Monsters jumping pit traps?

[Kurgan]

Lots of things COULD be done to simplify [dang typos!] the game if people were wanting. I personally would find them more boring but here are some off the top of my head:

Don't roll to move. Yeah, lots of people have suggested just used fixed movement, 12 squares for heroes. But why stop there? Why not just allow the Heroes to move as much as they want/need? Perhaps limit squares of movement to instances of actual combat only (no monsters on the board, go where you want to go).

Don't search for treasure. Why bother? Don't even use gold. Instead simply upgrade the Heroes' equipment as they progress. Stronger weapons and armor the longer they survive. When you reach the location of the artifact or whatever, you just get it.

No more death. Heroes don't die. If they go to zero body points, they just come right back to full again. This bypasses having to write a new name on a new character sheet. Since death no longer matters, neither do healing potions. Other potions may be fun but they're exploitable so leave them out, and use spells instead.

Why put limits on magic? Just let the Wizard and Elf use as much magic as they want.

Searching is just one action... for traps and secret doors at once. Already in the EU edition.

Even combat outcomes could be predetermined based on story considerations rather than chance or strategy.

And so on. I'm not saying I want that stuff, but a person could implement them to nullify parts of the game they don't like. Others have implemented infinite treasure searches, infinite healing and so on.

[iKarith]

Lots of things COULD be done to simply the game if people were wanting. I personally would find them more boring but here are some off the top of my head:

Don't roll to move. Yeah, lots of people have suggested just used fixed movement, 12 squares for heroes. But why stop there? Why not just allow the Heroes to move as much as they want/need? Perhaps limit squares of movement to instances of actual combat only (no monsters on the board, go where you want to go).

AHQ does not have a roll to move. But also I think movement is different in exploration and combat phases. That kinda makes sense. I don't see two sets of movement rules (one for exploration and one for combat) as a simplification. Quite the opposite. It might keep the part of the game that CAN get a little boring from doing so.

I could be convinced to rethink movement in the game, but I kinda favor the hybrid approach where you roll and add so that the game doesn't drag on low rolls if they keep happening.

Don't search for treasure. Why bother? Don't even use gold. Instead simply upgrade the Heroes' equipment as they progress. Stronger weapons and armor the longer they survive. When you reach the location of the artifact or whatever, you just get it.

No more death. Heroes don't die. If they go to zero body points, they just come right back to full again. This bypasses having to write a new name on a new character sheet. Since death no longer matters, neither do healing potions. Other potions may be fun but they're exploitable so leave them out, and use spells instead.

These things sound like they make the game not a game anymore. And to be fair, my wizard tends to keep his healing spell and/or a potion handy … and that tends to basically bring him back at full health because wizards are wusses.

Why put limits on magic? Just let the Wizard and Elf use as much magic as they want.

I mentioned XDM earlier… it more or less describes a way that, in a D&D game, wizards need not have things like spell slots. Actually, it kinda does away with most abilities people will take in general. You are a thief, fifth level. You don't need a special ability in, say, smuggling. Why would you? You're a THIEF, and you've managed to survive to fifth level, which is a pretty good amount of experience at thievery. If the fighter wants to get some contraband past the guards, he's going to have a DC 18 roll. Maybe if he's Major Alex Louis Armstrong his mus-cu-larity will so impress the guards that they won't search him for contraband too carefully, but that's at best going to give him a TINY boost to his roll.

The thief … DC 8. Because he's a thief, of course he knows how to smuggle something past the guards, duh. It's what he does.

Okay, so the wizard … he wants to throw a Ball of Flame at a goblin with a freakin' crossbow. In HeroQuest, it'd use his Ball of Flame card for the quest.

