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Chests? How do they work?

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby wallydubbs » November 22nd, 2023, 11:43 am

Kurgan wrote:According to Avalon Bill, Courage only lasts for one attack in the remake edition.

The Line of Sight thing becomes a little more confusing this way. Before I would have read it like EU 2nd edition, where the spell only applies as soon as you start attacking (and continues until there are no more monsters left you can "see," meaning they are dead or ran out of the room/corridor). But you could cast it on someone and they would wander through the quest with the spell dormant until they began to attack THEN you have to worry about it running out because the monsters go away.

Now if the Spell is cast on someone and there are no monsters around it is wasted. Or if the spell is cast, but before he gets his attack in, those monsters run away. Otherwise AH's interpretation is that it's like 1st edition (single attack) but now with more opportunities for it to be wasted.


Yeah, I had my fiancee read it over and give me her opinion. She's not an expert player so it took me by surprise when she pointed out something I hadn't noticed. In this new edition Courage uses the singular form of "Monster", not monsters. "The spell is broken when the hero can no longer see the monster." This would insinuate a single attack. But it also makes the spell much less effective.


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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Kurgan » November 22nd, 2023, 4:35 pm

It's also impossible to use when facing John Cena...


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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Kurgan » November 22nd, 2023, 4:40 pm

wallydubbs wrote:Yeah, I had my fiancee read it over and give me her opinion. She's not an expert player so it took me by surprise when she pointed out something I hadn't noticed. In this new edition Courage uses the singular form of "Monster", not monsters. "The spell is broken when the hero can no longer see the monster." This would insinuate a single attack. But it also makes the spell much less effective.


:?: Which edition do you have? (some changes were made in the Jan '22 slim box) In my Haslab version it says "a Monster" (not "THE monster") meaning it isn't explicitly referring to a singular opponent or single attack. I could imagine if they were trying to clarify how it stacks with "Heroic Brew" (which gives you two attacks... but only one of the attacks would have the bonus dice).

Anyway...
When I compare this to the Bard "bonus defense" issue... where they meant one thing and wrote another, I come to the opposite conclusion, because Doug Hopkins, Avalon Bill, Encarmine, etc. didn't make the original HeroQuest. Their remake is explicitly based upon the 1990 NA edition. I would default to those rules as written unless changed. Here they are coming in after the fact with a digital update saying yeah we meant something else other than the plain reading of the card.

Like the Crossbow thing, I can understand if that's what they wanted, but it's inferior to the earlier reading (I chalk up the Crossbow thing to a simple oversight but I can't prove it, so I could imagine like the Mentor on the Zargon screen thing, it was just something they presented poorly), so I'm not going to follow it, even if it's explicitly what they meant (while the Bard thing I can respect more because it was their original creation and there's proof they had something else in mind in the earlier edition and you can understand they goofed up in the wording).

If we were playing 1st edition and it's only supposed to be one boosted attack, fine, let's do that. But then let's also go back to Rock Skin being two dice for one defense, and let's go back to finding Treasure in corridors, not needing LOS for spells on targets in the same room, 2 MP bonus for Talisman of Lore, Shortsword hits diagonally, etc.

Rock Skin and Courage are just use USEFUL spells, and they worked so well in 2nd edition, and since the NA edition didn't contradict that earlier interpretation, I was fine with it in both cases. So it feels now like nerfing it. The Bard clarification makes him stronger and the old interpretation made less sense strategically even though it was the natural plain reading of the text like offering you a stronger weapon that was cheaper than a weaker one but wanting you to choose the worse option.

The whole chest thing, like so many other things in the game, for me comes down to how it affects the play experience. If it encourages discovering, adds to the suspense, and foster more of a "role play" thing that people like, that's great, those are all wonderful things that can enhance the experience. Does it make the game more challenging? To me it only makes the game longer. In a few instances where normal searching rules are not allowed it makes sense as a work-around. I could see the situation where opening a chest in the midst of battle might adhere to that. I can understand if a person played it a certain way in childhood and feel nostalgic about that method, that goes a long way! :redheart:

As Zargon I'd set the general rule and expectation for the players ahead of time (there will always be individual quests that weak various rules for that session). I don't see as much utility in offering that chests need to be opened like a door (instead of saying Treasure search covers the entire room, with the furniture just serving as a "clue" there may be special treasure in this are) but as always, your table, your rules. |_P


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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » November 25th, 2023, 4:05 am

Kurgan wrote:Searching for Traps in 1st/2nd edition of HeroQuest actually removes the Furniture Traps automatically, right?


