• Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby Daedalus » Thursday June 27th, 2013 6:07pm

After ruminating on the rules for line of sight, including the terms "see" and "visible", it occurs to me for the first time there is a loophole available to Heroes who wish to search a room for traps or secret doors while it still contains one or more monsters. I'll open with the NA Instruction Book, p.15:

Image

I just want to consider the Elf, Wizard, and Orc that isn't visible directly to the right. Now check the relevant search rule for secret doors on p.17, found under How A Hero Searches For Secret Doors:

    * As a Hero , you can only search for
    secret doors if there are no monsters
    visible to you.

Likewise, the rule for searching for traps on p.18 states the same under How A Hero Searches For Traps:

    * As a Hero , you can only search for
    traps if there are no monsters visible
    to you.
As long as the Wizard obstructs the Orc, the Elf can search for either secret doors or traps on his turn. This is because the Orc isn't visible to the Elf, satisfying the search rules. This proves particularly helpful in the case of trap-guarding monsters, as that Evil Sorcerer player strategy can now be countered by a pair of Heroes. One Hero makes the monster not visible to the rear Hero while the rear Hero searches for traps. Hell, disarming a trap mentions nothing about monsters, so a discovered trap could be avoided, jumped, or even disarmed by a team of Heroes while the trap-guarding monster helplessly waited for its turn.

It is also worth noting that a search for treasure is worded and thus handled differently. This search works as you would expect (p.16, How a Hero Searches For Treasure):

    * As a Hero, you may search a room
    for treasure only if the room is
    uninihabited by monsters. [edit in red]

Finally, for the EU players, the relevant rule on p.12 under Searching:

    ...Characters may not search if they are next to a monster or if there is a monster in the same room or visible in a passage....

Searches are more restricted in rooms, as none are possible while a monster is present. This is similar to searches for treasure in the NA rules. However, since treasure may be searched for in corridors using EU rules, it may be done with monsters present as long as they are obstructed (not visible). Searches for traps and secret doors may also be allowed in corridors with monsters that are obstructed.

I haven't heard of anyone using the rules to their advantage in this way before, but it seems like it is allowed.
..
UNCLE ZARGON
Image
WANTS.. YOU


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Editor-in-Chief
Daedalus
Dread Ruleslawyer

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 4736
Images: 14
Joined: Monday May 9th, 2011 2:31pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby knightkrawler » Thursday June 27th, 2013 6:26pm

Daedalus wrote:This is because the Orc isn't visible to the Elf


What if I just overlook this? I think the Elf is aware of that Orc. Anything else just doesn't make sense.
He sees part of the Orc, he hears it, he even smells it probably (and this isn't meant to be Elf-specific) and if he doesn't, the Wizard will tell him: "Oh pansy-elf. In case you haven't noticed, there's another Orc right behind me."

I just want to say that I've always played that way.
Hero looks down a corridor, ALL monsters along that corridor are put on the board.
I just do not get any other vibe from the rules. Of course you see a Chaos Warrior standing 7 squares behind an Orc when you look down a corridor, and for me,
"seeing" and "line-of-sight" has always been about "noticing" and "line-of-rough-overview" so to speak.

Even if a hero in that aforementioned scenario - looking down a corridor - doesn't see, say, a Goblin standing behind a Chaos Warrior (there you have a valid point), the CW will tell the Goblin "Hey, Orc-poo, look, a hero. Let's kill him!" and thus, the goblin is activated.
That's me as Morcar/Zargon, right there...

______________________________________________________________________________________________

But closer to the thread topic as originally conceived by you, Daedalus, I had about the same thought and presented a little special rule here: http://www.yeoldeinn.com/hqforum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1765&hilit=optional+rules
Search in the Presence of Monsters
A Hero may search even though he can see a monster IF that monster has no way to attack that Hero until the beginning of that Hero's next turn.
(That means, for example the Hero can search, even though the monster can attack the other hero blocking its path, killing him, and then being free to move up to the searching hero... cause the monster's attack for that turn is done).
...For those thinking about the Searching in Presence of monsters (im)possibility. I'm aware of your (Daedalus') thoughts about it.
HQ - Heroes & Villains (Dropbox-download link) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jgj0kzsys9w38oh/AAA_VEHx6vMv4HKRX7IiOWTFa?dl=0
Feedback http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3560
Gallery http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1972&hilit=knightkrawler+gallery&start=200
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've found a way of paying off old debts:
Always make more promises than you can break.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Cheese Baron
knightkrawler
The Furry Blue Derailer

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5822
Images: 27
Joined: Friday May 25th, 2012 2:26pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby chaoticprime » Thursday June 27th, 2013 6:42pm

I was unaware this was a grey area. "Line of Sight" rules are among the most important in the game. There seems to be a trend among some fans of the game where they start throwing out home rules without fully understanding of the rules that already stand, especially those using present singular 1st-person auxiliary verbs.


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in a Miniature Exchange. Zealot Miniatures: Twisting Catacombs Kickstarter Backer
User avatar
chaoticprime
Practically Lives Here

Swordsman
Swordsman
 
Posts: 1939
Images: 0
Joined: Sunday February 10th, 2013 3:38am
Location: Kansas City
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby knightkrawler » Thursday June 27th, 2013 7:07pm

chaoticprime wrote:especially those using present singular 1st-person auxiliary verbs.


i don't even get what you mean by that.
HQ - Heroes & Villains (Dropbox-download link) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jgj0kzsys9w38oh/AAA_VEHx6vMv4HKRX7IiOWTFa?dl=0
Feedback http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3560
Gallery http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1972&hilit=knightkrawler+gallery&start=200
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've found a way of paying off old debts:
Always make more promises than you can break.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Cheese Baron
knightkrawler
The Furry Blue Derailer

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5822
Images: 27
Joined: Friday May 25th, 2012 2:26pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby chaoticprime » Thursday June 27th, 2013 8:26pm

knightkrawler wrote:
chaoticprime wrote:especially those using present singular 1st-person auxiliary verbs.


i don't even get what you mean by that.


