Ye Olde Inn

I’m about to run a AHQ-re-reforged campaign and one of my players showed me his Hero (a human -> Wizard - > Adept -> Mage with Amethyst spells) and commented that he is just going to cast “Alter Allegiance” all the time as it was such a great spell compared to everything else. Looking at the spell sheet I am fearful that this spell seems very overpowered in both reforged and original AHQ.

The wordings are:

Original AHQ and Enhanced AHQ
Roll a dice. The Wizard may pick that many enemy models within six squares. Each of the chosen opponents must make an Intelligence test. If the test is failed, the model changes side – it is now controlled by the Wizard player, and may even attack its former comrades. The effect lasts until the end of the next exploration turn, when the model reverts to enemy status and runs away.

Reforged
RANGE: 6
TARGET: A number of figures equal to the caster’s Intelligence
DURATION: Until the next exploration turn.
EFFECT: Targets must make an Intelligence test. If the test is failed, the figure now acts as a Henchman controlled by the caster. When the spell ends, the targets flee and are removed from the board.
RESTRICTIONS: Cannot affect named Enemies or Characters

In both rules it only uses a single spell component.

So considering most monsters have INT values of about 5-7, this hero is going to walk into a room, cast Alter Allegiance and convert 2/3 of the monsters to their side to fight for them. After the combat those converted monsters then instantly die. The hero has an INT of 11 and enhancing so, by reforged rules, can affect 11 monsters each time they cast and they are all at -1 to their INT tests.

To me that sounds super overpowered compared to many other spells.

What’s other people’s thoughts on if this spell is too strong and what are some options to reduce it’s power. Once idea I just had is that the models that “run away” don’t drop their loot so the party might not earn so much?

Maybe you can interpret "runs away" to mean runs out of the line of sight of the heroes and then recovers it's senses but doesn't die or disappear from the game. Perhaps it would forget what happened and would not pursue the heroes unless it sees them again.

Also, greywolf's house rules state:
"Alter Allegiance and Spirit Control do not affect Special Characters, Undead, Daemons or Heroes. These spells of the Amethyst College have great potential to be greatly disrupting to play in an adventure with an actual plot (as opposed to a random dungeon), and very frustrating if turned on the players. (What happens when 1d12 Heroes change sides? The whole party defects?) Therefore, as a house rule, assume that all Special Characters (defined at GM discretion) and all Heroes are immune -- only mere "henchmen" and "minions" are meant to be swayed by this, not powerful villains and heroes. Undead and Daemons are immune by virtue of being unaffected by psychology. This applies to "Alter Allegiance" as used by followers of Slaanesh as well."
( https://greywolf.critter.net/ahq/houser ... erules.htm )

Well I played a session a couple of days ago which only had a fairly small amount of actual dungeon time (other time was creating characters etc). We only had two lairs, the party stood at the door, the Amethyst wizard cast Alter Allegiance both times (range on the spell was 12 as the wizard used Enhancing to boost the range), then the party shut the door and waited.

The first room I tediously played out the combat but the altered monsters out numbered the enemy monsters 2/1 so they had no chance. Not a single attack could be directed at the heroes.
The second room the altered monsters also out numbered the enemy monsters 2/1, so this time I just immediately removed all the monsters and said the heroes win. Boring!

This was going to be the plan, stand at the door, cast the spell, wait for everyone to die/run away, move on to the next room. Rinse, repeat. The wizard had bought 14 spell components, so could do this all day.

So I'm starting to see where the problem lies. The Reforged version of the spell relies on INT for number of targets and INT for the range boost from enhancing, where as the original AHQ spell was a d12 targets at a range of 6. Because the Reforged rules significantly reduces the vale of core characteristics, the maximum INT that a starting wizard could have would be 7, meaning the spell could only affect 7 targets and only get a 10 square range (+4 from enhancing).

Using the Re-Reforged rules, the maximum INT of a starting wizard is between 9-12 (based off a d4 roll) so that makes the spell MUCH more powerful, affecting 9-12 targets at a range of 11-12. So it's Re-Reforged's "problem"! (This could be an overpowering problem that affects a variety of other spells or abilities in Re-Reforged, I'll have to keep an eye out)

Anyway, that was my experience of the spell as written. Game breaking! Now I'm going to start thinking of ways to balance it out before our next session.

Ok here are my ideas the balance out the Spell

Definitely going to put these in:

-- The Enhancing Ability will be reworded to only provide a numeric range boost of 50% of the original spell range. So a spell of 6 range becomes 9 range.
(this disconnects the enhancing effects from being based on the caster INT so will work in both Reforged and Re-Reforged versions)

-- The Alter Allegiance Spell has no effect on Undead, Daemons or other targets that have no soul.


