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Borin's Armor clarification

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from HeroQuest Game Systems.

Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Kurgan » Monday August 2nd, 2021 5:45pm

The 2nd edition EU clarified that Equipment is not limited by the number of cards. However the Japanese version specifically DOES limit them by cards (and specifically lets you sell stuff back at half price, a rule that wasn't clarified until the NA expansions), and aside from it being silently implied in the 1st EU edition, this is the only one to actually do so. The official PC game limited each hero to own each item once (they could also have one copy of each artifact, in theory, if you replayed quests to acquire them all... it was weirdly simplified like that!).

The Remake will have spares of several Equipment cards, but will not limit the number that can be purchased to the physical cards, just like the last NA/EU editions.

Good point about the Wand of Recall, though without any spells (Spell Scrolls were only introduced in the NA versions of the quest packs), it would have been little use to those non-magic characters.

I use the NA rules as the base and have a lot of homebrews (like a lot of people) which, if possible I like to borrow from official versions of the game where possible, whenever it fits.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Daedalus » Thursday August 12th, 2021 2:52am

Karlssonontheroof wrote:I think the rules lawyers who are slavishly following the Borin's armour text should note that is does not state that you cannot combine it with a helmet, a shield, chainmail or even plate mail.

This is perhaps not an oversight, as the artefact is not in fact an armour item. So by specifically only giving a Hero 4 defend dice, this gives the artefact a limit so it wont stack defend dice with any other items (even a shield), and give the hero potential in the later game to progress by buying enough armour to supersede it.
*With an added bonus of preserving game balance in the early game (no invincible Hero) and less of of difference if losing the item in that dreaded trap in RotWL.

If you are allowing Borins to be combined with a helmet, using the rules as written you should also allow it to be combined with chainmail (and plate mail) giving a wearer of Borin's a max defend dice total of 7 or 8. This is of course ridiculous,


I personally would give an exception to this and allow Borins to be combined with a shield and categorise the artefact as an armour (basically making it a chain mail + helmet). This is still a mighty good find (value 625 gold).

I think the declaration, ". . . the artefact is not in fact an armour item," is mistaken. Perhaps you meant to say Borin's Armour is not in fact armor equipment? The term item refers to a broader.catagory including both equipment and Quest treasure (in addition to potions, keys, etc.)

Borin's Armour wrote:Borin's Armour allows you to roll four combat dice in defence.
ARMOUR

The ARMOUR keyword at the bottom of this Quest treasure card is the same kwyword used on equipment cards. How to apply the WEAPON and ARMOUR keywords is only discussed on p.15 under the Equipment cards section of.the Rules of Play, so Quest treasure cards are governed by the same rules.

The UK Rules of Play, p.15 wrote: Equipment cards
These cards improve the characters' abilities. When using a weapon Equipment card the character player rolls the number of dice shown for that weapon, instead of the number of dice shown on his character board for Attack.
The armour Equipment cards are used in the same way. However, some cards like the shield and helmet cards, allow you to roll an extra die. This is an extra die in addition to those you normally roll. If, for example, you had the chainmail card and the shield card you would roll a total of four combat dice in defence. You may not wear more than one type of body armour at one time.

The keyword ARMOUR at the bottom of the Borin's Armour card thus allows the extra dice from a shield and helmet while prohibiting other body armor.
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Thursday August 12th, 2021 4:51am

wallydubbs wrote:For some in the European game, given the number of characters, weapons and armor, some play that the cards are the only pieces of equipment the heroes can buy, as in only one hero can wield the battle axe, only 2 helmets can be bought, the card goes to the hero that bought it, so on and so forth. And it's still a matter of conjecture to some whether this is the way it was meant to be played or not. So in regards to Borin's Armor being 4 defense dice, instead of +2 defense, some can assume this encapsulates the helmet too.
This is not the way I view it, though, i play it by the North American rules.

Hi, as far as I know, in my opinion the EU rulebooks are quite clear about this topic. Both 1989 & 1990 UK versions of the rule book limit the number of items that can be bought according to the number of available equipment cards. They indicates that 'any players wishing to buy equipment should take the card they want' so, I understand it means that if there are not enough available cards of such item to be taken, the player cannot buy it. I think this is the correct way to play under EU rules environment, otherwise that sentence in the UK rules had not have sense to be written in such explicit way. In addition, remember that first 1989 EU version of the game included two cards for the shield and also two for the the helmet so, if limiting the number of available items in the shop was not the idea of the original creators of the game, only one card per item should have been included in the box, no more would have been needed, but was not the case. I know that the number of item cards changed in the 1990 EU version due to the addition of new items and, in fact reducing the number of shield and helmet cards to only one, BUT the rules text about the player should take the item card when buying remained in 1990 as in previous version so, again I think it is quite clear the intention of the designers to limit the number of items than can be bought in EU versions. HOWEVER, Adventure Desing Kit booklet explains at its last page that the new Charater Sheet may be used to writte down equipment if no spare cards are available... so it goes in contrast versus what is said in the rule book. Then, in this case the Evil Wizard will need to choose how to deal with this. Limiting the number of available items will ve a challenge for players but NA version of the game allows to buy with no limit and it uses to be the better game version so, it depends.