I can't decide to know, either.


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in a Miniature Exchange. Zealot Miniatures: Twisting Catacombs Kickstarter Backer
User avatar
chaoticprime
Practically Lives Here

Swordsman
Swordsman
 
Posts: 1939
Images: 0
Joined: Sunday February 10th, 2013 3:38am
Location: Kansas City
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby Redav » Friday June 28th, 2013 1:08am

From reading the rules literally, this might be possible however in the spirit of the rules, I'm not convinced it is.
Campaign Status
EU Group: Kellar's Keep - The Dwarven Forge
NA Group: The Gathering Storm - Barak Tor - Barrow of the Witch Lord

Project's Status
Rules: House Rules and Clarifications are open for discussion
Campaigns: Thinking
Alternate Mini's: Planning and acquiring
Painting: I've started painting... :o


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Zealot Miniatures: Twisting Catacombs Kickstarter Backer Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Redav

Storm Master
Storm Master
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Saturday June 22nd, 2013 6:28pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby Goblin-King » Friday June 28th, 2013 1:36am

Well... RAW this seems legit.
However it is somewhat taken out of context. I think those LOS rules are in place for targeting monsters with arrows/spells.
Obviously you can't shoot an arrow through the wizard, but that doesn't mean you can't see past him.
Seems a little strange if you can search for traps in a long corridor and perhaps find a trap (maybe even further away than the orc?) - yet you still can't see the orc.

I don't think I would allow - Good find though! Would love to have you as a game tester/breaker ;)


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges.Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Ye Olde Judge Dredd
Goblin-King
Really looks like David Bowie

Frozen Horror
Frozen Horror
 
Posts: 3545
Images: 85
Joined: Monday September 26th, 2011 2:54pm
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group Member Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby Redav » Friday June 28th, 2013 1:52am

Goblin-King wrote:However it is somewhat taken out of context. I think those LOS rules are in place for targeting monsters with arrows/spells.

I too originally thought this however the searching rules do mention monsters and whether they are visible.

I won't allow searching if a monster is visible in the same passage. I dare say some will argue that if a monster is anywhere on the board, it is visible and therefore you can't search. Rules are always open to interpretation.
Campaign Status
EU Group: Kellar's Keep - The Dwarven Forge
NA Group: The Gathering Storm - Barak Tor - Barrow of the Witch Lord

Project's Status
Rules: House Rules and Clarifications are open for discussion
Campaigns: Thinking
Alternate Mini's: Planning and acquiring
Painting: I've started painting... :o


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Zealot Miniatures: Twisting Catacombs Kickstarter Backer Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
Redav

Storm Master
Storm Master
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Saturday June 22nd, 2013 6:28pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby Goblin-King » Friday June 28th, 2013 2:47am

There's a difference between what the players can see and what the heroes can see ;)


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges.Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Ye Olde Judge Dredd
Goblin-King
Really looks like David Bowie

Frozen Horror
Frozen Horror
 
Posts: 3545
Images: 85
Joined: Monday September 26th, 2011 2:54pm
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group Member Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Searching with monsters present--allowed!

Postby Daedalus » Saturday June 29th, 2013 2:26am

Redav wrote:From reading the rules literally, this might be possible however in the spirit of the rules, I'm not convinced it is.

I don't see the spirit of the rules as much as the split soul of the rules. Hero Quest wants to simply replicate the dungeon-crawling aspect of a fantasy roleplaying game, but it also wants to be a boardgame with light tactical possiblities. Sometimes those aims contradict each other. MB was fine with this because they were able to tap the markets for both styles. It works for us as well because it gives us something to debate about. :)

I'm pretty sure most people would never even consider this tactical exploitation because there isn't a need. They already get what they are looking for with the dungeon simulation aspect of the game. The intuitive sense that a Hero can't search while a threat is present is enough, so the link isn't made between the search and line of sight rules.

Goblin-King wrote:Well... RAW this seems legit.
However it is somewhat taken out of context. I think those LOS rules are in place for targeting monsters with arrows/spells.
Obviously you can't shoot an arrow through the wizard, but that doesn't mean you can't see past him.
Seems a little strange if you can search for traps in a long corridor and perhaps find a trap (maybe even further away than the orc?) - yet you still can't see the orc.

I don't think I would allow - Good find though! Would love to have you as a game tester/breaker ;)

I agree that there is a logical inconsistency here, but the problem is endemic with how searches are handled using assumed movement. Dungeon realism is again sacrificed when searching in a long corridor for a secret door with an intervening, undiscovered trap. Somehow the further secret door is discovered while the nearer trap is inexplicably avoided. Secret doors are defined on p.17 of the Instruction Book: "Secret doors are hidden portals that cannot be seen when you, as a Hero, 'look' into a room or down a corridor. ...You will not discover a secret door unless you search for one." This tells me that they can't be found by simply looking past the trap, but are assumed to be moved to as part of a search. Yet, because the trap was ignored, the secret door must have been located by some kind of special "peering". :roll: I, for one, am going to houserule searching altogether. But I'd like to try playing this loophole for a probationary period to see how it affects gameplay. Maybe it's worth keeping.
..
UNCLE ZARGON
Image
WANTS.. YOU


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Editor-in-Chief
Daedalus
Dread Ruleslawyer

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 4736
Images: 14
Joined: Monday May 9th, 2011 2:31pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Next

Return to Official Rules

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests