Need for Speed?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The Problem

UK Edition had a Potion of Speed but for reasons I never fully understood, it wasn’t included in the US Edition.

It will allow you to roll twice as many dice as usual the next time you move.

Incidentally, this is exactly the same effect as the UK & US Swift Wind spells.

However, in the US Edition Quest 9: The Last gate from ROTWL states that Kessandria possesses a Potion of Speed with the following effects (interestingly, Kessandria in the UK version, had access to a Swift Wind spell rather than a Potion of Speed so it was a conscious decision to switch to a Potion of Speed for the US version, despite that potion not being in the US version, doh!)

allows her to move 12 squares on the turn that she drinks it

As Kessandria has a base movement value of 6 this could either be interpreted as +6 to her movement or doubling her movement, two options that I refer to as the arithmetic and geometric options respectively.

I’m not a fan of geometric bonuses and/or penalties, doubling or halving something as these effects ramp up rapidly when stacked e.g., from a base value of 2 you can add 2 four times and get to a score of 10, but double it 4 times and you get to 32.

For that reason, I would instinctively prefer the +6 option.

Principle of Ambivalence, (good for a Hero then good for a Monster) +6 works for Heroes or Monsters, but in this example, it is +6 for a Monster, it could at a stretch be +2D6 for a Hero

In the Alchemist’s Shop for ROTWL there appears a Potion of Dexterity, which is pretty much a Potion of Speed by another name

+5 to movement OR automatic success for a jump

This leaves us with a discontinued Potion of Speed with one set of effects, a ‘hidden’ Potion of Speed with possibly a different set of effects and a third Potion of Speed with similar but slightly different effects under a different name

We also need to consider the ‘Swift Wind’ Spell in all of this, both US and UK*, consistently rated as one of, if not the most useless spell in the deck, this is apt for revision, and we would want to keep a distinction between the effects of the two.

*There is also a Japanese version of this spell which is quite different!

Solution Options

New Potion of Speed for HQ US

It will allow you to move 6 extra squares the next time you move and adds one to your roll for jumping

Not present in the treasure deck as I don’t want anyone to have to go to the trouble of printing new cards, but available to purchase in the Alchemists Shop, replacing Potion of Dexterity.

Amendment to the Swift Wind Spell

If you take the general principle that where potion and spell effects are similar, potions represent a short-lived, single turn but powerful boost whereas spells take a slower burn, less powerful but longer lasting effect
E.g., Courage & Potion of Strength, Rock Skin & Potion of Defence/Resilience

So, our Potion of Speed should have a powerful but short-lived effect, +6 or +2 extra movement dice for a single turn fits that bill whereas the Swift Wind would have something like +1 extra movement dice, spell lasts until you carry out an action that is not movement, have to defend yourself or your movement is ended by a trap.

I did consider the Japanese option which is basically a teleport spell but thought it would tread on the toes of Escape Spell and the Escape Ring

Thoughts?

[Kurgan]

I don't have a problem with multiple items having the same effect in the game (especially across expansions) or more than one item having the same name but different effects. The quest notes stuff tells you exactly what it does. So you find Healing potions that restore different numbers of body points, Potions of Restoration and Speed that do different things, etc. it's the responsibility of the GM to explain the effects and the Hero to write their note on the character sheet (and Zargon can remind when they ask).

I also understand the desire to have a single unified system that incorporates everything and standardizes it, but at the same time I think it's unnecessary. I can introduce a pack where the Healing potion restores 5 BP and the Potion of Speed grants you 7 extra squares of movement in a quest and it wouldn't overwrite any of the others and I don't think it would cause any issues. The freedom of new quests is that you don't have to have a new miniature or new card for every new thing, you can just make it up... but I can also understand the desire to incorporate them back in with physical assets, etc. Just sayin' it's not a big deal to me.

