AGAINST THE OGRE HORDE discussion

[HispaZargon]

I'm curious what AH would say re: the multi-attack question. The way I regard them (I use the 1992 draft notes as a guide) they are a big attack. So Warbear is 8, Heroic brew is double what the Hero is attacking with, etc. But that's not how Avalon Hill interprets those rules, so how would they regard them in the Tournament Arena?

Someone should ask Doug @WanderingMonster on Avalon Hill discord to see what he says.

Well, actually AH already stated how they wanted the double attack rule to be played, they already defined it in the Rogues rules.

[Kurgan]

So a Polar Warbear has a power of 4, not 8.

[wallydubbs]

So a Polar Warbear has a power of 4, not 8.

To mark the Polar Warbear as the same strength as a Dread Warrior is uneven. An even bigger contrast would be an Orc and Yeti. This is quite uneven.
I made up a comparitive points system to even out teams, taking into account not only attack dice, but defence, body and mind points, movement, spells, etc. The only issue is that the standard hero is around 14 points so tallying up groups may require a calculator.

[Kurgan]

Feels like they didn't really think too hard about characters outside the Game System/ATOH combo on this... but they knew we'd tinker with it on our own!

[JJJ00]

Got to say that I am rather disappointed that no effort was made to fix the text for Mind Lock and Dominate.

Just as in the original version, you have to infer that they work via an opposed die roll (by asking youself why on earth the defender is asked to roll at all) that works just like combat, where the defender's shields cancel the attacker's skulls, and it is the result after this comparison that the spells work from. In fact, the new version actually omits a sentence from Mind Lock's original text that, while not making it all perfectly clear, did at least set you on your way to the correct conclusion.

Another perfect opportunity wasted.

[Vorimir]

Yes, is amusing how they create some good content but at the same tine they seem unable to fix things that need a good rework. Take Frozen Horror as an example, but here we have some minor mistakes that seems just lazy.

[Kurgan]

Frozen Horror I can understand they were still in the "don't change anything if we can help it" mindset going by the fans wanting a reprint of the classic material, and by the time they realized fans wanted those quests "fixed" it was too late, already sent to the printers. So instead they gave us "Into the Northlands" and even tweaked some more within the Companion App version (see the warbear multi-attacks; also the Yeti hugs in the settings options). From here on they are feeling more free to tweak, but still having to strike that balance.

They will surely learn from this experience remaking "Wizards of Morcar."

Again with ATOH I think they are walking the tightrope of "preserve the original for nostalgia purposes" and "update it for the new system." I agree, in some areas they felt perfectly free to tweak (such as in the lore text about the Ogres) but in other places just left it alone or left it up to the individual game session (the issue of the sealed up trap rooms... though I'm glad they at least officially acknowledged it can be a problem!).

[Kurgan]

In fact, the new version actually omits a sentence from Mind Lock's original text that, while not making it all perfectly clear, did at least set you on your way to the correct conclusion.

Ah, which part was left out? That's an important detail.

The original version (on the token) read like this: "Mind Lock: The Chaos Sorcerer and defender both roll dice equal to their Mind points. The defender will be frozen for one turn for each skull scored by the Chaos Sorcerer."

The (original) the booklet further explains:

"Mind Lock
This spell allows a servant of Chaos to freeze a Hero's mind and prevent them from
taking any action. The Chaos Sorcerer makes a Mind Attack against its target by rolling
a number of Combat Dice equal to its Mind Points. Its target defends with as many
Combat Dice as they have Mind Points. The defender is frozen for one turn for each Skull
scored by the attacker. If no Skulls are scored against the target, the spell has no effect.
A Mind Locked character places one Mind Lock token on their character board for each turn
they are affected, removing one at the beginning of each of their turns. Having removed
a token, a frozen character may attempt to break the Chaos Sorcerer's hold by rolling one
Combat Die for each Mind Point. If they manage to roll three or more Skulls, they may remove
all remaining Mind Lock tokens from their character board. A frozen character may not move,
attack, or perform any other action, but they may defend against attacks using only one Combat
Die."

