Pass through rock - furniture and monsters

[Big Bene]

What of a multiple level dungeon? Pass through the floor could work. Call it a 'fair escape' option?

Call it "opening Pandora's box".
If you allow passing through the floor, the caster must obviousely be able to control vertical movement, or he would sink into the ground whereever he goes and stands. So it would be just as possible to step into the wall and elevate one level up, to pass monsters and wooden funtiture by diving through-under them, to escape a pit trap by going "upstairs" through the adjactant rock...

I would say, don't try to make HQ a RPG (beeing a GM for 30 now myself, having got my first RPG at christmas 1984). One of it's geatest advanatages is it's simplicity. Of course, everyone can play as he/she sees fit, and I'm all for including RPG elements into HQ to spice it up. You will find out realtively fast what works best wth your group of players. But if my opinion counts, do not try to change HQ into a full RPG. If that is what you want, play a pen-and-paper RPG, not a dungeon crawler, or you will never be satisfied.

[cynthialee]

That is an unfair accusation boys.
I posited a couple of simple questions and now I am 'turning it into an RPG...'

[knightkrawler]

That is an unfair accusation boys.
I posited a couple of simple questions and now I am 'turning it into an RPG...'

Don't worry. It's the most used reproach on this here forum.

[whitebeard]

That is an unfair accusation boys.
I posited a couple of simple questions and now I am 'turning it into an RPG...'

Agreed, you are doing no such thing. This issue is up to the GM. HQ is an awesomely simple game but the simple rules lead to a good bit of ambiguity. The GM should just provide a short answer and not allow arguments. Being creative with what you've got does not make it an RPG. I like leaving it open and seeing what other people do.

I had allowed characters to pass through "anything", at first thinking that the spell was altering a property fundamental to the earth… the solidity of the effected character. But after reading the thread, I see the error of my ways with Veil of Mist being a redundant and far weaker spell. It is tough to find issue with the balance of the spell deck, but the wizard is so often played as a weakling (which he should not be), I would just give it to him. I'm going to resolve this issue by not allowing the pass through rock effected character to take any damage or be attacked in the turn in which this spell is in effect. So "pass through anything" (corporeal form) is the result. This gives a clear tactical/situational difference to "Veil of Mist" which should work well. E.G. Veil of mist allows you to run past a monster and attack from the rear, while you basically lose your combat turn with pass through rock.

"Pass Through Anything" is an important change (and I agree it is a huge change) to this spell and is all but required if you play on a forest board or other environment. The alternative in a outdoor setting is to allow the effected character to go subterranean, which is not such a bad idea either.

"Seeing the inevitable death of all of his companions, the wizard casts pass through rock on himself and moves to occupy the same location as the boss monster at the end of his turn, in an attempt to instantly kill both." If one of my players, did this, I would be impressed with the cleverness and allow it!!! Of course Zargon on his turn would move the boss (if possible) to another square and if not…

Under "pass through rock" rules, if the GM decides that the gargoyle is in fact made of stone, he should allow it. If it is decided that it is a creature with enchanted stone skin or skin which does not even resemble stone when animated, then certainly not. It is the GMs universe so there really can be no argument. I would make the caster try it before giving the answer though. Perhaps the player can ask based on the last gargoyle they fought… "When we killed it, did it have guts or crumble into rubble?" and "Does this gargoyle look similar?" To give some non definitive idea of success. Talking to the GM and allowing such discussions does not make it an RPG, talking to the GM with one or both "in character"… that makes it an RPG. HQ does not allow for interrogating monsters, encountering NPC's without scripted one-line dialog, or talking back to Mentor. Again, short definitive answers (independent of some universal rule) is all you need to keep HQ going.

in my humble opinion

[Big Bene]

That is an unfair accusation boys.
I posited a couple of simple questions and now I am 'turning it into an RPG...'

You seem a bit over protective to me here. I did not attack you in any way. You are referring to your RPG experiences quite often in your posts, and you have described your style of leading games of HQ as the evil wizard elsewhere, which leans heavily to the RPG side. And I never said this is a bad thing. I would probably do likewise if i had the opportunity to play more often. I just wanted to remind you and veryone, including myself, that HQ is still a board game and to include too much RP probably doesn't do it good. I did not accuse you to do so, I just saw a tendency in your posts and stated my opinion. Even if I would have thought you were consciousely trying to make HQ into a RPG, I don't see my previous post as an attack. It is just a friendly comment.

Now, as for passing through the floor, this is a typical idea a pen-and-paper RPG wizard player would come up with. An for such a game, it would be well suitted, as the GM can define the results ad hoc, whereas in HQ, where all actions are much more bound by the rules, all the possibilities I mentioned (elevating, diving) would require special rules to deal with. So I thought it was correct to point out that HQ is not a RPG (and should therefore be kept simle) at this point.