The following are possible options that could be applied to the spell to reduce it's effectiveness. Just thinking of adding one of these.

-- The spell only affects a number of targets equal to half the casters INT
(might make the spell too weak in Reforged, but is a quick simple fix)

-- Targets of the spell may test on their INT or Bravery, whichever is higher.
(I like this option as it allows for weak creatures to be controlled but is less effective on bigger tougher monsters who may be dumb, but brave)

-- Targets of the spell may test on their INT at the start of each of their Player Turns to break free from the effects of the spell.
(I like this too as it allows to monsters to gradually stop being effected and rejoin the fight)

You could also require the wizard to pass an intelligence test every turn to maintain the effect of that spell... a separate wizard intelligence test for each monster he tries to control, and a monster intelligence test as well. So two tests would need to be passed per monster, similar to how Dwarf wizards must pass an intelligence test to cast any spell. You could also make that spell component more expensive or only available in smaller quantities.

b_0 wrote:You could also require the wizard to pass an intelligence test every turn to maintain the effect of that spell... a separate wizard intelligence test for each monster he tries to control, and a monster intelligence test as well. So two tests would need to be passed per monster, similar to how Dwarf wizards must pass an intelligence test to cast any spell. You could also make that spell component more expensive or only available in smaller quantities.

So one problem that I'm struggling with is that the "offending" wizard (and any other starting wizard in ReReforged) has an INT of 11 or 12 so will pass any INT check the vast majority of the time. So any additional INT checks that the wizard needs to make is just making more dice rolling for not much of a difference to the effect of the spell. While lots of dice rolling is a integral part of mini games, too much rolling slows everything down.

For that reason I'm currently leaning towards a fix that doesn't add more rolling.

The spell component suggestion makes a good point. For simplicity (this is how we played on the previous quest), I had told the wizard player that we were not going to use specific spell components, rather just have generic ones that could be used on any spell. But now that I'm feeling that magic might be overpowered allowing generic spell components like that. So I'm bringing back specific spell components. I think that should limit the power a bit as he won't be able use the same components on healing as for the offensive spells.

Neuralstasis wrote:Using the Re-Reforged rules, the maximum INT of a starting wizard is between 9-12 (based off a d4 roll) so that makes the spell MUCH more powerful, affecting 9-12 targets at a range of 11-12. So it's Re-Reforged's "problem"! (This could be an overpowering problem that affects a variety of other spells or abilities in Re-Reforged, I'll have to keep an eye out)

It shouldn't be more powerful than in AHQ. I'm afraid you're using the Reforged version of the spell with my variant, which will certainly bring about compatibility issues. It seems you missed the first item on my to-do list (see this post):

RECIVS wrote:*Slev’s campaigns, equipment, magic, and treasure may still need to be revised extensively. For example, Reforged implements a lowered PV scale, so the WS, ST, and TH modifiers provided by some of its artifacts and spells may need to be adjusted accordingly. Also, Slev’s Enemy Loot Table may need some tweaks, considering the changes implemented in this revision.

As you've found out, Slev's magic system needs major fixing. Overpowered (and underpowered) spells are relatively common in Reforged. See Slev's version of the Flames of the Phoenix spell, for example.

I'd stick to the original spells for the moment; the problem is with the Reforged version of the spell books after all. Anyway, I'm afraid the magic system is the last thing I'm getting into. Everything else needs to be working properly before I start with magic.

By the way, 14 spell components (350 GCs) seem like a lot. I assume you're using Reforged loot and treasure tables (is that correct?). On the other hand, I believe someone may have been exploiting doorways a bit too much.

My doorway-exploit fix could (might as well) alleviate the issue with Alter Allegiance. I'd add, though, that the spellcaster and the targets must be in the same dungeon section (room or passage) and in LOS, and that's it. Maybe I'd also add that the spellcaster can't move and cast the spell in the same activation. I'd need to test it, but I think those simple tweaks alone could pretty much solve the issue entirely while adding a layer of depth to the spell.

RECIVS wrote:It shouldn't be more powerful than in AHQ. I'm afraid you're using the Reforged version of the spell with my variant, which will certainly bring about compatibility issues. It seems you missed the first item on my to-do list (see this post):

Yeah the spell as written in Reforged is a less random that original AHQ, but it overpowered cos of the high base INT of the caster, particularity when comboed with enhancing which doubles the range and imposes a -1 to the targets INT test. I think the enhancing ability is crazy powerful even with the Reforged reduced stats. I think the caster should be able to apply ONE of the effects, not all of them. Getting further off track, I think allowing a starting character to have stats of 11 or 12 seems problematic. Maybe reduce the starting stat of INT and BR in re-reforged from 4 to 3?