[lestodante]

I agree with Kurgan in this. I also don't see any problem at writing special notes in the quest for non standard potions or items. The same happens with special monsters or villains where their stats are written in the questbook and some people is asking a card for that character. EQP is also featuring an Elven Chain Mail which is only described in the quest notes, no card is available for such item (although it may be a mistake and was instead referred to the Elven Bracers).
Right yesterday I was chatting with HispaZargon about special notes in the quest that could make all healing potions being working for half of their power; this could be written in the notes for a harder quest, it doesn't require a card unless we wish to use this kind of potion a lot of time.
We were also discussing about the difference beetween a potion and a spell having the same effects. The potion can be used anytime, even when you reach zero body points, by anyone, while the spell must be cast by a spellcaster during his turn. Anyway, if not available in the alchemist's shop, the potion must be found somewhere, while the spell is available more times (once per quest). Special artifacts can have the same power but limited to a certain number of use (there are many of these in the EQP).

I’m not a fan of geometric bonuses and/or penalties, doubling or halving something as these effects ramp up rapidly when stacked e.g., from a base value of 2 you can add 2 four times and get to a score of 10, but double it 4 times and you get to 32.
For that reason, I would instinctively prefer the +6 option.

I don't see the risk of multiply any of the stats for too long time. Rock Skin could be combined with Potion of Defense, but the potion lasts only one turn.
If you wish to avoid this, use the rule that a player stat can be modified only once per time. So if I use more spells or potions that influence the speed of a hero, they do not sum each others. The last one used is the one that count. This solve all problems about overpowering someone with multiple items usage. Also if I have Rock Skin n the Spell Ring I can't cast it twice on the same hero if the first one is still active. Any other custom spell that could influence the same stat of another spell can be considered one at time, not combined together. It is different for Courage and Rock Skin: I'd permit a cast of the two over the same hero at the same time as they influence two different stats of that hero.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Your are always welcomed and appreciated!

I think you both make a fair point around Quest or Quest Book specific exceptions, but to be clear my objection is NOT to exceptions to the standard rules being made for a specific item, spell, whatever in a particular Quest (or even a whole Quest Book), as you have pointed out if exceptions are explained fully and coherently in that particular Quest or Quest Book then there is no real problem within the context of that Quest or Quest Book, you just follow the rules that apply to that specific item, Quest or Quest Book. Neither was my point related to new or existing cards and other hard copy materials.

My objection is from the point of view of someone creating and wanting to share their own Quests at the present time. There are so many instances where either the 'standard rule' is missing from the rulebook (Effects of Mind Point Zero, Exception around Potion of Restoration saving you from Death by Zero Mind Points, Passing Items rules and so on) or there are so many exceptions that what is standard and what is an exception isn't clear (How many BP does a Healing Potion restore as 'standard' - 2,4,D6 or all? - in the UK edition there is a clear standard that a Healing Potion restores 4BP and there is a Quest specific exception in one instance it is only half-filled so restores 2BP but it isn't clear what the standard is in the US Edition), so there is an ever increasing body of 'standard rules' that you have to add to every single Quest that you make just to ensure that players (including the Gamemaster) know which standard rules you had in mind when you created and play-tested the Quest?

This puts an unnecessary burden, and a continually increasing burden, onto the Quest Creator (or if they don't bother then the Gamemaster whilst he is running the Quest) because you can't just state, as you can in most other games, 'use the standard US rules unless stated otherwise'

You can see this burden for yourselves already in the Official Quest Books by counting how many 'rules' need to be covered at the start of each Quest Book that are not specific to that Quest Book but are just normal rules (like Sharing Treasure, Passing Items), it just grows with every new Quest Book, pages of these rules in the later Quest Books and as these have to be carried over from one Quest Book to the next and then re-edited for publication, you get the errors creeping in where the rule is included but is worded differently and takes on a whole new meaning, did they mean to just cut and paste that or was the change intentional, is the different rule a special exception for this particular Quest Book, or a conscious decision to improve the existing rule across the board, or just a typo!

