Monsters jumping pit traps?

[Kurgan]

Okay, so a technical question, and I'm basing this on the NA rules... if a Hero is inside a Pit, it says multiple characters can occupy the same square, and the Hero can treat that Pit trap as a room. I get all that, but what about this... if a Hero is in a Pit, can a Monster just pass right over the top of him? I know monsters don't fall into traps and automatically "jump" pits so to speak, but they normally can't pass through Heroes.


In this case could a monster pass over the top of a Hero inside a pit, or not?


Does the "occupy the same square" just mean that multiple Heroes could fall into the same pit and not refer to this issue at all? Hope that makes sense.

[Shadzar]

Does the "occupy the same square" just mean that multiple Heroes could fall into the same pit and not refer to this issue at all?

Yes for the most part as I have always read it. It is up to Zargon/Morcar to decide who each monster attacks within line of sight. So a monster can attack a Hero in the pit, or ignore them.

[lestodante]

it can step on the hero's head and pass the trap. Unless the hero in the pit is the dwarf!

[Kurgan]

Now that I look at it, it would seem to be an interpretation. Strictly it should be that a hero in a pit is still occupying the square, and another Hero falling in could occupy it, but not a monster, because while the monster won't fall in, they could "stand on the head" of the Hero. Attack downward/Upward? It would get weird.

If two heroes were in the pit, an adjacent monster could pick which Hero they were attacking.

But if it was a corridor, my monster might want to "jump" across and pursue the other Heroes, should that be allowed?

A monster can also stand on the staircase and attack another Hero who is on the stairs (it's not a "safe square" either they are still in the quest or they've left, no in between... and you CAN shoot across the gulf represented by the staircase at a character on the other side).

Being IN a pit doesn't protect you from enemies (quite the opposite, you attack and defend with one less!).

[iKarith]

I think if they jump the pit, then yeah, they totally can pass a player in a pit.

But I also think that this can be generalized—maybe not on the HQ board, but playing on other boards and tiles… If you have a definite height advantage because you're righting people down below you, their dice are down by one. And … that would apply to monsters too. The DragonStrike boards have a couple such places that kind of rule would apply. Some WHQ tiles have those kinds of terrain depicted on them too.

The rules are not a suicide pact. If it makes sense, and it fits the expectations of people at the table, run with it.

In this case: Pits are considered to be effectively small rooms below the surface of the board. Monsters don't fall into them, can jump right over them, and you're at a disadvantage both attacking and defending from a monster if you're in one. It makes sense they'd be able to jump a pit that had a hero in it.

Logic: Monsters can pass each other, and so can heroes. Presumably in the EU version, the latter's only true if the pass-ee permits, which is obviously why monsters cannot pass heroes. Why would they permit it?

Want to stab elf!
Oh, Bob! You've come back again?
Yes. Let Bob pass?
Hmm…
You wouldn't!
Ohh, I don't know, he seems to miss you rather a lot…
Not miss this time!

Okay, the heroes would not USUALLY let the monsters pass. But what can they do to block the way if they're down in a pit? Obviously, they couldn't really. Or if they could, the pit must not be very deep at all.

[Kurgan]

I forgot since they automatically jump traps (don't need to roll) and never take damage from them, a monster would never "try" to jump over a hero, fail and fall in, and then be "standing on his head" in that scenario. If a monster voluntarily enters a pit, he doesn't take damage, but he then has the same disadvantage as a Hero would from within a pit if he stays there to attack/defend.

The choice then becomes whether the "hero in a pit" is an impassable square for a monster, or not (or the monster in the pit is passable for a hero). I'm inclined to say they probably didn't intend for it to be passable, but if it was, no big deal? After all, under Zargon's control, monsters can do whatever he has them do, they're not acting on instinct to always attack the nearest target.

The hero jumping over a monster (in a pit) scenario presents a difficulty, because the hero COULD fail and then land on the monster. What happens then?

A long time ago I can't remember if it was on these forums, there was some back and forth about how ranged weaponry was affected by pits and so forth, but I would just be inclined to keep it simple by sticking to what's printed in the rules as much as possible. Most characters aren't going to want to hang out in pits for long anyway, but if they're forced to, then suddenly it becomes a big issue. And as another aside, despite what the NA rules explicitly say, there is absolutely no point in searching a "pit room" for secret doors. I guess you could contrive some custom scenario where the Hero was forced to fall into a pit, and couldn't get out, but could find a built-in secret door, that I guess would either teleport them to some other location on the board or reveal a secret, subterranean level on another board?

[iKarith]

The reason I brought it up was not because anybody would stay in a pit, but because there are some maps (the DragonStrike boards for example) that have places that are high ground relative to others. The only way those could be useful in combat is with ranged weapons, but since the rules say that pits reduce your attack and defense, if you were on the high ground and attacking with a ranged weapon, the rules for pit combat should apply. It only becomes a problem when you introduce a map that makes it a problem. My gut says that makes sense and if you've got a hero who can take advantage of it, clever of them to use it. But then, one should not figure out what happened to the goblin with the crossbow. BURNINATION!

We always played pit traps that if one was open, you could try to jump it and risk damage, or you could spend your entire movement climbing in safely, and then your next entire movement climbing out. That was dumb because it meant Morcar had to sit there with nobody on the board waiting for heroes to take turns walking up to the edge one turn, climbing down the next, then up the following, then moving, just to save BP. A threat mechanic might make that less silly, since the time taken to do it is time the heroes might not want to spend, particularly since while many can be IN a pit, only one can be NEXT TO one.

[Kurgan]

Yeah I suppose we could start selling "coil of fine rope" (DragonStrike) at the Armory that lets you step into and out of a pit trap safely or something.

I'm inclined to just advertise to the Heroes the Whip (Indiana Jones music) that is basically like a staff combined with a weaker version of Rabbit Boots. But if you want to go into a pit, oops, you stumbled and turned your ankle, sorry. It was dark and slippery. The monsters who set the trap, they know how to operate around it safely.

[iKarith]

D&D classic adventuring kit contained among other things a 10 foot pole that … somehow fit in a backpack? Lazy DMs started responding by making 10 ft pits that the pole just wouldn't quite reach across.

So players started saying they were buying ELEVEN FOOT POLES! … *sigh*

[Kurgan]

I'm not touching that comment with a TWELVE FOOT POLE!

But seriously I kind of remember the saturday morning cartoon show there was an acrobat girl who had a telescoping pole, maybe that was the reference that went over my head. Thankfully back in HeroQuest land, jumping long pits use the same rules as jumping standard pits.