In D&D he'd probably use Magic Missile for the equivalent, a level 1 spell which fires off three magic arrows at a time that each do 1d6 damage and Do Not Miss. He'd burn a spell slot to do it, and that'd be his use of the spell for the day (oldskool) or one fewer level 1 spells he can cast the rest of the day (modern). If he runs out of level 1 slots or needs to cast a stronger Magic Missile spell (I would need to check what it does if cast at a higher level), he might use a level 2 or higher slot to beef up the spell. Whether the spell is beefed up or not, it'll use the level 2 slot in that case.

Playing by XDM, the wizard says he wants to throw a small fireball at the goblin. DM determines he can do this, DC's 14. Wizard rolls 12, but has +3 in bonuses, so it hits. Roll damage, but the goblin's a one-hit sort of monster, so odds are he's toast.

Where it gets fun is what if the wizard rolled an 8? Wellll did the spell go wild? Did it burn the wizard? Did it literally blow up like an M-80 in his hand, causing major damage that could not be healed with a "rest" of any sort and would require either expensive magical healing, a deal with one of the world's gods (or something worse…), or some kind of magical artifact to regain use of the hand? Or did he simply miss? (And if he missed, did he hit someone else by accident?)

Why should spells "just automatically work" and always do what they're intended to in D&D? Nothing else works that way in that game. XDM fixes it. Magic is powerful, maybe more powerful than using a sword. But um, if the wizard says, "I wanna cast chain lightning!" and he's in a small space near a bunch of his fellow party all wearing metal armor, they ought to be screaming at him, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?! because the consequence of chain lightning in those conditions is that if you don't roll a success, you just TPK'd your party. Hope you have a fate point or something to change the outcome of a natural 1, because the natural 1 means the worst possible thing that could happen, would. Magic is powerful. And dangerous. Use it carefully!

Does that kind of a magic system work in HQ? HQ proper, no. But a HQ-style game? Maybe. I'll get back to you on that—it's not a very high priority, but if I work it out, I'd love to give it a playtest sometime. But it wouldn't be HQ anymore, and it might require rescaling lots of things.

Searching is just one action... for traps and secret doors at once. Already in the EU edition.

Even combat outcomes could be predetermined based on story considerations rather than chance or strategy.

And so on. I'm not saying I want that stuff, but a person could implement them to nullify parts of the game they don't like. Others have implemented infinite treasure searches, infinite healing and so on.

[/quote]

Someone made searching for traps, treasures, and doors a single action. I'm kinda like … what's the point of traps then?

That said, I did intend to leave those HQ-specific mechanics unspecified so that you could define them according to EU rules, NA rules, or something else. I remain convinced you can fit HQ's rules on two sheets of standard sized paper using a normal sized font. NA or EU, take your pick, and without changing a single rule for the chosen region. The rules that come with the game are VERY verbose.

[Davane]

Just to clarify, AHQ only has a single set of movement rules, but because of the difference between Exploration and Combat turns, and the fact that the full range of options for movement are really only applicable during Combat turns, it can seem like they are two different sets of rules.

AHQ doesn't feature roll to move as such, because during Exploration turns, all Heroes can move 12 spaces. In combat, Heroes are limited to movement up to their Speed characteristic, unless they run. If a Hero runs, then they roll 1 die, and on a roll of anything other than a 2 or 12, they may move that many extra spaces. There's no need to run during Exploration, because as long as there's any Monsters that can fight the Heroes, it's a Combat turn.

What's interesting is that WHQ also doesn't feature roll to move, and reduces the Heroes Movement to 4. However, because of changes within the rules for movement themselves, this is still more than adequate. Firstly, with a Dungeon Room being 4 x 4, and a corridor being 2 x 6, you are looking at between 1 to 2 turns to cross an entire board. It's all you really need, because Exploration occurs at the end of a turn anyway, so in general, if you are pressing forwards, the requirement to explore is often going to stop you before you run out of movement. Plus, you also have diagonal movement, which means that moving around things doesn't necessarily impact your ability to advance. You can still cross a 4 x 4 dungeon room in a single turn, even of you have to move past other Heroes and Monsters.