Correct

The OP was asking about how the rules for chests work and from his bio details it would appear that he is playing the European edition rather than the North American edition, so my answer was based on that version of the game. I wasn't borrowing things from the Japanese edition, suggesting changes to the NA/Remake edition or referring to house rules, I was just explaining how chests work in the original game. Also your charge that handling chests through opening them makes the game longer doesn't really stand up for me, as opening chests is a free action so doesn't add anything to the game time.
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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Kurgan » November 29th, 2023, 1:29 pm

That's the nature of Ye Olde Inn. We pick up conversations from a decade ago as if they started only hours ago. You and I started talking on page 5 of this 7 page thread. If I had a dime for the number of times I responded directly to the OP without reading what happened in between, or got caught up in a side conversation, I'd have a few dimes!

"Saving time" is like this... you can enter a room (or start your turn just inside a room) and search for treasure. Boom, you've found all the treasure your character can possibly find in that single action. Or you can say that you're required to use up your movement to go up to a specific piece of furniture and use a "free action" to open it, and then I suppose also search for treasure and find a card as well? The reasoning behind allowing a single hero to search a room multiple times in the '92 draft notes seems to have been based around wanting to drag out the suspense where a solo hero has to find a specific item. To me it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. If you want it to work that way, you easily can. But I think thus far we've only established that if you're playing EU 2nd edition and it's "The Trial" or its the Japanese edition, then that's of course how you do things (putting aside number of searches per hero per room which would be less in those versions).

Otherwise it literally is exactly as he stated... a treasure chest is just meant as a clue or marker that there is probably some "special" treasure in this particular room (or else a trap to catch people looking for that special treasure, so beware!) and the rare unmarked chests are obvious designer errors. I don't have a problem with that (and I mark the unmarked chests!). If that's unsatisfying to some, they can toy with it how they like. Some have made every piece of furniture interactive in their games.
Last edited by Kurgan on December 9th, 2023, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » December 9th, 2023, 4:06 am

My comment wasn't intended as a criticism of tangential conversations that only loosely relate to the OP as they can be interesting (and I am just as guilty of this as anyone else). I was just pointing out that comments like the one below I find unhelpful and potentially confusing as opening chests with monsters present is only an option in the EU version of the game and the "enforced treasure sharing" is a rule only in the NA version so your criticism isn't valid for either EU or NA versions.

Kurgan wrote:Why would anyone want to open a chest, with monsters present? (without them I guess they're in a hurry to get the treasure, for fear another hero will "take it first" despite the rules stating large rewards should be divided equally, and stuff intended for one hero only will go to that character anyway)


Kurgan wrote:"Saving time" is like this... you can enter a room (or start your turn just inside a room) and search for treasure. Boom, you've found all the treasure your character can possibly find in that single action. Or you can say that you're required to use up your movement to go up to a specific piece of furniture and use a "free action" to open it, and then I suppose also search for treasure and find a card as well?


If you enter a room (using your movement) and then search for treasure (using your action) then you have found all the treasure your character can possibly find and have used your full turn (not just action, as you had to move into the room in the first place, even if you had already moved into the room on your previous turn it is still a move and an action)

If, under the open chest rule, you enter a room (using your movement) and stop adjacent to a chest, then you can open it and take the treasure as a free action and then search for treasure (using your action) then you have found all the treasure your character can possibly find and have used your full turn.

So for me the 2 are equivalent in terms of time. I acknowledge that there is the possibility that more movement may be required to reach the chest in certain situations (depending on starting position, dice roll, chest position, entry and exit points from the room etc) but if you assume that is 50% of the time and that quests typically have 1-2 chests, then you are probably talking about an average of 1 additional turn of movement for a single character across the whole game, which to me is not a significant increase.

Kurgan wrote:But I think thus far we've only established that if you're playing EU 2nd edition and it's "The Trial".


