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Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Friday March 31st, 2023 12:11pm
by Kurgan
Bareheaded Warrior wrote:It may just be me missing a subtle point, not for the first time, but don't those artefacts, increase your Starting Mind Points ONLY and NOT your Current Mind Points (and the equivalent for Body Points), whilst they are being worn?


The Elven Bracers (1992 card) for instance say they add to his totals, it doesn't say it only applies to starting amount. So I would say if he has Zero mind points and he puts them on, he now has 1. And on the next quest he'd have one more than his original starting amount. If he takes it off, he'd lose one, and if he had only 1 left, he'd be reduced to zero by doing that.

Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Saturday April 1st, 2023 4:26am
by Bareheaded Warrior
I was talking about these kind of artefacts in general rather than specific examples but the same principles must apply (for consistency) and yes you are correct it doesn’t say it only applies to starting amount, it also doesn’t say that it only applies to current amount or that it applies to both starting and current amounts, but it must mean one of them, so which one?

My assumption is that removing them would have exactly the opposite effect to putting them on.

I think there are 3 possible logic interpretations.
a) They affect your current value ONLY.
b) They affect your starting value ONLY.
c) They affect BOTH your starting and current values.

If we first consider (a)

1. If they only affect your current value, then they would use terms like “restoring” or “lost points” as the other items like spells and potions do when they are talking about current values only

2. If they only affect your current value then taking them off could result in your instant death, suicide by artefact, which doesn’t feel logical or very HeroQuesty. This could also happen if the artefact was destroyed (and there are a few very rare effects in the game that can result in the loss of an artefact)

3. If they only affect your current value then putting them on when you are already at your max would increase the value beyond the max, which isn’t allowed, so presumably you would have this situation, current MP4, put them on, current MP5, but that breaches your max so the extra 1 is lost, so current MP4, then you take them off, to give them to someone else or you have found a more cool artefact that takes the same slot, or whatever, so your MP then drops to 3, net effect is that by putting them on the then taking them off you have lost a point. Again, this doesn’t feel right to me.

So, 3 reasons why I think that (a) isn’t the intended working interpretation.

Then (b)

No objections

Finally (c)

Same as point 2 above, suicide by artefact

4. Putting them on under the shock rules would instantly negate the shock effect, so carrying these around in your pocket or putting them on another hero would be a get out of jail free card for shock rules and also some of the unconscious rules (provided at least 1 hero is still conscious) and similar in NA edition and the AtOH spell in EA that leads to unconsciousness

So, 2 reasons why I think that (a) isn’t the intended working interpretation.

Hence my assumption that (b) They affect your starting value ONLY is the intended working interpretation.

Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Saturday April 1st, 2023 11:11am
by wallydubbs
I think you're just arguing over semantics here, I think if it adds to your starting mind points (4) +1 = 5. If it adds 1 to your current mind points (4) +1= 5. Either way if you lose 1 mind point you're back to 4. You lose another, 3. Then 2 then 1 then 0. Reaching 0, of course is the only possible difference.

But bear in mind the Hero Quest game system and Mage of the Mirror weren't made by the same person. Mage of the Mirror didn't go through the same playtesting process and has a lot more errors. It's HeroQuest, keeping it simple, which is the assaulting difference on D&D. Let Zargon get the final day on the matter, you already know what it's supposed to mean despite obvious wording differences.

Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Friday May 5th, 2023 12:45pm
by Kurgan
It's true, Zargon makes the call and enforces it for the heroes at the table (not up to each individual hero to come up with his own explanation of what it means). Arguing over rules at the table is poor game etiquette, a faux pas. But a hero may say "I thought it worked this way..." or "what if it worked this way" and I can respond "I'll allow it" or "no it will be this way" and that's that, no time for debate!

In the final analysis, you as Zargon will do what you are going to do (maybe what you were going to do all along anyway) but it's nice to compare notes and put out our questions and doubts and talk about it a little ahead of time so one isn't caught so flat footed.

In some cases we know what the designers intended (whether they succeeded or not is another story), but even so we might not agree that is the best or the best for this particular table, I agree.

