Revised Rulebook - CLOSED

[Bareheaded Warrior]

EDIT: This project has been superseded by Polishing the Second Edition

My plan / hope / intention

1. Create a word version of the EU 2nd Edition rulebook, including as appendices, any related material from the box, such as the cards i.e. a full copy of the rules

2. Create a copy of this document and mark it up with numbers, on a chapter and verse basis, for ease of reference for looking up and discussing sections

3. Mark up all sections where there are perceived problems with the rules as they stand. By perceived problems I mean;
a) Rules that are unclear or ambiguous or contradict each other
b) Areas that arise in play that aren't covered by the rules
c) Problems that emerge later in the game as a result of the balance of the rules
4. For each area where there is a perceived problem within the rules then understand what the problem is and document the problem
6. Discuss and agree on a solutions (possibly reaching out to alternative rules from the first edition or the US edition) and document these, ideally including more than one alternative solution but ideally recording a preferred or recommended solution

Note: I am adopting an 'if it ain't broke then don't fix it approach'.

This would end up, assuming I ever get to the end with our 'YeOldeInn' revised rulebook!

If the above ever gets completed then and only then in a separate document on a separate thread we could consider enhancements to the rules, i.e. changes that are not solutions to problems but only include these where there is broad consensus and add a real benefit without too much complexity... this is something of a stretch target!

Any thoughts (or fears)?

Obviously there is a vast amount of this already covered on the forums in terms of discussions, with or without conclusions, if anyone would be kind enough to add links to any threads around problems with the rules, that will save me some time looking.

I'll update once I hit each stage and provide links to the work in progress, any feedback (and indeed encouragement) would be greatly appreciated!

[Kurgan]

You won't please everybody with the resolutions, so if you can get over that part, no problem, full steam ahead.

Also, the EU 1st/2nd and NA editions aren't the only rule variants. Not sure about the other language translations, but the Japanese rules are totally different than those three, so there's that. Phoenix has an NA focused page that has a compendium of the rules. About the only thing I remember finding fault with were his disregard for the differences between the "swinging blade traps" of ATOH vs. the "swinging axe traps" of the Barbarian Quest pack, which, despite a similar icon, are rather different.

Folks have tried to take the NA exclusives and adapt them to EU standards, and vice versa, so someone's preferred base version is going to be left out whichever way you start and end up.

I did a thread on the (EU released) PC game, which has its own rules variant, but nobody has implemented that in their board game (and why would they) that I know of, since it seems mainly a compromise with the limitations of the project at the time.

If your goal is to lay all three rule sets side by side there are threads already that can help with your research, but if you're looking to smooth them out into a totally new product a "definitive rules" version for play... good luck. Again, not everyone is going to agree with your interpretations or decisions, but like anything else here, I think you'll get respect for the work even if not outright acceptance in the implementation.

Then there's the fact that for all we know the Hasbro Remake may be its own "NA 2nd edition" for all intents and purposes (though I suspect its more like Phoenix's work... NA base with a few EU favorites sprinkled in for flavor, though to be fair he went out of his way to host adaptations of nearly everything, while Hasbro is only doing GS+KK/ROTWL for now plus two brand new questbooks of unknown number of quests with three new heroes).

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Kurgan, you have raised some good points there and I'll edit my original post as I think the key thing that I am trying to achieve is to produce a rulebook for players new to the game or returning to the game that distils the years of wisdom on the forum.

To address every discrepancy would not be practical especially considering all the versions (including the new one) so I need to focus on areas where there are problems with the rules, either as the rules stand in the EU Second Edition they are unclear or ambiguous leading to different interpretations or where the rules themselves are clear but problems emerge during play that are not covered by the rules or are meta-problems like how quickly the Heroes max out and become walking tanks before the end of the first book!

I suppose one way to look at what I'm trying to achieve is if they brought out a third edition of the EU game what would we want to see corrected from the second edition!

[Kurgan]

EU (unofficial) 3rd edition, I like it. Good luck...!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

EDIT: This problem has been resolved under Polishing the Second Edition as the rewritten rules include official errata relevant to this chunk of text.

Easy one to start with (I hope)

18.3 Completing a Quest
The character players complete a Quest successfully if they achieve the objectives described in the parchment text that the evil wizard player reads aloud at the beginning of the game. If they fail to do so, or if they are all players (and/or new ones) can always attempt the same Quest again, but the evil wizard player always starts a new Quest with a full complement of monsters. Characters escape the dungeon by landing on the stairway tile.

If you read this carefully it doesn't make sense! Perhaps this is what was meant:

The character players complete a Quest successfully if they achieve the objectives described in the parchment text that the evil wizard player reads aloud at the beginning of the game. If they fail to do so, or if they are all killed, players (and/or new ones) can always attempt the same Quest again, but the evil wizard player always starts a new Quest with a full complement of monsters. Characters escape the dungeon by landing on the stairway tile.

[Kurgan]

Zargon is encouraged to re-arrange the quest if they fail and replay it too, right?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

And now a biggie ... traps

15. Secret doors and traps
Secret door tiles are only placed on the board if a character player finds them by searching. Trap tiles are only placed if found by a search or if triggered by a character moving onto the trapped square.

15.1 Pit traps and falling block traps are placed onto the board when found. Spear traps are rendered harmless when found, so there are no tokens for spear traps.