I don't agree, I think we have established that this is the rule for EU 1st edition, and must still be the rule for 2nd edition under "The Trial" and here is nothing that I can find anywhere that suggests that rule doesn't continue to be in play for the rest of the 2nd edition quests.

As I have stated previously if your position is that the opening chests rules does NOT apply in 2nd edition (beyond The Trial) then please do quote the relevant part of the 2nd edition rules that tell you how you are supposed to handle chests outside of this, as I don't see anything in the 2nd edition that suggests for Q2 onwards a search for treasure includes getting the contents of a chest, and has been pointed out previously, the design of said quests with traps being placed next to treasure chests in some instances would suggest the Quest designers agree.

Zenithfleet made an excellent post on this topic with examples under the How Treasure chests work in the EU rules (LONG) topic.
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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Kurgan » December 9th, 2023, 5:09 pm

I could see the value in this interpretation in making it more competitive, saying one hero could find more treasure than the others by getting there first (because why would that hero not take advantage if he could get two treasures instead of one?). I just took it as a special treasure room holds one treasure only for the EU players. For the NA players it holds up to four, with the first lucky searcher getting the special one (if any). There is appeal in each method, and then we have the Japanese edition that more closely matches the way some prefer to play. Good point that dividing up found treasures isn't required (or even suggested) in the EU editions.

As for digging up more proof text quotations think I've already explained the reasons why I believe what I do. There's nothing wrong with the way I play, or interpret the rules (any version), so you can think whatever you like about it. I could go on about comparing the way The Trial (2nd edition) refers to treasure chests vs. how the other quests do, and the lack of any explicit acknowledgement in the rules of play of this common way some choose to actually act that out (extra treasure inside chests, adjacent required).

My philosophy for HeroQuest is not that one has to pour over a vast pile of texts and imagine how it all fits together in some well blended system like certain other games are meant to be. Instead you have the basic rules and then each quest is like a blank slate, experiencing each one as you come upon it. Yes, I know someone will say that the EU rules don't explicitly number the quests and require they be played in order at first, but clearly the first quest is meant to be the beginning and they build upon each other. This is why questions that arise for earlier quests based on later ones are much more academic than required for the way most people will play.

It may be interesting to imagine what the designers wanted to do, vs. what they actually did (I am certainly interested in that, hence many innumerable posts about the draft notes for later expansions). What one player considers best or most fun, another finds tedious, boring, or stupid (and there's a lot of weight given to the nostalgia of how one used to play with friends or family). You and I don't play the way the designers "intended," instead we play the way we want to, and draw freely from various sources including our subjective imagination. Of course you could say the game changed hands across many teams of designers and if you ask them today they would both hand you the remake rules as their intention but also your ability to tweak and change the rules as also their intention. We can't force anyone to embrace any particular interpretation except as the GM at our own table.

Putting a trap tile next to a treasure chest (rather than making it a furniture trap) to me is simply an error (the most egregious examples are in the NA edition of Lair of the Orc Warlord and BQP's Trial by Ice). It might have been a holdover from some other rule interpretation, but mistakes happen. If some designer diary comes up showing this was a remnant of an older unpublished rule mechanic, that would be interesting, but players have the final say whether to use (or not use) such cutting room floor and draft examples.

It's been interesting learning your opinion, but I'm done arguing about this particular mechanic.


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Re: Chests? How do they work?

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » December 10th, 2023, 4:05 am

You have and continue to repeat the claim liberally that anyone playing EU edition and walking up to chests to open them are using house rules based on nostalgia rather than the official rules, but whenever I, or anyone else, challenges that claim and asks you where is the evidence to back up the claim that the handling of chests rules change in the EU 2nd edition from "opening chests from an adjacent square" used in the Trial (and the first edition) to "treasure in chests being found and recovered as part of a search for treasure" (as per the NA rules) for the quests beyond the The Trial then you state that you have already explained it and don't want to talk about it anymore...and my apologies if I have missed that explanation, which is possible across the many years and many threads, but I genuinely can't find it anywhere.

Incidentally p14 of the 2nd edition rulebook states

Once you have played through "The Trial" you are ready to undertake the other Quests. They should be played through in the order they appear in the Quest Book


I have always taken that to mean officially they should be played in order whether they are actually numbered or not.
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:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

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