Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Wednesday February 24th, 2016 3:26am

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1.Potions

Agreed that drinking (quaffing is much more dramatic) a potion at any time seems a little generous but as the group that I host include players ages 6, 9 11 it would be mean to change that and the same applies for not allowing a Hero with zero body points to quaff a potion, but with a more mature audience then perhaps, quaff on your turn only makes more sense.

2.Traps Through Doorways

In our house rules (link below) searching and traps are handled differently so this situation doesn't arise, in essence;

Replace one of the red six sided dice with a die of another colour. When a player moves onto a square containing a trap (or trigger for a trap or similar device) then check the score on the red die if it is a 5 or 6 then tell the player that they have spotted a trap on that square and have managed to avoid triggering it, otherwise the trap is triggered (certain characters such as the Dwarf and Thief types may get a bonus +1 to this roll, and you get a bonus +1 if actively searching).

3.Throwing Weapons

We play "Throwing weapons are only lost/damaged beyond repair if you miss i.e. all shields on your attack roll, but otherwise can be recovered by moving to the target square or automatically if the area is searched." This encourages the use of throwing weapons and therefore actually increases the gold drain for Heroes as 'throw it and lose it' tends to translate into 'don't throw it'. This method also means the cheaper weapons such as daggers that roll less dice are more likely to be lost / damaged beyond repair which seems appropriate.
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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Daedalus » Saturday August 20th, 2016 5:02am

WALL-OF-WORDS ALERT!

GimmeYerGold wrote:I wanted to revive this thread to address a question I haven't seen discussed elsewhere:

HOW do you throw a weapon? The description of a throwable weapon says "this weapon can also be thrown" etc., implies that an attack action is required to throw the weapon, but it isn't explicit to the extent of how that happens.

Is the weapon thrown from the hand that is holding it, or directly from the inventory, not interfering with what the hero is holding as their weapon or shield?

If the idea of a "equipped" weapon comes to mind, one way to play it is the weapon must first be equipped by the Hero to be thrown, and then the hero is unarmed after throwing the weapon.

I ask this question because in my ruleset, changing equipment is an action, and recovering a lost thrown weapon is an action (similar to searching for treasure, it cannot be performed normally while a monster is present), so knowing if a hero must first equip a weapon to throw it, and if a hero must equip another weapon afterwards to be armed again is useful knowledge....

I used the same search for treasure to recover thrown weapons, but expanded it to any search so that a thrown weapon could also be recovered in a corridor using the NA rules.

I hope you consider throwing more than 1 dagger as a single equip of a weapon. If not, the poor Wizard or any Hero will lose a lot of turns for small attacks. A crossbow doesn't have this limitation. I guess you could count reloading a crossbow as equipping separate bolts if you wanted to tone it down instead.

GimmeYerGold wrote:How do you play it, and how do the particulars of thrown weapons make sense or fit into custom rules for you?

How I interpret arming and unarming weapons:

  1. a weapon must be armed in an available hand to use
  2. weapons or other equipment may be dropped in addition to other activity, such as arming
  3. a dropped weapon may be picked up if no monsters are visible
  4. a thrown weapon may be picked up as part of any search action
  5. an armed weapon may be exchanged with a stored weapon if no monster is adjacent
  6. a weapon may only be exchanged/armed during a Hero's turn
  7. exchanging/arming a weapon is in addition to one of the 6 actions
I extrapolated from the BQP rule governing the passing of equipment to arrive at #5.

More about #6 and #7:

NA Instruction Booklet p. 12 wrote:On A Hero's Turn
As a Hero, you may move and then perform an action, OR you may perform an action and then move. You may not, however, move part way, perform an action, and then finish your movement....

A Hero's Turn consists of two discreet parts, movement and an action. (Actually, this being Hero Quest, search actions assume movement of the Hero, but not the figure.) The actions and movement are both essential for dungeon crawling, so their interaction is explicitly governed within a Hero's turn. The 6 actions are also exclusive to each other. By this I mean only one action may be performed each Hero turn. A single action may be made up of smaller parts, however, such as finding multiple traps, secret doors, or treasures. Casting an extra spell or attacking twice is also possible with the aid of magic or artifacts.

Since I think of throwing and exchanging weapons as nonessential options for dungeon-crawling, I choose to include arming a thrown weapon (or any weapon) in addition to the 6 actions rather make it an action. However, some of the same principles that apply to actions also work for readying weapons.

NA Instruction Booklet pp.12-13 wrote:Hero Movement
...
Looking And Opening Doors
...Looking is NOT one of the 6 actions.... Opening a door is also NOT one of the 6 actions. Both "looking" and "opening doors are simply considered to be additional things you at do on your turn.
...
Important: Getting caught in a trap, drinking potions, and picking things up also do not count as actions. They can be done at any time during your turn.

