something about this but decided I better not. I'm glad you did it for me. I must have missed the religion one. What this board really needs is a good political debate to shake things up. I'll write a piece on why socialism is definitely the way forward for the world and the US in particular, especially the southern states.

[Count Mohawk]

Even if it's an artificial restriction, assigning a penalty of some kind to the use of Plate allows slightly more decision-making for the Heroes while they spend their gold at the armory.

Exactly, and it's not even an artificial restriction. The armour that weighs the most slows the wearer down. I can't believe this is even a point of contention at all.

It's not, actually. Not to put words in cynthia's mouth or anything, but I'm pretty sure she's been recommending a lesser movement penalty about as often as no movement penalty. She said as much in her most recent post.

I'm going to link back to Big Bene from page 5, as he summarized what appears to be the consensus on this forum about plate mail and its weight. The arguments that came after his post seem to be focused mostly on how best to implement plate on the Hero Quest board. Some argue for heavy, others for light. Personally, I'm on the fence, although I currently play by slev's "Heavy" keyword rules (-1 to each movement die for each point of Heavy equipment carried, to a minimum of 1 per die. Plate mail has Heavy 2, so the Hero's movement is reduced from 2-12 squares to 2-8.)

[Gold Bearer]

Even if it's an artificial restriction, assigning a penalty of some kind to the use of Plate allows slightly more decision-making for the Heroes while they spend their gold at the armory.

Exactly, and it's not even an artificial restriction. The armour that weighs the most slows the wearer down. I can't believe this is even a point of contention at all.

It's not, actually. Not to put words in Cynthia's mouth or anything, but I'm pretty sure she's been recommending a lesser movement penalty at least as much as no movement penalty. She said as much in her most recent post.

Oh yea, she did.

[The Road Warrior]

A quick search on the interweb for 'Plate armour movement restrictions' brings up this page. I found the third video on that page interesting.

Searching a little further I found this page. Apparently a biomechanical expert at the University of Leeds decided to find out how armored knights could move and fight. He concluded that his test subjects expended nearly twice as much energy walking and running while wearing the armor as when they weren't. He found that moving around in armor is actually much more taxing than carrying the same load, but in a backpack, partially because of how the weight is distributed. In addition he also found that armor impairs breathing. Wearing plates of heavy steel over the chest and back, while potentially preventing death in a battle, limits how much the lungs can expand and how much air a soldier can breathe in. *

Draw from this whatever conclusion please you...

* mostly copied and pasted from http://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/articles/a6749/medieval-knights-on-a-treadmill-put-historical-myths-to-the-test/

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Count Mohawk makes a point that actually touches upon my understanding of how the armoury works, and why plate mail has a -1 red die penalty

...And if you want to get really technical, the Battle Axe also has a restriction: you can't use a Shield with it. [/nitpick]

I grew up with the EU game so this is not really applicable to NA players but...

Consider a Hero with a Broadsword, a Helmet, a Shield and Chainmail as a starting point. The Hero rolls 3 attack dice and 5 defence dice. From this point any change the player makes to the way their Hero is equipped has both a pro and a con. the player may choose to:

• Swap the Broadsword for a Spear - Pro: diagonal attack, Con: rolls one less attack die
• Swap the Broadsword for a Battleaxe - Pro: rolls one additional attack die, Con: cannot also equip the shield and so rolls one less defence die
• Swap the Broadsword for a Crossbow - Pro: may attack any figure they can see*, Con: may not attack an opponent they are adjacent to
• Swap the Chainmail for Plate armour - Pro: rolls one additional defence die, Con: may only roll one die for movement

The spear, staff and 2nd ed. shortsword are all interchangeable as the diagonal option.
The NA system obviously blows this out of the water by adding the Longsword.
*Is this assumed from our knowledge of what a crossbow is? I can't see any reference to it on the EU cards or in the rulebook. NA armory definitely fixed this.

As this is how I view the armoury I think the plate armour penalty is in line with the effect of the other options available to the players.

But..

I think the movement restriction is too severe on plate armour and as such I have rarely, if ever, seen it purchased. I also don't really think it is necessary for the heroes to roll 6 defence dice so I'm ok with this.

Also, let's make a list of topics not to be discussed for the admins for easier control made necessary by people who don't understand the term 'FORUM'.
I open with 'gender'.

Can I add general relativity and the electric universe please

[knightkrawler]

Can I add general relativity and the electric universe please

Has been done. Falls under 'Science'.
The other implemented taboos are 'Drugs' and whatchamacallit... ah, yes, 'religion'.

By the way, my wish was purely sarcastic. This is a forum.

[The Road Warrior]

Can I add general relativity and the electric universe please

Has been done. Falls under 'Science'.
The other implemented taboos are 'Drugs' and whatchamacallit... ah, yes, 'religion'.

By the way, my wish was purely sarcastic. This is a forum.

Tongue firmly in check, but you knew that didn't you.

And on a related note. Welcome back goldbearer.