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Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby knightkrawler » Tuesday June 7th, 2016 5:47pm

Gold Bearer wrote:Long swords are designed for thrusting as well, like rapiers. The extra width of a broadsword makes it much worse for thrusting but good at slicing because the extra weight is what allows it to cut through bone.


Both longsword and broadsword are in my armory, the difference being that the longsword grants you diagonal attack and costs 300 gold (broadsword 240).

Gold Bearer wrote:It's only specified that they start with short swords in the US version..


You are aware that I've been writing my own rules based on the good things about NA and EU versions?
NA, among other great advantages over EU, had the AD correlate to the use of weapons, which the EU version, I think, simply forgot to do.
The way I broke down AD and DD into skill and weapon is explained at length elsewhere. Fact is, in my game, heroes start with an assigned weapon, without which they have to attack weaponlessly (meaning 1 AD, causing only 1 BP of damage at most, even when enhanced by a spell or potion).

mitchiemasha wrote:
knightkrawler wrote:Exactly. Kinda my plan for a new skill/special rule. Dual Wield=Shortsword w/o diagonal worthwhile.


Including Orcs bane?

How would you do the dual? make it 2 attacks or roll 4d6? I went for 2 attacks.


I still have that idea only formulated in my head because I want to make the shortswrod useful again.
If Orc's Bane is included, I'd go for the two weapons being handled and interpreted seperately, meaning attack with the normal shortsword, defend, attck with orc's bane, defend, if attacked was an orc, attack again, defend. Everything with 2 AD.
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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby Gold Bearer » Tuesday June 7th, 2016 6:08pm

mitchiemasha wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:That's not an argument, that's a nothing.
I know, I wasn't making one, simply saying I don't accept it. Not now and NEVER, lol!
If you mean you'll never accept playing it that way then fine. If you mean that it's not why the short sword can attack diagonally then it's a huge coincidence that not only are all the diagonal weapons thrusting weapons but all the thrusting weapons are diagonal weapons. That must be why the short sword was originally a diagonal weapon.

knightkrawler wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:Long swords are designed for thrusting as well, like rapiers. The extra width of a broadsword makes it much worse for thrusting but good at slicing because the extra weight is what allows it to cut through bone.
Both longsword and broadsword are in my armory, the difference being that the longsword grants you diagonal attack and costs 300 gold (broadsword 240).
Never understood why the longsword costs the same as a crossbow (and the halberdier costs the same as a crossbowman in the US rules).

knightkrawler wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:It's only specified that they start with short swords in the US version.
You are aware that I've been writing my own rules based on the good things about NA and EU versions?
Yes of course. I was just making the point that an ordinary standard 'Sword/Axe' weapon could be used to replace the US shortsword to free up the shortsword as a non-throwable spear type weapon, which completes the set if you want the hand axe as well.

knightkrawler wrote:I still have that idea only formulated in my head because I want to make the shortswrod useful again.
If Orc's Bane is included, I'd go for the two weapons being handled and interpreted seperately, meaning attack with the normal shortsword, defend, attck with orc's bane, defend, if attacked was an orc, attack again, defend. Everything with 2 AD.
That's the much better option because of the two defences. If you combine the attack dice then it's much more overpowered. :2cents:
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby cynthialee » Tuesday June 7th, 2016 6:15pm

Goblin-King wrote:The whole price vs usefulness is a complete mess. I honestly don't think a lot of thought went into it...

THIS!

So much of it makes no sense! The entire thing is a mess of silly. Gold coins for a staff? Seriously?...gold coins for a Staff? Where did that staff come from? Off the world tree itself?! Better be, it is a stinkin' piece of wood.
I tend to hand out equipment liberally, (perhaps too liberally) and provide opportunity to spend gold on potions and lesser artifacts.

Oh and I also allow them to "Bribe and Hire" merc's when encountered in the dungeon. They have to land adjacent to the merc and offer them some gold. If it is the price on the card or higher they roll a Combat Dice, if it comes up a Black Shield this merc is not for sale and gets to take an immediate free attack against the hero. Hero of course may defend.
I use a wandering Monster deck for some games and one might find a merc in the deck on occasion.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby knightkrawler » Tuesday June 7th, 2016 6:25pm

Gold Bearer wrote:Never understood why the longsword costs the same as a crossbow


I think it's because you can't attack diagonally adjacent squares with a crossbow. I don't even know where exactly I stand on this, but the argument has been made.
So there's no square you can attack with both weapons. Which means diagonal attacks are worth more than they would be if you included them in ranged attacks.

Gold Bearer wrote:I was just making the point that an ordinary standard 'Sword/Axe' weapon could be used to replace the US shortsword to free up the shortsword as a non-throwable spear type weapon, which completes the set if you want the hand axe as well.