Less essential things are also possible in a Hero's turn. Those things governed by movement only, such as looking and opening doors, may be done any number of times in a Hero's turn. Other things that can happen either during movement or during an action, such as getting caught the in a trap or picking things up, suggest exclusivity to each other within a Hero's turn, as with actions. The exception is drinking potions; more than one may be drunk in a turn and they may be drunk at any time (p.17.)

Looking and opening doors are cited under movement and necessarily happen during the movement part of a Hero's turn. As movement may not start before and continue after an action, these additional activities may not occur either before an action-then-movement sequence or after a movement-then-action sequence.

Getting caught in a trap can occur both while failing to disarm a trap (an action) and during movement when springing a hidden trap. Similarly, picking things up can occur both when searching for treasue (an action) and as part of movement when carrying a chest. Both of these activities can be done at any time during a Hero's turn to allow for either action or movement possibility. This means a Barbarian may move into a room with a chest, search for treasure, and then pick up the chest, all on the same turn.

Which limit is best for arming a weapon: during a Hero's movement, or at any time during a Hero's turn? I'd say for simplicity at any time during the Hero's turn is best. This choice is supported by matching the criteria for "at any time during your turn": a weapon could logically be armed both as part of movement and also part of back-to-back attacks with no intervening movement.

Two examples:

    An Elf armed with a shortsword and shield, but carrying some daggers, rounds a corner. He reveals a Fimir lurking a bit further than he can reach. He swaps his sword for a dagger and throws, wounding the monster. The Fimir closes and attacks. The Elf then readies his shortsword to finish the battle.

    A Barbarian with a battle axe is holding open an escape route against several monsters in an outer corridor, but his Body Points are dangerously reduced in the process. After attacking with the battle axe one last time, he drops it and arms himself with a shield for the following attack. On his next turn he arms himself with his starting broadsword to finish the fight. If he flees, her loses his battle axe, but should he win he may recover the weapon as part of a search.
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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Goblin-King » Saturday August 20th, 2016 5:46am

Spending 5 turns fiddling around to throw a weapon... It's like you don't want people to use thrown weapons!

Thrown weapon can be thrown directly from the backpack regardless what the hero has equipped.
Thrown weapon is lost. That's the price for firing from the backpack.
A backpack full of axes is a money sink once the heroes are fully equipped.
It's not meant to be a primary attack, but more situational. Like when a monster prevents searching for traps down a corridor.

There... nice and simple ;)


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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Daedalus » Sunday August 21st, 2016 12:07pm

Goblin-King wrote:Spending 5 turns fiddling around to throw a weapon... It's like you don't want people to use thrown weapons!

Throwing weapons is cool. That's why I allow a good chance of recovering one.

Either I'm confused (possibly) or my post was confusing (likely.) The enumerated points about arming a weapon were included to expand what happens within a turn. They don't add any actions or take extra turns, but may happen additionally in a Hero's turn. Basically, they are academic.

In the Elf example, he starts armed with a shortsword (#1.) It is his turn (#6) and he isn't adjacent to the Fimir, so he exchanges weapons for a dagger (#5.) He then throws the dagger as an attack action on the same turn (#7.) After the Fimir's turn, the Elf re-arms himself with his shortsword (#1) at he beginning of his turn (#6.) All those elements aren't necessary to understand while attacking--they just happen.

This effectively works just like throwing from the backpack. As an EU player, that's all you need. Most NA players also are set.

As an NA player, I wanted to utilize the bit in the EQP and BQP about passing equipment to derive a separate arming situation accommodating an adjacent monster. House-rules were requested for comparison by GimmeYerGold and that's my untested example (shown with the Barbarian.) It shouldn't affect play much as it would rarely come up--maybe it isn't worth the trouble.
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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby mitchiemasha » Sunday August 21st, 2016 1:40pm

I 2nd "lost thrown weapons are found if the area is searched". Nice and simple. Makes it more an incentive to buy them, with out over powering them, thanks to how searching works.

For dagger, introduce bandolier to the armoury, great for assassin, thief's etc. Extra inventory slot, Daggers are always equipped. To reequip weapons I prefer the simple mechanic of sacrificing 1 rolled d6.


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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Anderas » Monday August 22nd, 2016 6:58am

I state in my rules:
* You may swap, drop and trade equipment before you take your action, but not afterwards.

So you have a long sword and there is an Orc not advancing, maybe because there's a trap in the way?

Ok, so you swap to hand axe
you throw as attack action.

Next turn it's on you, before you take your action, you swap back to long sword. You may announce it before, but then it will take effect right at the beginning of your next turn.

The only difference to not tracking the equipment at all is what equipment you have in Morcar's turn:
* You swap to Battle Axe before attacking? That means you have no shield equipped when Morcar strikes back.
that's the only point, really.

For treasure search, i state that you:
* Take a treasure card
* find thrown cards if the enemy that you threw at was in this room
* find dropped equipment and equipment of dead heroes
if the room was never out of sight since the throwing, dying or dropping took place.

So throwing and finding is two actions in total, whereas the finding is put together with the treasure search, so it shouldn't stretch the game.


