Searching with monsters present--allowed!

[Decipher]

Daedalus, think you might be over examining the rules.

[Daedalus]

I'd say just examining them. If you don't take a search action, you won't find any hidden links, pitfalls, or gems in the rules. And now for some more over-examination...

This is because the Orc isn't visible to the Elf

What if I just overlook this? I think the Elf is aware of that Orc. Anything else just doesn't make sense.
He sees part of the Orc, he hears it, he even smells it probably (and this isn't meant to be Elf-specific) and if he doesn't, the Wizard will tell him: "Oh pansy-elf. In case you haven't noticed, there's another Orc right behind me."

See the bottom of this post about your house rule and how it relates to what I think is at work here for rationalization.

I just want to say that I've always played that way.
Hero looks down a corridor, ALL monsters along that corridor are put on the board.
I just do not get any other vibe from the rules. Of course you see a Chaos Warrior standing 7 squares behind an Orc when you look down a corridor, and for me,
"seeing" and "line-of-sight" has always been about "noticing" and "line-of-rough-overview" so to speak.

Oh man, I hadn't thought about looking down a corridor, but as you point out the "see" rule applies here as well. Here I go again. It's detailed on p.13 of the NA Instruction Booklet in two successive parts. The first is in Looking And Opening Doors:

As a Hero, while moving, you may
"look" down a corridor or through an
open door. Looking gives you the
opportunity to see what is directly
within you line of sight, such as closed
doors, blocked square spaces, and
monsters....

Note that "look" is quoted, setting it as a defined term with the parameters set in the text above. The second part is found under How Zargon Reacts To Movement:

...When a Hero "looks" down a corridor,
place on the gameboard any closed
doors, blocked square tiles, and
monsters that are directly within the
Hero's line of sight. (See page 15
"SEE" for clear line of sight.) When a
Hero opens a door, place on the game-
board the monsters, treasure chests,
and any other items that belong in that
room....

It is important to realize that the rules state a monster or Hero can obstruct line of sight to another figure, but this doesn't include a door or blocked square tile. This is because a door or blocked square tile uses a visible face or edge instead of the required center for a target. Therefore, when a Hero looks down a corridor, Zargon must place all doors and blocked square tiles that are directly within a Hero's line of sight. Intervening monsters have no effect on them.

However, only those monsters that are directly within the Hero's line of sight--visible using the "see" rule--may be placed. This means that monsters at the rear may be hidden from view in the corridor. Kill that Orc, and a Chaos Warrior can be placed behind it, ready for the next Hero or a retaliatory attack. This is rules as written. I'm not saying anyone has to play this, but I am saying it's worth considering. Maybe, just maybe, the author intended this.

Placing monsters in a room isn't governed by the "see" rule, and serves as a counterpoint highlighting the importance of observing the line of sight rule in narrow corridors. It seems a different game was intended for these different environments.

Even if a hero in that aforementioned scenario - looking down a corridor - doesn't see, say, a Goblin standing behind a Chaos Warrior (there you have a valid point), the CW will tell the Goblin "Hey, Orc-poo, look, a hero. Let's kill him!" and thus, the goblin is activated.
That's me as Morcar/Zargon, right there...

Yeah, you could activate the Goblin--and why not? The rules don't prevent a figure from moving to an opponent that isn't visible and attacking it from an adjacent square (or diagonally with the right weapon). Since figures are allowed to pass through friendly figures, the Evil Wizard/Sorcerer player could first throw a concealed, rearward Goblin rushing at a distant Barbarian to pin him down (making the Goblin visible). This would not only burn the Barbarian's attack on the Goblin, but also temporarily obscure line of sight to the Chaos Warrior. As the Goblin was slain the Chaos Warrior would be revealed one move closer and ready to strike first on the maniacally-cackling Evil Wizard/Sorcerer player's next turn. (Yeah, I know this rails against your sensibilities, but your post keeps feeding me ideas.)
______________________________________________________________________________________________

But closer to the thread topic as originally conceived by you, Daedalus, I had about the same thought and presented a little special rule here: http://www.yeoldeinn.com/hqforum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1765&hilit=optional+rules
Search in the Presence of Monsters
A Hero may search even though he can see a monster IF that monster has no way to attack that Hero until the beginning of that Hero's next turn.
(That means, for example the Hero can search, even though the monster can attack the other hero blocking its path, killing him, and then being free to move up to the searching hero... cause the monster's attack for that turn is done).
...For those thinking about the Searching in Presence of monsters (im)possibility. I'm aware of your (Daedalus') thoughts about it.