RECIVS wrote:By the way, 14 spell components (350 GCs) seem like a lot.

They got 8 starting components, the spent all 150gc on 5 more. Maybe I should just punish them for not taking anything else into an expedition...

RECIVS wrote:Maybe I'd also add that the spellcaster can't move and cast the spell in the same activation.

Not a bad idea. Making it a ritual spell rather than cantrip would also cost 2 components to cast...

RECIVS wrote:s you've found out, Slev's magic system needs major fixing. Overpowered (and underpowered) spells are relatively common in Reforged. See Slev's version of the Flames of the Phoenix spell, for example.
I'd stick to the original spells for the moment; the problem is with the Reforged version of the spell books after all. Anyway, I'm afraid the magic system is the last thing I'm getting into. Everything else needs to be working properly before I start with magic.

I probably shouldn't cos of the effort involved, but I'm very tempted to do a full examination and rework of all the spells for balance and suitability. As with many things in AHQ, the original spell list for bright wizards is a mess of effects that do not seem very balanced or appropriate to the background material. Maybe I could call it AHQ - Resummoned.

Neuralstasis wrote:

RECIVS wrote:It shouldn't be more powerful than in AHQ. I'm afraid you're using the Reforged version of the spell with my variant, which will certainly bring about compatibility issues. It seems you missed the first item on my to-do list (see this post):

Yeah the spell as written in Reforged is a less random that original AHQ, but it overpowered cos of the high base INT of the caster, particularity when comboed with enhancing which doubles the range and imposes a -1 to the targets INT test. I think the enhancing ability is crazy powerful even with the Reforged reduced stats. I think the caster should be able to apply ONE of the effects, not all of them.

It's "crazy powerful" only because (I asume) you're allowing the casting of the spell regardless of position and line of sight. If that's the case, then I'm afraid you're just exploiting a flaw in the game system (namely the bottleneck issue). I suggest you apply my tweaks and see if the spell still feels overpowered to you.

Neuralstasis wrote:Getting further off track, I think allowing a starting character to have stats of 11 or 12 seems problematic.

None of my characters starts with stat scores of 11 or 12; they start slightly weaker than in AHQ. In any case, what's so problematic about it?

You don't need to limit anything other than ST (it can rarely get past 10 anyway). Keep in mind that a roll of 10+ always hits, so a WS score of 12 won't break the game (a T score of 12 won't break the game either with my fix). Even the least skilled model will have at least 1/4 chance of hitting (and wounding) the most skilled one, and I think that's how it's supposed to work to keep the game engaging even for the most developed characters.

I know the problem you mention may be with starting characters and tests, but, as posted, it shouldn't be an issue with Re-Reforged characters.

Neuralstasis wrote:Maybe reduce the starting stat of INT and BR in re-reforged from 4 to 3?

The 1d4 roll is a mechanic I added to preserve the essence and feel of the random character-creation process in AHQ (sometimes you'll roll high and sometimes low just as in the original). You may see randomness is absent in Slev's Hero-creation system, which is not the "feel" of the original game if you ask me.

My version of Magnus starts with IN9 (as he was lucky with the dice and has trained once already), so if you think it's too much, you may simply apply -2INT (or +2 instead of +1d4 during character creation). That would mean he couldn't train past IN10 in any case, though he may be able to use some other items and abilities to improve his INT.

As a point of reference, the original Magnus may start with higher INT than mine, and he may also reach higher stat values than mine. Although they both have acces to magic bonuses that may improve their INT, mine has access to abiliites that may also improve INT in other ways.

Neuralstasis wrote:

RECIVS wrote:By the way, 14 spell components (350 GCs) seem like a lot.

They got 8 starting components, the spent all 150gc on 5 more. Maybe I should just punish them for not taking anything else into an expedition...

No healing spells, herbs, or potions? How are you healing your adventurers then?

Neuralstasis wrote:

RECIVS wrote:Maybe I'd also add that the spellcaster can't move and cast the spell in the same activation.

Not a bad idea. Making it a ritual spell rather than cantrip would also cost 2 components to cast...

As I said, it could work only if you implement my doorway-exploit fix; it'd be pointless otherwise. By the way, I'd preferably apply the other restrictions I mentioned in my previous post above (the spell may only affect enemies in the same dungeon section and in LOS), as they could make encounters more interesting.

Neuralstasis wrote:

RECIVS wrote:As you've found out, Slev's magic system needs major fixing. Overpowered (and underpowered) spells are relatively common in Reforged. See Slev's version of the Flames of the Phoenix spell, for example.
I'd stick to the original spells for the moment; the problem is with the Reforged version of the spell books after all. Anyway, I'm afraid the magic system is the last thing I'm getting into. Everything else needs to be working properly before I start with magic.