Now, a thought that is not completely unrelated, but was crossing my mind right now:

With this rule it might be interesting to distinguish between Spear and Pilum.
The Spear may be thrown. The enemy may take it and throw it back. That's bad. But you can find and reuse it. That's good.

Ancient armies invented the pilum for that. It had a weakened point, so you could throw it, but then it was useless.
The point had another nice habit: If it hit a hard surface, for example a shield of an enemy fighter, it would deform and stay put. It basically rendered the shield useless.
Would there be an interesting use for a pilum in HQ?


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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby GimmeYerGold » Monday August 22nd, 2016 3:34pm

Combining the recovery of thrown weapons with another search is a good idea to speed things up, and fits thematically. Since the hero is drawing a treasure card as well, with a chance for finding treasure or trouble, I feel that it is reasonable that a Hero may encounter a Hazard or Wandering Monster while searching for their lost dagger or handaxe as well.


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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Friday October 14th, 2016 4:20pm

I have already replied to this post so I shouldn't be greedy but I have refined some of the relevant rules since posting last time so that is my justification!

I think that the rules indicate that potions may be quaffed (you always quaff a potion or a pint, drinking is not Heroic) on your turn as a free action but I let the Heroes quaff a potion at any time as they need a break with my house rules and we play the game for fun, if we wanted realism then we could get it by putting the game away. With regards to searches and throwing weapons;

5.1 SEARCH – If you are in a room with no Monsters in sight then you may search the room provided it has not been cleared already (the EVIL WIZARD needs to mark off cleared rooms). This is a whole turn action and the movement is assumed so you do not need to move your Hero or roll the dice. Declare your intention to search and the EVIL WIZARD will reveal the location of any traps in the room at which point your search and your turn end. If there are no traps in the room or the traps have already been revealed then the EVIL WIZARD will reveal the location of any hidden doors in the room – by placing doors in the relevant places at which point your search and your turn ends. If there are no hidden doors in the room or they have all been revealed then you may draw a card from the Treasure Deck and the room is now considered clear.

7.4 THROW a throwing weapon – works exactly like shooting a ranged weapon apart from, if you miss the target i.e. you roll only white shields then your throwing weapon is lost or broken, otherwise it can be recovered from the target square or automatically if the area is searched.

8.1 If, during your movement, you step onto a square with a hidden trap or door then the EVIL WIZARD will check the total of the dice that you rolled for your movement, if this total is less than seven then you have SPOTTED the hidden object otherwise you have missed it and set off the trap or failed to notice the hidden door.

8.2 The DWARF Hero gains a ONE point bonus on their SPOT tests i.e. less than EIGHT
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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby Anderas » Saturday October 15th, 2016 1:58am

Anderas wrote:I state in my rules:
* You may swap, drop and trade equipment before you take your action, but not afterwards.

So you have a long sword and there is an Orc not advancing, maybe because there's a trap in the way?

Ok, so you swap to hand axe
you throw as attack action.

Next turn it's on you, before you take your action, you swap back to long sword. You may announce it before, but then it will take effect right at the beginning of your next turn.

The only difference to not tracking the equipment at all is what equipment you have in Morcar's turn:
* You swap to Battle Axe before attacking? That means you have no shield equipped when Morcar strikes back.
that's the only point, really.

For treasure search, i state that you:
* Take a treasure card
* find thrown cards if the enemy that you threw at was in this room
* find dropped equipment and equipment of dead heroes
if the room was never out of sight since the throwing, dying or dropping took place.

So throwing and finding is two actions in total, whereas the finding is put together with the treasure search, so it shouldn't stretch the game.


Now, a thought that is not completely unrelated, but was crossing my mind right now:

With this rule it might be interesting to distinguish between Spear and Pilum.
The Spear may be thrown. The enemy may take it and throw it back. That's bad. But you can find and reuse it. That's good.

Ancient armies invented the pilum for that. It had a weakened point, so you could throw it, but then it was useless.
The point had another nice habit: If it hit a hard surface, for example a shield of an enemy fighter, it would deform and stay put. It basically rendered the shield useless.
Would there be an interesting use for a pilum in HQ?


I just found out that i introduced a bug in my rules with the "finding thrown weapons" rule.
You will find magical throwing daggers.
Those artifacts will likely never disappear from the heroe's inventory with my rule.
Now i am on the search for a good alternative, apart from the obvious and clumsy addition of an exception to the rule just for magical throwing daggers.


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Re: Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

Postby mitchiemasha » Saturday October 15th, 2016 10:03am

It's a magical thrown dagger... the magic makes sure it inflicts 1bp, no matter what, 1 time, then the magic is gone.

You do have the problem with writting it in with the treasure search features. One can't search corridors for treasure. The easiest solution, in writing, is to bolt it on to weapons not treasure. "a lost weapon is found if the area it was thrown in is searched" if standardising to HQ wording "A lost weapon is found if the room or corridor is searched". I replace room or corridor with area, unless it's specifically 1 or the other.

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