I think the biggest issue of tedium with HQ isn't to do with movement, and the possibility of rolling low, but the effect that if the EW has no Monsters on the board, there's very little for them to do. Very few Quests have a means for the EW to bring on more Monsters during their phase, so what you end up with in essentially an "opt-in" event system, where the rewards are so utterly pointless in the context of the game, that there's no real inventive for Heroes to ever opt in. In fact, the treasure system ultimately discourages Heroes from searching for Treasure.

Gold serves only as a high score, because after a few, if any, equipment upgrades, there's no real point in it. That really just leaves potions as the sole reason for searching for treasure, and even then, the chances of finding a Healing Potion are so slim, and the alternatives either so severe or so pointless, that you might as well not bother. I mean, you can get Gold which is worth little more than bragging rights after a while, Potions which are basically weaker Spells, or you face risks that aren't worth incurring - regardless of whether you are in danger or not.

The biggest fix for HQ is, without a doubt, creating an Evil Wizard Event deck that is not opt-in.

When it comes to movement itself, ways of making movement more reliable works wonders, and whilst a bell curve from 2d6 is good at that, giving an average movement of 7, the real issue is low rolls, not high rolls, so something which reduces your chance of low rolls without removing them entirely is a good idea. A roll and modifier approach still works, but you still get a range, with as much chance of rolling low rather than rolling high, but the variable range itself is much lower.

This is why I am increasingly inclined to consider rolling #d6, and take the highest, as this increases your chance of getting higher rolls and reduces your chance of getting lower rolls. With an opt-in event system, then you might want to add a modifier, for example, +6, so you are effectively cutting the amount of rolls to get from one point to another in half, but with any suitable event fix for the EW, not including a modifier for a total move of 1 to 6, is still more than reasonable, as the average movement roll will still be 4, and that's still enough movement to get you across most rooms in a single turn. By comparison, a single corridor between any two "junctions" is going to be between 1 to 3 "rooms" wide, and crossing from one side of the board to the other completely will take you roughly 7 turns. This 1 to 3 "rooms" measurement is no more obnoxious than the standard AHQ passage.

Out of interest, most dungeons in WHQ are between 7 to 12 Dungeon Cards long, so, tend to be roughly about 2/3rds the size of your standard HQ Quest in length. That's about the length of moving from one corner of the HQ board to the opposite corner...

[iKarith]

Roll 3d6 and drop the lowest, I should've considered that.

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Huh, yeah, that keeps people moving MOST of the time, with an average roll for heroes of 9, or approximately 45 feet by D&D measurement standards, which we haven generally been assuming when questioning things like … would someone REALLY be able to fire a crossbow at the opposite end of the board? (Yes, yes they could, quite easily.)

Movement for heroes would top out at 60ft using that method. Seems reasonable. Encumbered rolls are weird because there is no bell curve. In fact, six is the most common movement roll:

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Then again, it might make people be willing to actually buy and wear plate armor because the game would not grind to a halt doing so, but you still move slower. It's also a little more reasonable for an encumbered movement rate. (Plate wouldn't encumber your movement like that, but we're assuming for the sake of the game that it does because MB said so.)

Would you add to the movement of monsters to compensate? I kinda think you'd have to. The major reason FOR roll-to-move in my opinion is that it's a gamble whether or not you can outrun the monsters.

[The Admiral]

I am quite happy with the roll 2d6 to move. It adds suspense and variety to the game in my opinion. It also gives a good reason to find/spend money on Dexterity and Speed potions if they are available. I allow their use after rolling the dice.

I agree that Platemail is a cumbersome pain, but then I have a whole set of my own house movement rules.
Dwarves are -1
Elves are +1 but lose this if wearing any armour, unless that armour is lightweight such as mithril, elven chainmail etc.
Platemail = 1d8 for humans, 1d6 for Elves and 1d10 for Dwarves and Barbarians.
Chainmail = -1 for humans, no effect for dwarves or Barbarians, and 1d8 for elves.
Leather* = No effect for anyone, but Elves lose their +1 bonus.