I probably shouldn't cos of the effort involved, but I'm very tempted to do a full examination and rework of all the spells for balance and suitability. As with many things in AHQ, the original spell list for bright wizards is a mess of effects that do not seem very balanced or appropriate to the background material. Maybe I could call it AHQ - Resummoned.

Yes, it's a lot of work for one person. I've been tweaking Reforged for almost a decade now, and I haven't gotten into magic yet...but I'm not a quitter!

I'd stick to the original spells as much as possible, though. I don't think they're as unbalanced as you say. Could you please provide examples?

So, what loot and treasures tables are you using again?

Cheers for the discussion, nice to have someone interested. Bit of a problem with how i'm playing and our conversation is that I'm using the latest Reforged and the latest Re-Reforged, which is I believe is designed to be applied to the previous version of Reforged. I haven't used or read the previous Reforged so some of the references in the latest Re-Reforged and your suggestions above don't make quite make sense.
Things like:

RECIVS wrote:None of my characters starts with stat scores of 11 or 12; they start slightly weaker than in AHQ. In any case, what's so problematic about it?

My player just went Base (INT 4) human (+1) -> Wizard (+1) - > Adept -> Mage (+1) -> bonus point (+1) and got a base INT stat of 8. Then plus Re-Reforged's 1d4 would give a range of 9-12. Was the character creation system a bit different in the previous Reforged version?

and in the Re-Reforged PDF there's a number of mentions of specialisation to do with training, but I can't find any reference to specialisation in the current Reforged. So I'm bumbling through it making a lashed together monster of rules!

RECIVS wrote:The 1d4 roll is a mechanic I added to preserve the essence and feel of the random character-creation process in AHQ (sometimes you'll roll high and sometimes low just as in the original). You may see randomness is absent in Slev's Hero-creation system, which is not the "feel" of the original game if you ask me.

Each to their own, but I actually hate the idea of randomness with character creation. I don't like the idea that one player's character could be much better than another just cos they rolled better in their initial d4 rolls. I used my own system of a set of bonus point (1, 2 ,2 ,3, 3, 3) that they can distribute between WS, BS, TH, SP, BR and INT. The result is basically the same statistically except that no one can roll a "4".

RECIVS wrote:My version of Magnus starts with IN9 (as he was lucky with the dice and has trained once already), so if you think it's too much, you may simply apply -2INT (or +2 instead of +1d4 during character creation). That would mean he couldn't train past IN10 in any case, though he may be able to use some other items and abilities to improve his INT.

In the current Reforged it appears that you can train all of the core characteristics up to 3 points at an increasing gold cost, which would put values of above 10 pretty accessible. But again maybe this is a incompatibility with different versions.

RECIVS wrote:No healing spells, herbs, or potions? How are you healing your adventurers then?

Healing spell. And with enhancing as written, he can fully heal two heroes with each cast. The other heroes in the party have a few herbs to supplement. The power of his spells is going to be reduced now that I'm putting back in specific spell components.

RECIVS wrote:I'd stick to the original spells as much as possible, though. I don't think they're as unbalanced as you say. Could you please provide examples?

It more of an obvious issue when looking at all the spell books as a whole. Because the original AHQ spell books were created and released one at a time they don't seems to compliment each other. The bright wizard is supposed to be a wizard of fire and destruction, which can even be a danger to their team mates. But they still get a full powered heal spell and a resurrection spell? Shouldn't healing and resurrection be more limited to the less aggressive magic orders? which in turn should have less damaging spells?
Who would ever waste a spell cast on "Flight" or "The Bright Key" (as written in original AHQ)? What horrible spells compared to a simple fireball or heal.
The Amethyst spell "Soul Steel" gives a single bonus 1 toughness = Rubbish.
Why does the Light spell "sleep of ages" allow sleeping targets to be hit at +4 to hit, but the Amethyst Spell "Sleep" make the target have a WS count as 1 when attacking them. Why the different rules to attack a sleeping target? = Poorly thought out.
Reforged (no disrespect Slev) make the spells rather more boring. Every wizard now has access to heal and resurrect and a lot of the spells are called different things in different spellbooks but do exactly the same thing.

What I would like to see is wizards having to weigh up whether they want an offensive spell set, a healing spell set, a buff spell set, a debuff spell set etc. These could all be linked to the Warhammer background appropriate magic orders. It would be good to have more and less powerful versions of spell so that, for example a bright wizard would have a heal spell, but it can only heal a max of 5 wounds, whereas a Jade wizard would have a heal spell that healed unlimited wounds. There could be heal spells that healed 3 wounds to every target in adjacent squares, a group heal.

RECIVS wrote:So, what loot and treasures tables are you using again?

I'm using the ones as written in the latest version of Reforged.