15.2 Trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap.

15.3 The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

16. Traps
Traps are not put on the board until a character player either searches for traps and moves into a square containing a trap, as shown on the Quest map.

16.1 The evil wizard player must tell a character player when he has set a trap off. The character must stop immediately and can do nothing else until his next turn.

16.2 Monsters do not set off traps. They may move freely though squares that contain hidden traps. Once a trap has been placed on the board, however monsters must follow the same rules as characters.

16.3 Pit Trap
The pit remains on the board as an obstacle. Any character who stumbles into a pit trap will automatically lose one Body point. Characters in a pit may attack and defend, but roll one less die than normal. They may not search whilst in a pit. The character may move as normal on his next turn.

16.4 Jumping a Pit
Characters and monsters may attempt to jump across a pit trap. They must have enough movement to get across the pit, counting the pit square as one space. There must be an unoccupied space adjacent to the pit for the miniature to jump onto.

16.5 Any miniature who attempts to jump across must roll a combat die. If he rolls a skull he falls into the pit and loses one Body point and may do nothing else until his next turn. Otherwise, the miniature may continue its move.

16.6 Falling Block
When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way.

16.7 Any character or monster in the square into which the block falls must roll three combat dice. The victim must lose one Body point for each skull rolled, and then move to an adjacent unoccupied square.

16.8 If the victim cannot move to an adjacent square, he is eliminated by the falling block.

16.9 Spear Trap
Any player who triggers a spear trap will lose one Body point if he rolls a Skull on a combat die. The spear trap will only affect the first character to enter the square. Subsequent characters who move through this square will be unaffected.

16.10 Treasure Chest Traps
Some of the treasure chests contain traps. The effects of these traps are shown in the Quest notes. If a player searches for traps in a room that contains a trapped treasure chest the trap is found and rendered harmless.

21.2 Dwarf
“You are the Dwarf. You are a good warrior and can always disarm traps that you find. You may remove any visible trap in the same room or passage”.

25.14 Tool kit
The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.

The above covers all the rules that I can find references traps and here are the problems or at least some of them.

15.3 The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

21.2 Dwarf
“You are the Dwarf. You are a good warrior and can always disarm traps that you find. You may remove any visible trap in the same room or passage”.

These two rules appear to contradict each other as 15.3 states adjacent to but 21.2 any visible trap in the same room or passage, I'm open to suggestions but I would recommend removing the third sentence from 21.2

25.14 Tool kit
The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.

16.6 Falling Block
When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way.

So if you search and find a falling block trap then move adjacent to it and use the tool kit to attempt to disarm it but roll a skull and set the trap off then you only lose one Body point then the trap is removed, what happens to the falling block and anyone on the target square, surely if you fail to disarm it then the trap would be triggered, either way why would you lose a Body point?

15.3 The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

25.14 Tool kit
The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.

Does the Dwarf removing the trap tile count as an action, if so then the one trap per turn limit is superfluous as he can only take one action per turn anyway?
Does using the Tool kit to remove a trap count as an action, if so it makes sense that there is no limit, but if not why not and how come you can remove as many traps as you like with the Tool Kit per turn but the Dwarf can only remove one.

16.2 Monsters do not set off traps. They may move freely though squares that contain hidden traps. Once a trap has been placed on the board, however monsters must follow the same rules as characters.

16. Traps
Traps are not put on the board until a character player either searches for traps and moves into a square containing a trap, as shown on the Quest map.

16.3 Pit Trap
The pit remains on the board as an obstacle. Any character who stumbles into a pit trap will automatically lose one Body point. Characters in a pit may attack and defend, but roll one less die than normal. They may not search whilst in a pit. The character may move as normal on his next turn.

If a player character moves into a passage, then searches for traps and discovers a pit trap some distance in front of him but ignores it. The following turn a monster attempts encounters the pit trap and as it is on the board he must attempt to jump it, but falls in. The Dwarf then slays the monster in the pit before removing the pit trap which then remains on the board (16.3)

Any so many more problems, these traps are a minefield ... ba dum tss

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Zargon is encouraged to re-arrange the quest if they fail and replay it too, right?

Correct, I have added a note to that effect to the Marked Up version

[Kurgan]

When you're done I would love to have a copy of this to try out a full EU rules game some day. I bet it would be helpful for buyers of the Remake edition too, who are more nostalgic for the UK edition.

[Daedalus]

. . Any so many more problems, these traps are a minefield ... ba dum tss

Here's another for the IN box: Rules as written, a triggered falling block trap can be removed. Davane opened my eyes to this; I believe these are the pertinent rules:

. . . Trap tiles are only placed if found by a search or if triggered by a character moving onto the trapped square.

15.2 Trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap.

15.3 The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

Yet I recall other EU players have played that a falling block, once triggered, permanently remains on the board like a pit. I think that also can be reasoned from the rules:

16.6 Falling Block
When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way.

There's a strong thematic reason to treat a stone that blocks the way as permanently remaining on the board: if it can fully block a square space, where does it go once removed? Also, Quest design would suggest a triggered block can't be so easily circumvented; the corridor falling block of Barak Tor--Barrow of the Witch Lord comes to mind.

This ambiguity also needs addressing, in my opinion.