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Why buy the tool kit?

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from HeroQuest Game Systems.

Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby torilen » Tuesday September 22nd, 2015 9:13am

The dwarf has great skill with the tool kit - only has to roll a black shield to fail.
Depending on how one would want to do any sort of advancement, I developed either
skill cards and/or training that allows other characters to use a tool kit and, with training
or skills, can be as good as a dwarf...in case the party splits up and another hero with
that type of skill is needed.

My training and skill cards allow for even better use of lock picking and trap-springing,
as well. That way players can continue their heroes' advancement a bit further and
make them even more useful. This also allows the Evil Wizard/GM to create more
diabolical locks and traps, which require greater skill to bypass.

Personally - for actual HQ (when not turning it into more of a role playing game),
I prefer using the skill card method of advancement now. :2cents:


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby cynthialee » Tuesday September 22nd, 2015 11:20am

So after a question from a player I think I may have an advanced option for the tool kit.

"Can I change the traps in some way so that they trigger when a monster walks across them?" The idea was that the monsters know where the 'triggers' for the traps are and if they changed the trigger placement somehow it would work.

I had to rule 'no, for now. I have to think on it'.

How would that work? Wouldn't it be hard for me to play as if I didn't know there was a trap? Why would I do that?
Perhaps this idea: The Dwarf can only 'rewire' a spear/arrow/dart trap to aim at a different square. He may not rewire pit traps, but he may disable them. The Dwarf makes 2 maps of the area the trap is set in. After the traps are marked on the map, the first copy of the map is sealed and given to the EWP. The second map is the property of the Dwarf. When a monster crosses a square that the Dwarf has 'rewired' the Dwarf player indicates that it is time for the monster to stop as they just triggered a trap. Then the EWP will reference that traps, 'Trap Map' as provided by the Dwarf to verify that indeed a trap has been triggered. Monster takes a Body Point and likely is dead.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby clmckay » Tuesday September 22nd, 2015 12:06pm

I've had that implemented fora bit as an option for an advanced toolkit.

We keep it simple, if they successfully change he traps trigger, I put a little marker on the board (so I don't have to mark on the QuestBook). I know that if my monster steps on the trap it'll go off. If the Heroes messed with it, then they don't trigger it.

The only time its been much used in practice is when they are leaving a dungeon, either after completing the goal or retreating. I don't try to make my monsters jump the trapped square (because in theory, I don't know its there). In interest of speed I usually just run my monster through it. For pit traps, after my first monster triggers it and falls in, I just have my follow-on monsters auto-jump the hole.

I had played with using monster MPs to "see" and then disarm traps, but the whole hasn't been used enough for me to flesh that out.


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby slev » Tuesday October 6th, 2015 6:49am

Just realised that I never mentioned this one...

In my game, to disarm a trap, you need to roll 7+ on a D6.
Toolkits give +3.
the Dwarf gets +2, and starts with a toolkit.


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby Daedalus » Thursday October 8th, 2015 5:53pm

alyndavies wrote:I have played the game at various times throught my life, from 1989 onwards as a 10 year old, and have come back to it several times. In that time I have never come across a situation where someone has used the tool kit. Whats the point in rolling the dice to disarm a trap and risk getting hit by it again after it's already hit you?

You fall down a pit trap, you climb out on your next go, so just carry on with the quest, why risk a 50/50 chance rolling a skull and get hurt again? :roll:

As there was some edition confusion, here is the relevant text from first edition trap entry you referred to:
    Secret doors and Traps
    Secret door tiles are only placed on the board if a player character finds them by
    searching. Trap tiles are only placed if found by a search or if triggered by a
    character moving onto the trapped square.
    Spear traps are always disarmed when found, so there are no spear trap tiles Pit
    traps and falling block traps are placed onto the board when found. They may
    later be disarmed and removed by the Dwarf or any character with the Tool Kit
    epuipment card.
Here is the relevant text from the EU Tool Kit equipment card:
    The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.
The screen has entries for pit traps, jumping them, falling block traps and spear traps which are also found on p. 13 of the 2nd ed.:
    Pit Trap
    The pit remains on the board as an obstacle....
    Falling Block
    When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block
    symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the
    arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way....
One can see some broken rules at work here. As Gold Bearer's quote has pointed out, a trap in the 1st ed. rules can be disarmed if it is merely visible, at any distance. This works strangely if attempted with a tool kit, as one BP of damage results even if the trap is set off from afar. The 2nd ed. rectified this by specifying adjacency for removing traps. The NA rules went one further (Hero disarms from on the trap square), thus solving your quandry.

Still, there are some cases where it would make sense to opt for a tool kit disarm in any rule set when the Dwarf isn't available:
  • The Heroes must return the way they came past a pit trap. If a pit trap is first removed, it won't have to be jumped twice in case the Heroes wish to return through the same route. One removal roll can avoid all that extra risk.
  • The Heroes must press on or return past a falling block. If a falling block trap is disarmed, it won't block the way and possibly seperate the Heroes, or it won't cut off a return route.
  • One or more Heroes is low on Body Points that you don't want the trap to kill (this could be the Dwarf.) A Hero with more Body Points can attempt the removal, either safely suffering 1 BP extra damage or removing the trap for his threatened comrade(s).
I imagine a tool kit has never been called for as the Dwarf has always been there for the job. If you wanna see a tool kit used, you'll likely need to get the Dwarf on 1 BP or create Quest conditions that include the first two points above. That means seperating the trap-nullifying Dwarf somehow. Dual objectives with a timer would split the Heroes. So would a teleport trap or two--those can't be found or removed.
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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby whitebeard » Thursday October 8th, 2015 8:50pm

Decipher wrote:We play the NA rules like normal unless we have our home made rogue character playing which has the ability to automatically disarm the "known unsprung" trap, which makes the tool kit useless. But if the dwarf is dead and no rogue playing, the tool kit comes into play.

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Recommendation:
The "backstab" should only be allowed as a first attack when the monster has never "seen" this hero (e.g. around a corner not behind another player) and the player can get there in one turn and attack.


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby Decipher » Friday October 9th, 2015 4:50am

in my opinion, I believe the tool kit is simply a backup thing. Just in case the Dwarf goes down, the remaining three have a way to disarm traps. Nothing more, nothing less.

And could I have made that stupid Rogue card any bigger? Sheesh! :roll:


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby lucasdp » Tuesday November 24th, 2015 4:36pm

Not sure if I should start a new thread for this, but we seem to be discussing house rules for traps as well as the tool kit here, so...
I'm thinking of a way to make the pit traps more effective. In my last game, the barbarian fell into a pit trap and the new players asked what happens then.
"You lose a body point and you get out on your next turn."
"Oh. That's it?"
So, I think I'm going to try what I lovingly refer to as "the Monopoly jail rule." After falling in a pit, you have to roll doubles to leave the pit trap on your next two turns; on the third turn, you may leave the pit regardless of what you roll.

And this ties back to the original topic because: if the traps are more deadly, the tool kit is more useful. :geek: :lol:


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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby knightkrawler » Tuesday November 24th, 2015 5:52pm

That is not a bade idea at all, dude. And the 3 round limit weighs it all down nicely.
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Re: Why buy the tool kit?

Postby cornixt » Wednesday November 25th, 2015 10:50am

Unless there is some reason for the crew to hurry, it wouldn't have much effect. Everyone will just wait for him to climb out.


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