As I was aware of your ideas on how to handle things--I felt the timing was kinda funny, actually. Maybe it was part of my unconscious recognition of the issue--who knows.

Finally, I'll attempt to make sense of a Hero searching if the Orc merely isn't visible. I see the visiblility limitation as a two-way street. Not only does the Elf not "see" the Orc, but the Orc also can't "see" the Elf. It instead "sees" the Wizard and perceives him as the primary threat or victim as a default. This removes the threat onus from the Elf and allows him to search undisturbed while his comrade takes the fight (though general flaws about searching areas are apparent here). This is kind of like not having a way to attack the searching Hero until the beginning of the Hero's next turn (but not really, of course--it's more of an assumption that it's safe enough to search on the Elf's part.)

[knightkrawler]

Man, this thread makes me desperately print out that double-wide corridored game board by Flint & Co...
To edit and playtest the 14 original quests again, once more with feeling.

I think I'm starting that on Against the Ogre Horde. Once I get Heroscribe running with me anti-geek, that is...

Yeah, I know this rails against your sensibilities, but your post keeps feeding me ideas.

I'm happy to do so. My sensibilities stem from my aim to shorten things.
1 hour for a quest is enough. A game night should be 3 through 5 quests.

Two treasure searches for each room, markers for EVERYthing (Descent helps a lot) to keep track and avoid debates, hunting the heroes with my Spawning Monster idea, special rules like a skeleton's diagonal attack, double doors, double hallways... and Monsters-Activating-Monsters: this all makes for a slightly faster and less calculable game.

Is there anything worse than one hero fighting one monster, retreating, second hero steps in and attacks that same monster, monster dies, second monster is activated ("seen" ), and again: one hero against one monster, second hero against same monster.

These are exactly the kinds of situations I want to open up.
I'm re-writing the NA rules with my changes right now, by the way.

[Schmidt]

What if there is only one monster present and it is hit with "Sleep"? Can you search then?

[Goblin-King]

I'd say no according to RAW. A monster is a monster. It doesn't matter if it's asleep or not. Apply the logic that if it isn't mentioned that you specifically can do it, then you probably can't.
It would be an obvious thing to houserule/roleplay though.

[Daedalus]

I'd say it is possible to search for secret doors or traps in a room with a monster temporarily incapacitated by a Sleep spell. It\s possible for the same reason stated by me earlier. Simply place another Hero between the monster and the searching Hero so that he blocks line of sight. This satisfies the RAW requirement that no monster is visible. He minds the monster for the searching Hero so that he can finish his action undisturbed.

As Goblinking said, houseruling here would make sense if you want to make such a search possible even while an incapacitated monster is visible. The Elf spell Hypnotic Blaze paralyzes monsters for 3 turns. Relying on RAW here grates against the thematic effect of this spell. The EQP states in the introductory section, "...When in doubt, use your experience and imagination to make the best choice. Remember that you are the ultimate authority in you HERO QUEST world!"

[torilen]

This is a great thread.

That's it - I don't really have much to add at this point - I'm still letting it all sink in.

But this is a perfect discussion...this is what the Inn is all about.

[TMU]

I would also allow players to search while the monster is under a sleep spell, how would it affect you? IT'S SLEEPING!

[The Road Warrior]

I would also allow players to search while the monster is under a sleep spell, how would it affect you? IT'S SLEEPING!

What about a test roll to see if it wakes up?

e.g.
You search for secret doors. Roll 1combat die, if you roll a black shield the monster wakes up. If it wakes up it attacks in the same way as a wandering monster.

I think I might add this to a quest somewhere. It could be interesting if the monster was so strong you really wouldn't want to wake it up. Something like a dragon.

[TMU]

Or how about this:

Player finds an orc in a room, but it's sleeping. Then, if player searches for treasure or a secret door, a hole in the wall appears, few bricks fall off, and those drop to orcs head and it wakes up and calls for help?!