So for me personally yes, the intention of the designers is very important to me (agreed that you had different people working on the 1992 expansions just as regional versions had different editors making changes) but it is also not the final word or limiting factor. The community consensus is important to me as well but I can also take it with a grain of salt if I disagree, though I like to know what others are saying too. It's useful data!


Regarding the Shock Rule today, Avalon Hill (obviously not the same people who created Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror in '92) are saying that Mind Points being raised above zero at any time removes the "Shock" state. So it's not permanent and it's even easier to get out of (relatively, since Mind Point restoring items are rarer or cost gold) than death. So it's not like you need to have the restoring item in your hand as your character goes into "Shock" (like the death saves) and if not then it's permanent until the next quest (though this could be a natural enough interpretation without the clarification). I think when I first read the shock rules I HOPED that was the case and thought it might be "too hard" without that. There are two bosses in the BQP that can reduce you to zero mind points, and a chance each quest that the Barbarian at least can go to zero since he has the potential to lose 2 mind points from drawing "poison" cards (and failing to get a safe die roll). Going to zero mind points is much more dangerous in ROTWL where you go unconscious or KK where you flat out die (and apparently there only an Elixir of Life can save you!).

As the various examples provided show, in classic heroquest what happens to a hero with ZERO mind points varies per pack. Good point noticing that in the EU original the general rule was death... and since there was no Elixir of Life (except in Dark Company that brought you back with 1 BP, no mention of Mind Points) and no "death saves" (as in the NA edition) that was that, but specific expansions modified that rule just as quest notes always do. EQP/BQP seem to be the first attempt to set a uniform rule (and whether you as Zargon decide to apply that retroactively to past quests is your business but is probably not something the developers intended and might lead to some unintended effects). I presume moving forward with new expansions the "shock" rule will be the norm for Avalon Hill but for all we know they'll change it again for some special case (why not?).

PS: 0I know I included EQP/BQP in "classic" HeroQuest but I should say the classic era. They're legacy packs but few would consider them classics... yes, they are rare and sought after collectibles but that's because they were on the market for such a short time as the "last" official board game products in the series until the remake. Until the remake they were out of reach for most players and so very few actually got to enjoy them until now and their quality compared to the others is questionable at best (though they contain vast potential, hence why people still want them to this day!).

Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Monday May 8th, 2023 4:18am
by Bareheaded Warrior
Kurgan wrote:As the various examples provided show, in classic heroquest what happens to a hero with ZERO mind points varies per pack.


Sort of, but I think you are ignoring the pattern. In SE HeroQuest it clearly states that reducing a Hero to zero Mind Points result in their elimination from the game. I see no reason to assume the same isn't the case in NA edition, at least the base game, although that is not explicitly stated (add that to the long list of rules that apply in HeroQuest but are not explicitly stated in the rulebook!)

• Game System / Gathering Storm = Zero Mind points = Dead
• Kellar's Keep = Zero Mind Points = Dead
• Return of the Witch Lord* = Zero Mind points = Dead
*There is one quest specific exception made for Bellthor's Gas Attack but that is clearly a plot mechanism to ensure Heroes are captured in time for the next Quest
• Against The Ogre Horde* = Zero Mind points = Dead
*there is one specific exception in that the Mind Blast spell renders you unconscious if you reach zero Mind Points but then there are no rules provided around how to handle unconscious characters
• Wizards of Morcar Against = Zero Mind points = Dead

Then as you correctly point out the later Quests from the NA edition introduce the Mind point zero = shock rule.

My question on this topic is always the same, why did they feel the need to introduce the shock rules, that is, what was wrong with the long standing Zero Mind points = Dead rule?

I don't think they introduced these rule changes on a whim, they were implemented to fix a problem, a problem that existed right from the first edition of HeroQuest but because Mind points were never really utilised fully until these later Quests the problem hadn't really become apparent.