The way that we learn (remember and recall) is basically by using a single 'memory slot' to identify and store the general rule or pattern that applies in the bulk of cases (efficiency) and then we learn the exceptions using another 'memory slot' for each exception. The more exceptions the harder it is to learn, remember and recall that information, so a clear standard greatly simplifies the in-game experience, the frequent stuff is consistent and after a few Quests, you just remember it. I lose count of how many times in these discussions we all have to go back to the rule book or the Quest Book to rediscover what the actual rules and wordings are we can't remember ourselves which rules are in play in which Quest Book (and that is for people with in some cases decades of experience!) it really doesn't have to be so complicated for such a simple game.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Just replied to another topic How are Mind Points restored in classic HeroQuest? and realised that the situation described is a great 'live' example that quite neatly illustrates several of the points that I have made above

wallydubbs has, quite reasonably attempted to beef up the Game System by giving the Witch Lord a spell from the Frozen Horror Quest Book.

Lifting and shifting a single Chaos/Dread spell from one Quest Book to another should be a fairly simple process, after all he isn't homebrewing in the full sense of making something new, or trying to create a whole new Quest, just a simple lift and shift of existing material from the same Edition.

To follow this logic through (and I'm not suggesting my interpretation is the only valid one) I initially dug out ATOH because I confused 'Mind Freeze' from Frozen Horror with 'Mind Lock' from ATOH, two spells with very similar names, both refer to 'freezing the mind of a Hero' in the description but are in fact completely different in effect, the former being a lose Mind Points spell, the other being a 'paralysis' type spell – my mistake.

Whilst attempting to retrieve the wrong spell from the Quest Book (ATOH spells are not on spell cards) I noticed the rule around killing spell casters ends any ongoing effects of their spells (no way of knowing whether that rule is a special exception intended to be applicable within ATOH Quest Book or whether that is intended as an addition to / improvement of the standard spell rules) - assuming the latter raises the possibility that the Shock effects caused by that spell could be ended by the death of the spell caster - although I suspect in this instance that isn't the correct interpretation as his Mind Points would still be zero

I then went to the correct Quest Book ‘Frozen Horror’ to retrieve the spell effects for 'Mind Freeze' spell (turns out Frozen Horror spells are on the cards not in the Quest Book like the ‘Game System’ but not like ATOH)

Mind Freeze

This spell ravages the mind of any Hero. The Hero rolls 1 combat die for every Mind Point he possessed before the attack. If 1 or more white shields are rolled, the Hero has 1 Mind Point left. If no white Shields are rolled, the Hero has been reduced to zero Mind Points and goes into "Shock"

Note: This spell has weird effects in that in a single roll it reduces you to either 1 or 0 Mind Points irrespective to how many Mind Points you had at the point the spell was cast, yet another example of inconsistent rules as this mechanism is different to any appearing elsewhere in that it doesn’t reduce your Mind Point by an amount but to an amount!

Whilst in the Frozen Horror Quest Book I noticed the rule that suggests that the Talisman of Lore (an artefact from the Game System) should increase your starting rather than your current Mind Points. No indication whether this is a special exception to the existing Talisman of Lore rules applicable only to the Frozen Horror Quest Book or is a change / improvement / clarification to the Game System Quest Book or indeed all Quest Books – i.e. a ‘standard’ rule?

I also noticed that the shock effects described in Frozen Horror don’t explain which spell effects are applicable to those in a state of ‘shock’ – missing/incomplete rules - I need to check whether that has been 'fixed' in the new prelude quest along with the 'getting out of shock' fix.

I had to then dig out the Game System artefact card for the Talisman of Lore to check that text and whilst I was there the Elixir of Life to double-check that did indeed refer specifically to 'Dead Heroes' as I recalled.

Irrespective whether you agree with my interpretation of wallydubbs’s scenario or not, should it really be that much effort to just lift and shift a Chaos/Dread spell from one expansion to another within the same edition?

How can a Gamemaster, during a game be expected to work through this and come to a consistent and valid response, on the fly, without interrupting the flow of the game unless he has an eidetic memory and a degree in rules lawyering!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

To put the question another way, if you were playing a fan-made Quest based on the US edition of the game, and a Hero found:

a) a Broadsword
b) a Potion of Defence
c) a Potion of Speed

What would you anticipate the effects were of using each of these items?