I would be much more interested in your opinion to my thoughts about the "passing through the floor" than in such personal hick-hack. I find the idea actually interesting, I just think it causes too many open questions, rule-wise. Perhaps you already have a solution, so please tell us.

[Sjeng]

Old subject but I'd hanle it like this...

The Hero casts Pass Through Rock, here we go...
He CANNOT pass through monsters or furniture. All standard movement rules still apply. in my opinion, the spell does precisely as it says and allows the hero to (in addition to standard movement rules) pass through solid rock. If he were surrounded by monsters on all sides, he can't move, otherwise you grant Pass Through Rock the performance of Swift Wind. The Hero also can't move through furniture as per standard moovement rules.

Now we get to actual movement. I handle it on a square by square basis. The hero moves his piece one square and each time he does, Zargon responds. If the Hero can see anything, objects are set up accordingly (monsters, furniture etc). If the hero steps onto a trapped square, the trap resolves, possibly ending his turn. If the hero moves into a square that Zargon knows is occupied by any object the hero normally can't share a square with (monster, furniture etc) Zargon simply tells the hero, "You cant move there" and the hero must return to his previous square and select a new path.

So the answer is simply... the hero shouldnt be moving into squares he ordinarilly cant occupy. Its Pass Through Rock, not Pass Through Whatever You Feel Like. Moving into legal squares and all that mumbo jumbo shouldn't be happening, at least not in my games.

This is quite the solution! Gonna have to remember this.

[el_flesh]

So sorry, but HQ is indeed an RPG. Just a very simplified one to snare the young kiddies as future customers of full blown D&D or something. It was a stroke of marketing genius, and one wonders where the copycats are these days.

I think the issue would be "Do I want to be anal about the rules or not."
Some people love to improvise as they go along, and some detest it.
That's all there is to it.

I hope cynthialee has been inspired by some of the answers in here - there are some great ones for improvisers, and I guess the ones for purist rule followers are also good for them!

[knightkrawler]

So sorry, but HQ is indeed an RPG. Just a very simplified one to snare the young kiddies as future customers of full blown D&D or something.

So sorry, but I don't think that's true. MB at the time had - to my knowledge - nothing to do with RPG, as didn't Games Workshop.
If anything, it was supposed to be an entry point into wargames, not RPG. If you talk about marketing genius, it was all about entering the world of Warhammer and BUYING SHITLOADS OF MINIATURES more than anything else, although it might have been somewhat beside that point and more into the RPG direction in retrospect.

[Big Bene]

Not sorry at all
I know that your (@Flesh) group play a very roleplaying-heavy game of HQ, and seeing how it oviousely worked out for you and your friends, holding together a great campeign for a long time, I think Beernut did an excellent job and did just the right thing. But honestly, you can't denie that you have moved quite far away from the original HQ. This was an improvement in regards to your concept, but not necessarily an objective improvement of the game per se.
I remember when you moved on from using the Heroquest board to modular roomsets and from there to simply sketching the map on a square pattern paper. For you, this was a removement of restrictions and a big step forward. But this doesn't take away the sheer ingeniousity of the layout of the original gameboard, which in all it's simplicity lent itselft to represent all kinds of (indoor) environments.

Speaking of the original HQ, it is of course based on RPGs, at least thematically, and you can call it a RPG anytime. It just depends on how you define a RPG. But if by RPG you mean a full fledged pen and paper system like D&D, The Dark Eye, Warhammer roleplay, GURPS, the Chaosium games, etc, where a world is simulated in the fantasy of the players, and every action is allowed, at least to try, then you can see a clear distinction between those games and HQ. As a game, by all the features games are normally classified by, by its materials, mechanics and ruleset, HQ is a boardgame. Think of an alien ethnologist who researches the games of the planet earth. He has the same categories as we have, such as card games, board games, sport games, free games (children playing cowboys), and roleplaying games. How would he classify HQ?

I did not want to derail the thread and would still be interested in an answer from Cynthia or someone else to my thoughts about "pass through floor". Perhaps a mod can move this post and it's predecessors into a new thread "Is HQ a RPG", or the like?

[el_flesh]

It's a hybrid between board game and RPG game.
There HAD to have been meetings about $$$$ projections in the development phase, no matter who owned what at the time.
All this to say that if a player wants to creatively use a spell, an innovative and adaptable DM will allow it, maybe requiring a D6 check. A purist won't. Which one are YOU, cynthialee / Big Bene?