In terms of standard physical combat the Wizard was always the weakest hero, by design, the minimum stats in this regard and so had to be protected and shielded by his companions with only 1AD, 2DD, 4BP he would struggle to survive many encounters with even the 2 or 3AD basic monsters that are prevalent in these earlier quests although later depending on your edition, he could be boosted to the heady heights of 2AD, 4DD, 4BP as Quest difficulty and monster strength ramped up but still always the minimum weakest in terms of physical combat.

However if we turn to 'mental' or magic combat, the Barbarian has the equivalent stats of 2AD, 2DD and only 2BP (as Mind points are used as the equivalent to Attack, Defend and Body points) so effectively the Barbarian has only 50% of the minimum stats needed to survive the odd attack by 2AD or 3AD strength creatures, but the kind of monsters that perform mind attacks tend to have much higher MP / AD, at least double the 2/3AD attackers that the Wizard faces, so effectively our Barbarian is 4x weaker than the minimum starting stats of the Wizard. And the Dwarf won't fare much better with 3AD,3DD and 3BP equivalent.

So once you get to these later quests, that actually and finally utilise Mind points then the issue is revealed, they don't work, one Mind Attack from some of these Sorcerers will instantly kill your Barbarian or Dwarf and possibly even the Elf stone dead.

To resolve this problem the NA team created the Shock rules, and whilst I get the need to do something, in my own house rules I have decided upon a different solution to this problem.

Replace the Mind point attribute with the Mind Dice attribute. Mind Dice are used when attacking or defending against Mind or Magic attacks the same as Mind Points, but any damage suffered as a result of a Mind attack is deducted from your Body point total rather than your Mind point total.

This removes any need to lose, restore or track Mind points as they are a stat just like Attack Dice or Defend Dice, resolves the fundamental weakness in the Barbarian (and the other Heroes), resolves all discrepancies in the rules around current Mind points versus starting Mind points, resolves any need to worry about handling the complexities of shock rules or unconscious heroes, but still leaves our Barbarian (and to a lesser extent Dwarf) vulnerable to Mind attacks, as he is likely to be defending against 5-6AD with 2DD and 8BP against those attacks, but 5-6DD and 8BP against physical attacks that are most likely in the 3-5AD range

Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Monday May 8th, 2023 11:20pm
by Kurgan
That's cool that they planned ahead with the EU original* and said losing mind points kills the hero (eliminates the player character's piece from the game), but where in the Game System (original 14 quests) do you ever get to lose mind points?


* I realize that KK & ROTWL were released the same year as the first edition, just saying. Makes me think of the remake of the Elf Quest Pack (Mage of the Mirror) which explains that unmarked chests have 200 gold coins in them, but then make that general rule irrelevant by making each one have an actual amount of treasure (or artifact) in it. That was clearly a placeholder that was left in as they brought it to the printers (didn't trust themselves to catch them all?).

Re: Restoring Mind Points in Classic Hero Quest

PostPosted: Friday May 12th, 2023 8:43am
by wallydubbs
Kurgan wrote:That's cool that they planned ahead with the EU original* and said losing mind points kills the hero (eliminates the player character's piece from the game), but where in the Game System (original 14 quests) do you ever get to lose mind points?


* I realize that KK & ROTWL were released the same year as the first edition, just saying. Makes me think of the remake of the Elf Quest Pack (Mage of the Mirror) which explains that unmarked chests have 200 gold coins in them, but then make that general rule irrelevant by making each one have an actual amount of treasure (or artifact) in it. That was clearly a placeholder that was left in as they brought it to the printers (didn't trust themselves to catch them all?).


Asides from that one Boss in the East Gate from Keller's Keep there are a few Chaos (Dread) spells in Frozen Horror that go after mind points (Against the Ogre Horde too), and the two poison cards added to the Treasure deck in Mage of the Mirror attack the heros MP. Asides from those examples, really not that much.

*Though I can CAN agree that they didn't trust themselves to find all the errors, probably because in cases of Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror they didn't really playtest it. In fact, I question if they even playtested Prophecy of Telor, Spirit Queen's Torment and Crypt of Perpetual Darkness. I've been playing through Prophecy of Telor and found a couple of errors in the Quest Maps.