• Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Discuss other HeroQuest expansion topics that do not fit into the above categories.

HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby HispaZargon » Monday November 22nd, 2021 12:14pm

EDITED: This new thread has been created due to the complexity of the discussed topic. All related messages about this topic already posted in thread What order should the quest packs be played? have been moved and/or adapted to this thread for clarity.

Hi, as I mentioned here, I have my own homebrew model to calculate the difficulty level of each quest. I open this thread in order to share the results I can obtain, explain how it works and describe any new improvements or updates I include in the model. For the moment, the model and its algorithm is just an analytical one, no software available yet, but it will be probably available in the future.

I have identified the current version of this model as HZ-model v.1.0.0. I consider this model just a simplified prototype since it only covers the difficulty linked to how many monsters and traps are shown in the quest map and their types. This model does not consider any special events, nor heroes rewards, nor equipment/gold found, nor potential visits to shops, etc. I will add all those details step by step in future revisions, but I think the current prototype is enough mature to provide an interesting big picture of ll the questpacks.

Then, according to HZ-model v.1.0.0, this is asummary of the results I have obtained up to now, if it could help you on deciding your questpacks' playing order:


SUMMARY TABLE OF QUEST PACKS DIFFICULTY POINTS:

Quest pack.....................Quests.....TOTAL.......AVERAGE
Game System......................14........60012..........4287
Kellar's Keep.......................10........56842..........5684
Return of the Witch Lord........10........61980..........6198
Against the Ogre Horde...........7.......118284.........16898
Wizards of Morcar..................5........71294.........14259
The Dark Company.................1........45423.........45423
Mage of the Mirror.................9.......149836.........16648
The Frozen Horror.................9.......169400.........18822
The Profecy of Telor..............13........55864..........4297
Spirit Queen's Torment...........14........62284..........4449
The Crypt of Perp. Darkness....10........64954..........6495


Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the classic questpacks (except The Dark Company), ordered in the classic order:

1_HZ-model_v0100_Classic_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty.jpg

Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the remake's questpacks, including the Mythic Tier ones, ordered in the order discussed in previous posts:

2_HZ-model_v0100_Remake_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_in_Chronological_Order.jpg

Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the classic questpacks (except The Dark Company) plus the Mythic Tier questpacks, ordered in the order discussed in previous posts:

3_HZ-model_v0100_All_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_in_Chronological_Order.jpg

Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the remake's questpacks, including the Mythic Tier ones, ordered according to their average quest difficulty:

4_HZ-model_v0100_Remake_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_in_Difficulty_Order.jpg

Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the classic questpacks (except The Dark Company) plus the Mythic Tier questpacks, ordered according to their average quest difficulty:

5_HZ-model_v0100_All_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_in_Difficulty_Order.jpg

According to these results, if we just follow a difficulty criterion (ignoring any chronological story), I think there is not too much difference in playing KK and ROTWL before or after POT and SQT, but I think TCOPD may be the last one to be played after those four remake expansions. Finally, about the rest of classic questpacks (ATOH, WOM, EQP & BQP) the model clearly suggests that they should be played much later, probably by really well equiped and experienced heroes.

About the HZ-model, I will share how it works in the future but I would like to firstly introduce more improvements and fixes so, this is what I can show for the moment. I use this model for many purposes, some examples: calibrate which quests can be played by less than 4 heroes; re-define the stats of some existing monsters like Ogres, Wolves, etc.; define leveling-up of heroes depending on which quests have they completed, etc.

REMARK: Notice that all previous charts have been obtained considering American version rules of HeroQuest and American version official stats for monsters. This means that, in order to obtain comparable difficulty results between questpacks, monsters of exclusive European expansions such as ATOH and WOM have been considered with equivalent stats as if they were American monsters (i.e. regular Ogre Warriors from ATOH expansion have been considered with the same stats as Ogre Warriors from EQP expansion).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by HispaZargon on Tuesday November 23rd, 2021 4:46am, edited 6 times in total.


