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Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby Big Bene » September 1st, 2011, 3:42 pm

Daedalus wrote:While I like fixed movement to speed play and eliminate wasted turns due to poor rolls, I don't like giving up on the merits of rolling movement dice...
... movement and random movement (fixed move-4 + 1d6) should be recorded on his character sheet in the Move section.


You are right in principle, but you put it way to difficult.
Same thing, more simple:

- The heroes' moves are determined by 1d6+X.
- X is a movement value individual to each hero.
- If the player wants, he can use a fixed value of 3 instead of the die roll (he may decide this every turn).
That's all.

I'd use 3 for the fixed value rather than your 4, because 4 is already relatively high on a d6, so there is little motivation to roll the die at all. Of course, you might choose 4 to prevent the players from rolling, if this is what you want.
Have a look ;)


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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby torilen » September 2nd, 2011, 12:37 pm

Bene - I like that idea the best of those I've seen so far. Gives them the option to roll if they like that,
or the option to not roll - and they can choose each turn. Nice.

I agree with the optional fixed 3 = x. That's half of a 1d6 roll...not too bad, not real great.


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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby Daedalus » September 3rd, 2011, 7:52 pm

Your description of my rule looks better- thanks. Now only a random move value needs to be recorded on a Hero's character sheet, X +1d6 (my preference is to list the random die afterwards). Your simplified version of random and fixed movement is simple, and that should make it appealing to more players.

However, I'm sticking with a fixed move value of X +4, instead. I'm not looking to motivate or discourage choices of random rolls by assigning a 3 or 4. My inclusion of random rolls is mandatory in order to reflect the tension and chaos of combat mixed with movement, while still fitting such rolls in with existing fixed-movement standards. I feel all other cases benefit by eliminating dice-rolling with a fixed move.

This being my aim and again using the Wizard fixed move of 8 as an example, setting fixed movement at 4 +4 instead of 5 +3 results in the following roll distribution:

    1 ..... a minimum, guaranteed move of at least 5, which is the equivalent of a lesser fixed-move
    2-3 ... random moves of 6 or 7, which are respectively 2 or 1 squares less than the fixed move of 8
    4 ..... a random move of 8, equal to the fixed-move value
    5-6 ... random moves of 9 or 10, which are respectively 1 or 2 squares more than the fixed move of 8

As any move of 5 squares or less is defaulted to as a fixed move regardless of attacking, only moves of 6 to 10 squares need to be checked-for using random movement. Those random results are evenly balanced around the die result of a 4.

Another reason I'm using X +4 is illustrated by comparing my slowest random movement possible to what already exists in the rules, a Hero wearing Plate Mail. Using X +4, an Elf wearing Plate Mail (fixed move of 4) has a random move of 0 +1d6, equal to the 1 red die of movement already allowed in the Armory description. Using X +3 would bump his movement to 1 +1d6 in order to achieve the same fixed movement of 4. In my opinion, affording this 1 square bonus to all random movement for Heroes is less desirable than assigning a 4 result for fixed movement. The effect is that more predictable, non-combat situations generally result in a Hero moving a bit better than in those involving monsters that actively oppose him. That makes sense to me.
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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby Daedalus » September 3rd, 2011, 8:44 pm

Big Bene wrote:You are right in principle, but you put it way to difficult.
Same thing, more simple:

- The heroes' moves are determined by 1d6+X.
- X is a movement value individual to each hero.
- If the player wants, he can use a fixed value of 3 instead of the die roll (he may decide this every turn).
That's all.


Inspired by Big Bene's simplicity, here's my condensed attempt at satisfying my originally stated aims:


When a Hero moves and attacks or attacks and moves in the same turn, use these values for random movement:

    Barbarian ... 5 +1d6
    Dwarf ....... 3 +1d6
    Elf ........... 4 +1d6
    Wizard ...... 4 +1d6
All other movement is fixed. In such cases, substitute a default value of 4 for the die roll.

Fixed movement may also be used if a monster's attack is nullified by a spell, such as Sleep or Tempest.
Swift Wind now adds 2 dice of movement, or 1 die if Plate Mail is worn.


The following penalties apply to Hero movement:

    Chain Mail, Borin's Armor ........ -2 squares of movement*
    Plate Mail .......................... -4 squares of movement*
* The Dwarf reduces armor penalties by half.
Last edited by Daedalus on September 6th, 2011, 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby sadkitchen » September 3rd, 2011, 9:45 pm

Barbarian ... 5 +1d6

Dwarf ....... 3 +1d6

Elf ........... 4 +1d6

Wizard ...... 4 +1d6


I know that this was probably explained somewhere else but why does the Barbarian move better than the Elf? Possibly have Barb at +4 and Elf at +5 but have the elf get an extra -1 for armor as it impedes him more than other players or something like that.

Side note: Daedalus, your explanations are always so well thought out and well presented. Bravo! Do you have them all written down somewhere or are you naturally better at presenting your ideas than I am?

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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby Big Bene » September 4th, 2011, 4:02 am

@Sadkitchen
Why shouldn't the barbarian be faster than the elf? He's taller. Moreover, he's a meele fighter, fitted best for close-up combat, so he would naturally rush forward, whereas the elf would move more carefully.