UK rules 1989:
Screenshot_20210729-154732_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

UK rules 1990:
Screenshot_20210729-154616_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Anderas » Thursday August 12th, 2021 5:00am

That said, you can always have 2, 3, 4 copies of the game.
Ok, today it is more difficult but at the time it was not.

But today it is easy to print your own equipment card stack.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Thursday August 12th, 2021 5:17am

Anderas wrote:That said, you can always have 2, 3, 4 copies of the game.
Ok, today it is more difficult but at the time it was not.

But today it is easy to print your own equipment card stack.

Yeah, of course we can discuss if having only 1 shield and 1 helmet at the shop adds too difficulty to the EU game or not and more cards would be needed. My feeling is that 2 items for each one as in 1989 version is quite balanced but that's another topic I think.
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Saturday September 4th, 2021 10:19am

Hi, I don't know if this has been already discussed in the Inn but I have noticed that the Character Sheet example shown in the back of the Adventure Design Kit's box shows a Barbarian called Harandar who is equiped with Borin's Armour + Helmet... see picture below:

Adventure_Design_Kit_UK_box_back_character_sheet_detail.jpg

I think this Character Sheet is not just a random example since it seems to have been filled by somebody who knows well the game: notice that it also says that this character has completed the 'The Stone Hunter' quest, the one were heroes could find the Borin's Armour so, everything matches on the sheet.

I have also checked the Spanish version of this box and, as the UK one, it indicates the character also wears a 'Yelmo' with the 'Armadura de Borin'.
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Kurgan » Saturday September 4th, 2021 11:03am

Interesting stuff! That may have been the intention of the original edition to put a hard limit of availability based on cards and with the Japanese edition this is clearly the case, but the others it was not, so rules can change across editions. I personally think it's a bit goofy that there's only two helmets in the whole region, but who knows, gameplay trumps realism.

As for the sheet showing helmet and armor together, that's how we've always played, but it's a nice clue for those wishing to find validation for that interpretation with the EU set! I personally have created a separate card for "Borin's Helmet" which can be added to the armor or worn separately with its own bonus. What the Heroes see there is simply a vision of the fabled set, while the body armor chest covering is really what they acquire with the original artifact card. I treat it as a special version of Plate, really, but that's me.

Played the other way, either Borin's Armor is weaker than Plate (only gives 1 defend die extra, or raises your original defense to 3 if you prefer) but happens to come with a special helmet that adds the additional die (and forces you to throw away your previous helmet). In WOM equipment (not just helmets and swords like the GS chaos spell) can be rusted by chaos sorcerer's, but artifacts ("quest treasures" in EU terminology) are immune, so a special magical helmet there would be protected.

I also never assumed that the "Elven Chainmail" (EQP exclusive; but functionally identical to the NA conception of Borin's Armor) could only be worn by an Elf (it just so happens he's the first and only Hero it is offered to, but nothing says he can't give it away or another can't retrieve it if he dies). That's a whole can of worms relating to the wording of the text in the EQP, where sometimes it says "may only be used/worn by an Elf" while other times it says elf somewhere in the text but doesn't say only he can use it (the first three quests are Elf only, so it makes logical sense even if not meaning to imply exclusive use). Much like the "cannot be used by wizard" being lacking from certain artifacts in the EU, it could be seen as a loophole (or closed loop as the case may be), so you either play it strictly or more loosely.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Thursday September 23rd, 2021 9:01am

Hi everyone,

About allowing or not the use of a helmet combined with Borin's Armour, I decided to re-design my Borin's Armour card picture in order to avoid any confusion during playing.

I just took the original picture from NA card as master design. After that I deleted the original helmet, moved the armour body to the middle of the picture and filled all the missing areas as better as I thought, taking the sticker album pictures as inspiration. I could have directly taken from the album a picture of the armour but I prefered to re-use the original card's one in order to keep as much as posible the original style.

Here I share with you the result if you also want to use it in your dungeoning sessions:

Borins_Armor_picture_improvement_by_HispaZargon.jpg
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Daedalus » Friday September 24th, 2021 2:14am

I like what you've done with the card--looks great!
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby wallydubbs » Friday September 24th, 2021 9:44am

Daedalus wrote:I like what you've done with the card--looks great!

Agreed, Kudos to HispaZargon!
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