[Kurgan]

I don't really think the Elven Chainmail's inclusion in EQP was a mistake at all... it was in the early drafts. I actually disagree with Phoenix's editorial insertion of the Elven Bracers here, not because I don't think it was good to include them (the "mistake" is not including this useful artifact at all anywhere in the pack, officially!). Yes, the card could be but into a homebrew quest, but it seems more natural that the Bracers would be found in one of the many unmarked treasure chests (many heavily guarded ones appear... note that the similar Amulet of the North artifact is found rather late in the Barbarian Quest Pack). Giving the Bracers as a reward certainly benefits the Elf player and as that player I would not look down on that if I was the recipient of it! But if it's going to be a reward for completing a quest, I think it should be given after the third solo quest. Under the EU rules you'd be a champion and be rewarded 500 extra gold as well (1st edition) but this is the NA so it would be nice to have. So I'd rather have both than have to choose which one (though making it a duo instead of solo series of 3 quests gives a nice excuse to gave each Elf a different elven artifact as a reward, but that's a personal homebrew choice).

Potions of Speed are great for escapes but also for players that are annoyed by limitations put on them by carrying heavy chests or wearing heavy armor, so I'm in favor of making them easier to obtain. Making you buy them in the Remake is a compromise, I personally think putting them back in the Treasure Deck (alongside Holy Water) even better, so I've printed off my own extra cards to make that a reality.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Elven Chainmail is basically the same thing as Borin’s Armour so for me Artefacts have to be unique so I’m not a fan of this, the fact that it was only half-implemented, is just the excuse I need to ignore it!

In my HeroQuest Gold house rules I have already made the following changes, to correct/align all this speed.

+ Potion of Speed (+6 Move, +1 jump) either in Treasure Deck or Alchemists Shop – either way drop Potion of Dexterity

+ Rabbit Boots (rename to Boots of Speed, reroll 1 move dice per turn, +1 Jump)

+ Plate Mail (scrap -D6 move, -1 to jump and hang tests)

+ Swift Wind (teleport to any already discovered square, as per Japanese edition)

The one area that probably fits in with all of this, that I haven’t yet finalised, even in draft form, is the often-mentioned house rule around ‘taking a fixed movement instead of rolling the dice in certain scenarios’ and/or ‘be able to sacrifice your action on a turn for extra movement’ the latter often being referred to as taking a Dash or Rush action.

I’m not a fan of the ‘taking a fixed movement instead of rolling the dice in certain scenarios’ type of house rule, for me it has the potential to break the ‘low roll spoils your plans and forces you to improvise’ mechanism inherent in Heroes using variable movement and to avoid that many who use this house rule specify that it cannot be used when monsters are present, but in HeroQuest it is easy to exploit that protection. No monsters on the board, Barbarian choose to ‘take 10’ (or whatever the fixed value is) before he kicks open the door that he is next to, revealing Monsters, to dodge the possibility of getting a low roll when facing the monsters that he was expecting to be in the room.

I much prefer the sacrifice your action to get a movement boost as even if you use that to reach a monster that you couldn’t otherwise do, maybe due to a low roll, having used your action, you can’t attack the monster, so it still gets the benefit of the first attack.

The only reason why I haven’t implemented this house rule yet, is that I have a principle of ‘if its good for the goose its good for the gander’ (or the Principle of Ambivalence) which means that, unless there is a good reason to make an exception, everything that applies to Heroes applies equally to Monsters, so in this instance I’m not sure which of the following I prefer.

1. [Variable] Hero/Monster takes a ‘rush’ (or dash) action, allowing him to roll a Red Die and move up to that many extra squares.

2. [Variable Hero, Fixed Monster] Hero takes a ‘rush’ (or dash) action, allowing him to roll a Red Die and move up to that many extra squares. For Monsters they can do the same, but the number of squares is fixed to 3.

3. [Variable Hero, Proportionate Monster] Hero takes a ‘rush’ (or dash) action, allowing him to roll a Red Die and move up to that many extra squares. For Monsters they can do the same, but the maximum number of squares is fixed to half of their Movement Square value (rounded up or down?).

4. [Fixed] Hero/Monster takes a ‘rush’ (or dash) action, allowing them to move up to 3 extra squares

5. [Proportionate] Hero/Monster takes a ‘rush’ (or dash) action, allowing them to move up to a number of extra squares equivalent to half of their Movement Square (for Heroes that would be D6)