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member
User avatar
Librarian-Analyst
HispaZargon
Inn's Guardian

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 1370
Images: 40
Joined: Friday October 12th, 2018 2:18pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Forum Language: Español
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby Kurgan » Monday November 22nd, 2021 12:45pm

I like the charts HZ! That must have taken some work... and it looks about right to me.

Then again, there is a way to get players ready for harder quest packs... give them starting gear (or enough starting gold to buy what they want).

Another trick would be providing some big potions (restores Body Points to maximum) like ATOH does when playing as a series.

I have even issued "random" equipment draws to players about to start fresh on a new quest pack with new heroes (they can freely trade or sell back the cards they get if they don't like them).

This is helpful. Spirit Queen's Torment basically gives the first player to die a second life as the Bard (assuming they didn't pick the Bard already). Prophecy of Telor permits one hero (could be the Wizard) to basically become immortal (spoilers) as long as at least one other hero survives to heal his body points above zero to complete the quest. Both of those are extra chances beyond the plain stats of monsters and traps for the quest.

Traps would be a lot harder IF the group was playing without the Dwarf (even Toolkits aren't as good for disarming traps). BQP and WOM allow for the hiring of mercenaries explicitly, if they can afford them of course, for up to 12 additional Hero body points per quest (not counting any healings that take place).

Of course things can change if you use NA rules for the EU quest packs (or vice versa). EU allows no revivals after death, but has most monsters with only 1 BP, and no potion hoarding between quests and ostensibly no selling stuff back to the Armory, only the Potion of Alchemy which is rare, in WOM to get extra cash beyond rewards or treasure searches).


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Chaos Warlock
Chaos Warlock
 
Posts: 4607
Images: 84
Joined: Saturday February 23rd, 2019 7:08pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby HispaZargon » Monday November 22nd, 2021 4:21pm

Yeaaaah, tooo muuuch wooork!!! hahaha.... I have counted quest by quest each monster and trap, and I have also considered as better as I could all their stats and game mechanics, of course including characters and special monsters, everything but with some hypotheses and simplifications of course... I have also calculated for each quest which are the rooms or map areas where heroes will find at the same time the higher concentration of monsters difficulty points, which I think it is another difficulty indicator (there are quests not too difficult in total number of monsters but you could find many of them in a couple of rooms, which is quite more difficult than finding them one by one through the map)- I also have comparisons of difficulty between EU and NA maps, monster stats and rules for the same quest in order to check how much difficult is NA edition versus EU one... but such stuff may be for other threads.

And, of course there are many ways to enhance the group of heroes... one of them could be allow them to hire mercenaries not only in BQP or WOM.


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member
User avatar
Librarian-Analyst
HispaZargon
Inn's Guardian

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 1370
Images: 40
Joined: Friday October 12th, 2018 2:18pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Forum Language: Español
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby Kurgan » Monday November 22nd, 2021 5:41pm

Dark Company is an interesting case.. it's really more like a four part quest (in theory you can re-visit each section and defeated monsters are respawned but special treasures are not... until you kill the two final "bosses"). There are two part quests in EQP and BQP (where you don't automatically regenerate all Body and Mind Points and spells). Dark Company does have ways to get healing and spells within those portions of the dungeon however. Many variables but it's an interesting overview.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Chaos Warlock
Chaos Warlock
 
Posts: 4607
Images: 84
Joined: Saturday February 23rd, 2019 7:08pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby HispaZargon » Monday November 22nd, 2021 5:48pm

Kurgan wrote:Dark Company is an interesting case.. it's really more like a four part quest (in theory you can re-visit each section and defeated monsters are respawned but special treasures are not... until you kill the two final "bosses"). There are two part quests in EQP and BQP (where you don't automatically regenerate all Body and Mind Points and spells). Dark Company does have ways to get healing and spells within those portions of the dungeon however. Many variables but it's an interesting overview.