Aah... I think I'll make a Rapier card, after all. Or an Arming Sword?
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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby whitebeard » Tuesday June 7th, 2016 9:46pm

Gold Bearer wrote:
The Admiral wrote:Once again the NA version makes more sense to me. A short weapon with long reach makes no sense to me.
Because it's a stabby weapon. ;)


:lol:

"Yeah. The pointy end goes into the other man."

:lol:

In other news. The progression vs. cost is quite clear in the US version without modification.

@KK. In your new rules, you could consider allowing the barbarian two hand-to-hand attacks each at one die (independent monster defend rolls) and perhaps only if he opts not to move. And the wizard zero hand-to-hand attack dice and only one die if he opts not to move. Given that the party needs to be weaponless, this bonus to the barbarian and penalty to the wizard are rarely used.


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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby clmckay » Tuesday June 7th, 2016 9:48pm

I liked seeing Anderas' list of his equipment earlier with the different color dice. So here's mine.

We use cards. Depending on where they're at I draw a random number from the deck of these cards, usually 10-15 to represent what a shop has.

It makes for nice interactions and decisions on the Heroes part, "do I buy this now or hope that a better version comes up and I can afford it", etc.

There's actually a ton beyond these, but this was the skeletal structure I used, there are variations in price among the same item (Hey, different shops charge different rates).

Anyway...here it is.

Shops.pdf


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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby knightkrawler » Wednesday June 8th, 2016 12:04am

whitebeard wrote:@KK. In your new rules, you could consider allowing the barbarian two hand-to-hand attacks each at one die (independent monster defend rolls) and perhaps only if he opts not to move. And the wizard zero hand-to-hand attack dice and only one die if he opts not to move. Given that the party needs to be weaponless, this bonus to the barbarian and penalty to the wizard are rarely used.


Nice idea. As it stands, most heroes have :skull: as hits in weaponless attacks. Barbarian has :skull: and :blackshield: . Wizard has :whiteshield: and this restriction: You can only make an unarmed attack if you cannot move before your action.
Your idea is pretty nifty for a streetwise type of hero and as a "buyable" Academy skill.
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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday June 8th, 2016 6:07am

Gold bearer I think you missed

mitchiemasha wrote: it was likely the initial idea in the UK version



Gold bearer wrote:That's the much better option because of the two defences. If you combine the attack dice then it's much more overpowered.


Exactly what i was thinking.


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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby Gold Bearer » Wednesday June 8th, 2016 10:50am

knightkrawler wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:Never understood why the longsword costs the same as a crossbow
I think it's because you can't attack diagonally adjacent squares with a crossbow. I don't even know where exactly I stand on this, but the argument has been made.
So there's no square you can attack with both weapons. Which means diagonal attacks are worth more than they would be if you included them in ranged attacks.
Yea I think that's right, or it makes no sense at all but it still seems very strange that they're the same price. You can obviously make the crossbow two handed as it should be but I don't think there's any reason to choose a US halberdier over a US crossbowman just for the odd occasion where the halberdier could attack where the crossbowman couldn't.

knightkrawler wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:I was just making the point that an ordinary standard 'Sword/Axe' weapon could be used to replace the US shortsword to free up the shortsword as a non-throwable spear type weapon, which completes the set if you want the hand axe as well.
Aah... I think I'll make a Rapier card, after all. Or an Arming Sword?
Technically I think rapier would be better, it's also more commonly known. Arming swords are 'long'swords, rapiers are swashbuckling type swords.

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Mask Of Zorro. I loved that film. :)

mitchiemasha wrote:Gold bearer I think you missed
mitchiemasha wrote: it was likely the initial idea in the UK version
Ah, yes I did.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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Re: Short Sword & Broadsword [NA / UK / GR Versions]

Postby The Admiral » Wednesday June 8th, 2016 11:07am

Gold Bearer wrote:
knightkrawler wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:Never understood why the longsword costs the same as a crossbow
I think it's because you can't attack diagonally adjacent squares with a crossbow. I don't even know where exactly I stand on this, but the argument has been made.
So there's no square you can attack with both weapons. Which means diagonal attacks are worth more than they would be if you included them in ranged attacks.
Yea I think that's right, or it makes no sense at all but it still seems very strange that they're the same price. You can obviously make the crossbow two handed as it should be but I don't think there's any reason to choose a US halberdier over a US crossbowman just for the odd occasion where the halberdier could attack where the crossbowman couldn't


Ranged attack is much more flexible than an adjacent diagonal attack, agreed, but I think with the ability to have a shield with a longsword, the money for them is right. Re the Halberdier, it is useful to have that diagonal attack at times, but for the same money as a Crossbowman, he should maybe have an extra defence die to make there even cost fair?
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