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Daggers

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Daggers

Postby knightkrawler » July 31st, 2013, 10:57 am

I do. I houseruled that projectiles can be fired or thrown if an unobscured line can be drawn between the chest of the attacker and the chest of the victim.
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Re: Daggers

Postby Goblin-King » July 31st, 2013, 12:13 pm

Yes, I would allow throwing over tables.
And all the furniture except the bookcases and cupboards.


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Re: Daggers

Postby Sjeng » July 31st, 2013, 1:01 pm

I don't know if I said it before here, but we houserule that you can fire or throw any ranged weapon over a table, for a penalty of 1 combat die. The table blocks half of the monster, so your chances of hitting it are reduced. Makes sense to me.
High furniture obviously not allowed. So a 1 point dagger would be pointless, but a crossbow would be allowed for 2 CD.
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Re: Daggers

Postby Big Bene » August 1st, 2013, 2:35 am

Guybrush Threepwood wrote:Talking daggers: Do you allow throwing daggers over a table?

Yes. The effects of furniture are practically not covered in the original rules, and it's tempting to make houserules fo that. But in fact, it's just another case of the ingenious simplicity that makes HQ so great. For "low" furniture (tables etc.) there's no effect mentioned in the rules, so it has no effect in the game - doesn't block line of sight or shooting. As for "high" furniture (cupboards, fireplace), it is always placed at the walls in all official quests, so blocking LoS is out of question anyway.
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Re: Daggers

Postby Sjeng » August 1st, 2013, 2:58 am

Big Bene wrote:
Guybrush Threepwood wrote:Talking daggers: Do you allow throwing daggers over a table?

Yes. The effects of furniture are practically not covered in the original rules, and it's tempting to make houserules fo that. But in fact, it's just another case of the ingenious simplicity that makes HQ so great. For "low" furniture (tables etc.) there's no effect mentioned in the rules, so it has no effect in the game - doesn't block line of sight or shooting. As for "high" furniture (cupboards, fireplace), it is always placed at the walls in all official quests, so blocking LoS is out of question anyway.

That's actually not true. There are quests where the bookcases and cupboards are used as room dividers.
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Re: Daggers

Postby Big Bene » August 1st, 2013, 8:39 am

Sjeng wrote:That's actually not true. There are quests where the bookcases and cupboards are used as room dividers.
Really? Can't remember any... Should have looked it up before posting :oops:
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Re: Daggers

Postby Malcadon » August 1st, 2013, 2:58 pm

In my games, if a figure is partly obstructed by a wall corner, pillar, furniture, doorways, water (while swimming), another figure, etc., then the target is granted an extra Defense Die, while a figure standing above an enemy (on a table or cliff), then the attacker gets an extra Attack Die. If a figure is standing at the edge of a forest area (see Dragon Strike maps) and is attacked by someone outside of it (range or melee), the target also gets the bonus Defense Die for cover - two squares in, the target would be out of view. The same bonus also applies when someone at the bottom of a cliff or pit is attacking someone at the top, but the guy on top also gets a bonus Attack Die for elevation - like the forest, if the figure at the top moves back a space, it would also be out of view.


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Re: Daggers

Postby Guybrush Threepwood » August 2nd, 2013, 5:28 am

Sjeng wrote:I don't know if I said it before here, but we houserule that you can fire or throw any ranged weapon over a table, for a penalty of 1 combat die. The table blocks half of the monster, so your chances of hitting it are reduced. Makes sense to me.
High furniture obviously not allowed. So a 1 point dagger would be pointless, but a crossbow would be allowed for 2 CD.


I like this solution! :P

I must admit that in this special case EU-Rules are at least clearer because characters do always have line of sight inside a room (p. 11): So spells and ranged attacks would always hit inside a room.
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Re: Daggers

Postby Daedalus » August 19th, 2013, 3:57 pm

The EU rules work great for the Quests published in Europe in this regard. As Sjeng noted, there are Quests that place a bookcase or cupboard as room dividers. Both that I discovered are in the EQP. Quest 1 has a cupboard but no monsters, but Quest 4 has a cupboard and a bookcase with several monsters in the central room. The EU rule breaks down when applied to this NA Quest, as it's possible for a Hero to cast a spell, fire a crossbow, or throw a dagger at a monster behind a bookcase or cupboard (or both).

Using rules-as-written, the NA rules also seem to break down. Only a wall, closed door, Hero, or monster are listed as obtructions for line of sight. However, the leading text for this section dealing with visible Heroes and monsters is headed with "A Good Rule of Thumb:" That phrase implies the listed obstructions are examples that may be extended as a guide for similar situations.

The important comparison to be extended to furniture using rule of thumb is found in the accompanying diagram in that section. Specifically, an Orc located halfway around a corner is shown to be visible to the Elf by a clear line-of-sight line, even though the line just touches a corner. This 50/50 visibility limit can also apply to Heroes or monsters blocked by furniture, but the limiting dividing line is now the top edge of the piece of furniture, rather than the vertical edge of a wall.

Things can get dicey quickly with determinations of what constitutes half a figure, so a fair amount of gamesmanship is needed when using the third dimension. Some may want to get down to eye level with the figures, but for others this would be too much. I'd say if it can be simply determined by looking at the table that a figure is mostly blocked by a piece of furniture, then it isn't considered visible for purposes of targeting. Bookcases and cupboards at least make all figures not visible. Shooting over tables should work for most figures, but maybe not Goblins and the Dwarf. Other furninture such as alters and thrones can also keep figures from being visible.

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A Hero in a pit trap won't block line of sight. This isn't specifically stated in the rules, but the rule of thumb principle covers this common sense situation, as well. A less clear example of line of sight can occur with short figures blocking tall figures, such as a Goblin standing before a Gargoyle. I wish I could get at my minis right now, but I'll go out on a limb and guess a Goblin blocks a tad less than half of a Gargoyle's height when viewed from the front, parallel to the table. This vertical discrepency can actually override the basic blocked line as drawn through the center of the square the Goblin is on because the parallel line would pass over the Goblin's head for most of the viewable Gargoyle figure. This makes at least half of the figure visible, just like the Orc in the diagram, but the plane of view is rotated 90 degrees.
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Re: Daggers

Postby knightkrawler » August 19th, 2013, 4:10 pm

Daedalus wrote:I'd say if it can be simply determined by looking at the table that a figure is mostly blocked by a piece of furniture, then it isn't considered visible for purposes of targeting. Bookcases and cupboards at least make all figures not visible. Shooting over tables should work for most figures, but maybe not Goblins and the Dwarf. Other furninture such as alters and thrones can also keep figures from being visible.


Exactly. Which is why I ruled "that projectiles can be fired or thrown if an unobscured line can be virtually drawn between the chest of the attacking miniature and the attacked miniature's chest".
Or "eyes", whatever floats your boat. But that's the translation of my German text.

Also, I simply made a chart for the different furniture types with stats for "blocks LOS" yes/no, "Movement points" to climb over, additional stats/special rules...
This chart is for optional use.
The chartless version uses only the aforementioned rule.
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