I don't have the remake box handy at the moment, so here's the German edition of the PDF booklet (english version isn't available yet), roughly translated:

Mind Lock

This spell can be applied to any target can be applied and allowed a Dread sorcerer, the thoughts of a hero. When the mental lock is applied both attackers and attackers as well as defender battle dice according to their intelligence points. For every skull that the attacker, the defender will be responsible for froze one round. If no skulls are found against the defender, the spell has no effect. One Frozen Hero throws 1 Defense die and may Move, attack, or perform any other action. This Hero draws a Mind Lock card for each round in which he is affected, and at the end of each round, in which he was frozen, returned a card to Zargon. When he returns a card, he can try to remove the ban by throwing the number of battle dice that corresponds to his intelligence points. In the case of a dice result, of three or more skulls, he gives all the remaining Mind Lock cards and the spell ends.

I'm reminded that in the remake ATOH quest book, unlike all the others, the new map symbols are not presented at the end of the booklet in the proper scale to copy and paste with the blank quest map. I guess they expect you to sketch them yourself by hand, or else hunt through the rest of the book (ex. pg 15) to find and clip out the proper images to scale.

[JJJ00]

In fact, the new version actually omits a sentence from Mind Lock's original text that, while not making it all perfectly clear, did at least set you on your way to the correct conclusion.

Ah, which part was left out? That's an important detail.

The (original) the booklet further explains:

"Mind Lock
This spell allows a servant of Chaos to freeze a Hero's mind and prevent them from
taking any action. The Chaos Sorcerer makes a Mind Attack against its target by rolling
a number of Combat Dice equal to its Mind Points. Its target defends with as many
Combat Dice as they have Mind Points. The defender is frozen for one turn for each Skull
scored by the attacker. If no Skulls are scored against the target, the spell has no effect.
A Mind Locked character places one Mind Lock token on their character board for each turn
they are affected, removing one at the beginning of each of their turns. Having removed
a token, a frozen character may attempt to break the Chaos Sorcerer's hold by rolling one
Combat Die for each Mind Point. If they manage to roll three or more Skulls, they may remove
all remaining Mind Lock tokens from their character board. A frozen character may not move,
attack, or perform any other action, but they may defend against attacks using only one Combat
Die."

The bit bolded.

[Kurgan]

The (original) the booklet further explains:

"Mind Lock
This spell allows a servant of Chaos to freeze a Hero's mind and prevent them from
taking any action. The Chaos Sorcerer makes a Mind Attack against its target by rolling
a number of Combat Dice equal to its Mind Points. Its target defends with as many
Combat Dice as they have Mind Points. The defender is frozen for one turn for each Skull
scored by the attacker. If no Skulls are scored against the target, the spell has no effect.
A Mind Locked character places one Mind Lock token on their character board for each turn
they are affected, removing one at the beginning of each of their turns. Having removed
a token, a frozen character may attempt to break the Chaos Sorcerer's hold by rolling one
Combat Die for each Mind Point. If they manage to roll three or more Skulls, they may remove
all remaining Mind Lock tokens from their character board. A frozen character may not move,
attack, or perform any other action, but they may defend against attacks using only one Combat
Die."

The bit bolded.

Thanks. Here's the english remake version:

(Mind Lock cards)

The attacker and defender each roll combat dice equal to their Mind Points. For each skull scored by the attacker, the defender is frozen for one turn. If no skulls are scored against the defender, the spell has no effect.

Here the term "scored" is used, which one could assume means one attacked, the other defended, but a skull got through.

(booklet)

Mind Lock
This spell may be cast on any one target and allows a Dread Sorcerer to freeze a hero's mind. When Mind Lock is cast, both attacker and defender roll combat dice equal to their Mind Points. For each skull rolled by the attacker, the defender is frozen for one turn. If no skulls are scored against the defender, the spell has no effect. A frozen hero rolls 1 Defend die and may not move, attack, or perform any other action. That hero takes a Mind Lock card for each turn they are affected, returning one card to Zargon at the end of each of their turns spent frozen. When they return a card, they may attempt to break the spell's hold by rolling a number of combat dice equal to their Mind points. On a roll result of three or more skulls, they return all remaining Mind Lock cards and the spell ends.(pg.10)

While it doesn't specifically say WHY the defender is also rolling combat dice, it is implied by the very terms used "attacker" (rolls attack dice) and "defender" (defend dice). Otherwise, why is the "target" rolling dice at all? Are they trying to Mind Lock the caster back? No, clearly not. Various terms are used for the same character... the hero, the defender, the target, but it's all the same. They shortened the word count, but really for no purpose because there's still trailing white space on the page.