Yes, those multiple-board quests have many variables to be considered. I have considered those cases as they were a single big quest, the reason why their difficulty points number is so high. Body Points full refill and details like that are so difficult to account, that's one of the reasons I have left outside the chart The Dark Company but maybe in future versions of the model could be account in some trust way.


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member
User avatar
Librarian-Analyst
HispaZargon
Inn's Guardian

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 1370
Images: 40
Joined: Friday October 12th, 2018 2:18pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Forum Language: Español
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday November 23rd, 2021 3:46am

HispaZargon wrote:REMARK: Notice that all previous charts have been obtained American version rules of HeroQuest and American version official stats for monsters. This means that, in order to obtain comparable difficulty results between questpacks, monsters of exclusive European expansions such as ATOH and WOM have been considered with equivalent stats as if they were American monsters (i.e. regular Ogre Warriors from ATOH expansion have been considered with the same stats as Ogre Warriors from EQP expansion).

I love your quantification and ordering of the expansions. Though you kept everything published NA monsters (I like), I feel reassessing AtOH with Phoenix's popular Ogre stats would prove more useful to Inn members as they tend to use 'em for AtOH. Wouldn't doing that flatten the curve down between CoPD and WoM, and wouldn't that be a good adjustment?
..
UNCLE ZARGON
Image
WANTS.. YOU


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Editor-in-Chief
Daedalus
Dread Ruleslawyer

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 4445
Images: 14
Joined: Monday May 9th, 2011 2:31pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby HispaZargon » Tuesday November 23rd, 2021 4:01am

Daedalus wrote:
HispaZargon wrote:REMARK: Notice that all previous charts have been obtained American version rules of HeroQuest and American version official stats for monsters. This means that, in order to obtain comparable difficulty results between questpacks, monsters of exclusive European expansions such as ATOH and WOM have been considered with equivalent stats as if they were American monsters (i.e. regular Ogre Warriors from ATOH expansion have been considered with the same stats as Ogre Warriors from EQP expansion).

I love your quantification and ordering of the expansions. Though you kept everything published NA monsters (I like), I feel reassessing AtOH with Phoenix's popular Ogre stats would prove more useful to Inn members as they tend to use 'em for AtOH. Wouldn't doing that flatten the curve down between CoPD and WoM, and wouldn't that be a good adjustment?

Yes, I also have such smoother variant of the chart, I will share it too as soon as posible with other options. As said, previous shown charts of ATOH and WOM results are direct transformations from EU questbooks to official NA monster stats.


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member
User avatar
Librarian-Analyst
HispaZargon
Inn's Guardian

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 1370
Images: 40
Joined: Friday October 12th, 2018 2:18pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Forum Language: Español
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday November 23rd, 2021 8:33am

Yeah, ATOH would be a lot harder if all the Ogres there had 10 BP (instead of the 1-5 of the original or the 3-5 of Phoenix's NA conversion)!


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Chaos Warlock
Chaos Warlock
 
Posts: 4607
Images: 84
Joined: Saturday February 23rd, 2019 7:08pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby HispaZargon » Tuesday November 23rd, 2021 9:32am

Kurgan wrote:Yeah, ATOH would be a lot harder if all the Ogres there had 10 BP (instead of the 1-5 of the original or the 3-5 of Phoenix's NA conversion)!

Yeah, of course... however as far as I know, Phoenix did not changed the stats of Ogre Warriors of EQP according to the ones he considered for ATOH ogres.


Rewards:
Wizard of Zargon Group Member
User avatar
Librarian-Analyst
HispaZargon
Inn's Guardian

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 1370
Images: 40
Joined: Friday October 12th, 2018 2:18pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Forum Language: Español
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group MemberScribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberArtists Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday November 23rd, 2021 10:22am

Yeah I think I misunderstood what you did there, thought you had upgraded the ATOH Ogres to EQP stats. My mistake.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Chaos Warlock
Chaos Warlock
 
Posts: 4607
Images: 84
Joined: Saturday February 23rd, 2019 7:08pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Next

Return to Other Expansion Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 1 guest