@ Daedalus:
As for the fixed value beeing 3 or 4 - Your aim, as I understand it now, is to model the movement values of the original rules as close as possible, which is a good thing.
I, on the other hand, only aimed for a practicable and enjoyable movement rule without taking the original values into account whatsoever.

I don't want to make a point here, I actually like your approach, but just to explain my reasoning:
The player can choose when to roll. Now a player wants to get his hero somewhere he can reach with his fixed X+4 movement. Fine - he will do so. Now he wants to get to a point he can only reach at X + 5 or 6. Now he could roll a die, but the odds are 50% that he will actually roll less than 4, with a chance of only 33% to really take an advantage from the roll. He will not roll - never. It would just be stupid.
Have a look ;)


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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby sadkitchen » September 4th, 2011, 6:06 pm

@Ethica
With your fixed move of 7, what happens if a hero wears plate mail? Down to 3 or 4 I'm guessing, but I am just trying to get an accurate picture.

@Big Bene
Why shouldn't the barbarian be faster than the elf? He's taller. Moreover, he's a meele fighter, fitted best for close-up combat, so he would naturally rush forward, whereas the elf would move more carefully.

Your explanation says how they would use there move, but not why there moves are aligned the way they are. I have always been under the impression that elves are lighter on there feet, and with better reflexes than there human counterpart. This would lead me to give a small bonus to the Elf in squares per turn.
But for balance sake, giving the Barbarian a small boost helps balance out that the Elf is about twice as awesome as him.

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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby Big Bene » September 5th, 2011, 3:13 am

sadkitchen wrote:Your explanation says how they would use there move, but not why there moves are aligned the way they are.

They are not persons, they are game figures. Their movement value as given in the rules simulate how the heroes move in the game world "reality". This can include both physical ability and behavior. Of course, your approach of only fixing the ability and leaving the behavior up to the player is also possible. It would, however, result in the players ignoring "realism" for the most time and move as far possible, giving the elf an unfair advantage.
I figure the elf moving around elegantly and agile, but in a "sneaking" manner, and therefore slower than the warriors.
Have a look ;)


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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby sadkitchen » September 5th, 2011, 9:44 am

Actually thinking about it, the Barbarian should move more than the Elf. (one shouldn't argume on a message board after 2 strait nights of insomnia with 7-8 hours of work after each :) )
If a run rule was to be implemented, I think I would vote for the Elf to get a I'm faster than you bonus.

-SadKitchen

P.S. I have compiled all of our ideas and posted them in the advancement topic that we are turning into a rules compilation topic. Look it up and make sure I got it right :)
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Re: Is 2 red dice for Hero move best?

Postby Daedalus » September 6th, 2011, 2:50 am

sadkitchen wrote:
Barbarian ... 5 +1d6

Dwarf ....... 3 +1d6

Elf ........... 4 +1d6

Wizard ...... 4 +1d6


I know that this was probably explained somewhere else but why does the Barbarian move better than the Elf? Possibly have Barb at +4 and Elf at +5 but have the elf get an extra -1 for armor as it impedes him more than other players or something like that.


About halfway down page 2 of this thread I listed the fixed-moves of the human, elves, and even orcs of the published Quests. It also discussed armor effects. From that I derived the following one post down:

Daedalus wrote:Here are my thoughts on Hero fixed movement-
A 2d6 move works equally well for an unarmored Hero and one armored with Chain Mail, a Helmet, and a Shield (only Plate Mail shows a 1d6 reduction). A fixed Hero move of 7 would approximate this, but won't parallel other fixed moves in the game. Hero moves could instead be worked as follows:

Mail armor slows down fixed movement:

    Chain Mail, Borin's Armor ........ -2 squares of movement
    Plate Mail .......................... -4 squares of movement

The Wizard should have a starting move of 8. Why: The fastest mortal sorcerers and mages have a move of 8, so a fit Wizard Hero should equal this. Also, based off of an average move of 7, an unarmored, not-so-physical Hero should be just a little faster.
The Elf should start out with a move of 8. Why: Elven Archers wear Chain Mail and Elven Warriors wear Chain Mail with a Shield and both have a move of 6. An unarmored Elf Hero should move 2 faster, equal to the penalty for Chain Mail.
The Dwarf should start out with a move of 7. Why: Though sure-footed underground, a Dwarf's shorter stride is still slower than that of a human or elf. To compensate, a Dwarf Hero suffers half the move penalty of Chain Mail (-1) and Plate Mail (-2).
The Barbarian should have a starting move of 9. Why: He's more fit than a Wizard and used to moving quickly since birth. He should be as fast as a Mercenary Swordsman's move of 5 if he is armored similarly with Plate Mail.

-edited

sadkitchen wrote:Side note: Daedalus, your explanations are always so well thought out and well presented. Bravo! Do you have them all written down somewhere or are you naturally better at presenting your ideas than I am?


-SadKitchen[/quote]

Glad to know my obsession is appreciated. I'm not naturally better, because I'm not smart enough to get a handle on things from the get-go. I usually take at least a few days to mull over things, and sometimes I even need to record my posts in a notes section of my browser before posting. I also tend to edit things over the next couple of days. I wouldn't spend so much time on these if I didn't enjoy modifying the game so much. By the way, I just edited my condensed rule above to include some spell effects discussed earlier in the thread.
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