Question about wandering monster

[mcapone888]

Not sure if there is a specific room for rule clarifications, but here goes. We are playing the 2021 version of HeroQuest (core game only). When an adventurer searches for treasure and pulls a card they can get a wandering monster. The wandering monster card clearly states to put the card back in to the deck at the bottom. The rulebook does not mention what to do with the card after it is pulled. So we play it as the card says and put the wandering monster card back in the bottom of the deck. However, some players say you should put the wandering monster card back in the deck and then shuffle the deck. Is this a rule from 1989, or maybe a house rule? I remember reading about this somewhere, but I checked the rulebook and card and no where does it say to reshuffle. What are your thoughts?

[Kurgan]

The NA rules are a bit open to interpretation. One way to read it is that the Treasure deck is shuffled only before each quest (before someone draws a Treasure card for the first time). Others interpret it to mean the deck is shuffled before EACH time someone searches.

"Put in the bottom of the deck" clearly differs from "shuffle the bad cards back in" as some do it (house rule).

The thing is, under the normal rules, the "good" cards are taken out and discarded during the course of a quest, so players could (assuming you haven't added custom cards) use card counting techniques to determine when there are no "good" cards left and stop searching (unless they see something obvious, like a treasure chest, weapons rack, alchemist bench, sorcerer's table... and there's a quest treasure they are supposed to find still out there). So shuffling the bad cards really doesn't do much after a certain point.

I would say you'll be fine if you shuffle well before the quest begins. But if people are complaining, you could do additional shuffles.

Some GMs do all sorts of things, but drawing the top card is how it is intended, though some modify to do the "pick a card, any card" technique, or drawing the top 3, 5, etc. and let you pick from there. Personally while that is cool, I stick to the shuffle once, draw top card thing. But if you shuffle, making sure it is a thorough shuffle, preferably in front of the heroes. To me "draw a random card" (key word "random") is satisfied by the shuffle, rather than mixing up the pile and not letting them draw the top card.

[mcapone888]

That is how I was leaning, too: 'shuffle once, draw top card'. I think I will go with that. I'll be playing with my kids who are under 12-, so if they know the concept of counting cards already, I'm taking them to Vegas. Thanks.

[Daedalus]

I'd recommend reshuffling.

Be careful! Almost half of the Treasure
Cards Contain Wandering Monsters and
Hazards! These "bad" Treasure Cards
ARE returned to the Treasure deck and
may be re-drawn in the next treasure
search. IMPORTANT! The Treasure
Cards must be shuffled before a Hero
draws one from the deck.

If a "bad" Treasure Card "may be re-drawn in the next treasure search" it can't simply be replaced and forgotten at the bottom of the deck. It must potentially be made available on the next draw. To do this, a subsequent shuffle is necessary and literally called for before "a Hero draws a new one [Treasure Card] from the deck." The Monster Card text doesn’t contradict the above-stated rule, though alone it can be a bit misleading, being a leftover of the original UK game.

[Kurgan]

It goes to the bottom of the deck.. as opposed to being discarded. But that does strongly imply the deck will be reshuffled when the next person comes to search for Treasure. I guess back in the day we always just read this as a reminder not to forget to shuffle the deck before the quest begins not literally every single time. But then you could read it as shuffle after the bad card is added, before the next person draws.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Under the Second Edition as part of set up it states

The shuffled treasure cards should be placed, face-down, within reach of the hero players.

So shuffle them as part of set up.

Trap cards and wandering monster cards are returned to the treasure card pile. The treasure card pile is then shuffled before another treasure card is taken.

I think this is a little ambiguous, the use of the word then implies that the shuffling takes place after the card is returned, the last piece states that it happens before a new card is drawn, but no indication of which point the shuffling takes place, immediately after the card is placed in the deck (in anticipation of another card being drawn in the future) or immediately before a new one is drawn. Good news is that it doesn't matter either way, as long as you are drawing from a shuffled deck.

Personally I prefer to get the player returning the spent card to do the shuffling, as allowing a player to shuffle before they pick their own card tends to lead to "peep-shuffling"...and the Treasure Hoard turning up surprising early in every game...

[Kurgan]

I was wrong in saying the 1990 rules says only to shuffle once per quest... if you read the entire booklet it does clarify you're expected to shuffle before every search.

Also, while many players think it's fun (and I do to) to keep the good cards you find at your spot until used (and THEN discard) you're actually supposed to write them down and then discard, as those cards will be shuffled back into the deck on the next quest, rather than remain in the players "hand" until actually used. And yes, bad cards do go to the back of the deck.

The original "error" I made was because we were not reading the booklet cover to cover, just kind of skimming to get a general idea how to play and then only referencing it when specific situations came up we didn't know how to handle things. We were impatient kids in early 90's, go figure...

[Bareheaded Warrior]

"Put in the bottom of the deck" clearly differs from "shuffle the bad cards back in" as some do it (house rule).

Not clear to me, "shuffle the bad cards back in" is functionally the same as "put in the bottom of the deck" and then shuffle before you draw.

Anyway enough about shuffling, I have another question about wandering monsters...or more specifically Wandering Monster Placement

Under SE the Wandering Monster placement rules are as follows.

As you are busy searching, a monster stalks you and attacks. The gamemaster may place the wandering monster shown in the Quest Book for this adventure in any square next to you. The monster attacks at once. Return this card to the treasure pile.

However some enterprising players have worked out that if you place the searching hero, the Wizard for example into the corner of a room and then box him in with the other 3 heroes then he can search and if a Wandering Monster treasure card is drawn then the placement rules mean that it cannot be placed next to the Wizard so loses its opportunity to strike.

Suggested fix– modification to standard WM placement rules to eliminate the exploit around corners – A wandering monster must be placed on any square at the edge of the heroes’ vision, a square that can be seen by at least one hero that is adjacent to a square that cannot be seen by any heroes.

[wallydubbs]

One time, when playing Fortress of the Ogre Lord, the heroes cleared out one of the 2x3 rooms, setting off the pit trap in the process.
By the time the Elf searched for treasure the only available square next to him was the pit trap. So the Wandering Monster (Ogre) attacked from the pit.
The Wizard just happened to have an Ice Bridge Spell Scroll, which can be cast over a pit. The rules say nothing about an occupied pit trap.
So given the Ogre's immense size I ruled it like a Wall of Ice holding the Ogre in place, so that the Ogre would have to break it before he can move.

[lestodante]

Well, the ogre should not fall into the pit I guess but your wizard use of ice bridge is ... cool!