Leather costs 250. It gives 1 extra defence die, but that die only defends on a Black Shield. We roll a 1d6 with the combat dice and count a 6 as the Black shield to avoid separate dice rolling.

The ideas here are that Dwarves are slow, but strong, so won't be much affected by heavy armour. Barbarians are just strong. Elves are quick, but not strong, so to retain their speed they must be unencumbered by armour. Humans fall in between.

[Kurgan]

The Rallying Horn is my version of "suddenly due to the dramatic nature of this part of the quest, everybody gets extra movement" that we've used before (packed with a built-in "oh no, as things are getting more intense a monster ambushes the heroes!" feature when it is used often).

I give the Ranger +1 movement (+2 movement when he levels up) and the Paladin I give +1 movement when he's wearing plate (+2 when he levels up if I recall correctly). Otherwise you've gotta get a good roll, or use a potion or spell to move faster.

The special Treasure Chests in Prince Magnus' Gold slow you down to 1 die (it makes sense to make a Hero re-roll a single red die when he grabs the chest, regardless of how much movement he had left at the time of discovery and it doesn't use an action to grab it). It doesn't say any further penalty if you have plate armor on, and it also doesn't say potions and spells can't speed you up (but that's always how we played it... that these things CAN do that). Setting the cumbersome chest down, and you move normal.

Sorry to get off topic discussing other rule ambiguities and "what if" scenarios in a thread that was originally just about monsters and pit traps. I guess we need more threads like that...

[Daedalus]

I gotta agree that in most cases, straight out placing pit trap/secret door combos would be a dick move, which should be done rarely, if at all. Fortunately, there is the Notes section which must be used for this special combination anyway. A tell, such as a rug covering the trap, would make for a judicious use of BP resources to check this Pit for.a secret door.

The Parchment Text could also serve to point to a worthwhile pit trap search if the Quest reward was said to be well hidden. (Less monsters would be in order if more pit traps needed to be searched.) This doubly-hidden door could be the sort of special in Morcar/Zargon's arsenal that makes a Quest unique.

[Kurgan]

How to make the nonsensical NA rule "you can search for secret doors inside a pit trap."

Dead end leads to an undetectable pit trap. Inside the pit trap is a secret door that leads to a special part of the dungeon (drop vague hint to search for it down there, maybe point of the quest is to find a lost passage hidden DEEP UNDERGROUND or something), etc. etc. It could be done, but would have to be tightly controlled or else it would be very easily skipped or break the quest.

The point about searching for secret doors inside a pit trap makes enough sense on its own, but the same passage talks about treating the pit as if its its own separate room (that can be searched for treasure independently from the surrounding area... which means it could be searched by each hero too!), implying you'd be searching it separately for secret doors which would only happen in scenarios like the above.

[Daedalus]

Yeah, an occurs-too-soon dead end that connects to another section--that's the kind of thinking that makes good use of this combo tool. The idea is to see the potential here for creative Quest exploration.

This pit trap/secret door could also be noted as a secret door that is only found with a search for traps, but it first must be successfully disarmed or damage is suffered. This way BP resources are focused on a revealed goal.

[iKarith]

Yeah, an occurs-too-soon dead end that connects to another section--that's the kind of thinking that makes good use of this combo tool. The idea is to see the potential here for creative Quest exploration.

This pit trap/secret door could also be noted as a secret door that is only found with a search for traps, but it first must be successfully disarmed or damage is suffered. This way BP resources are focused on a revealed goal.

"As you step there, you hear the sound of cracking and crashing as if some kind of mechanism had just broken and suddenly you're falling into a pit. Take 1BP of damage." Combined with a hint about a lost passage very deep underground, that makes the idea that you'd search for doors in the pit make sense.