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Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Shadzar » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 7:54am

StratosVX wrote:If the quests haven't changed from the original, then yes we may need to take down the quest books that are on the site. As for scans of the rules, it would be better to type out the sections you are comparing as opposed to scanning the rulebook and posting it here.


And then the confusion becomes greater. not only the wording in the opening post here.
posting copied AH HeroQuest material that hasn't yet been publicly unreleased by Hasbro. Offending material and links will be removed.

hasn't yet been publicly unreleased ????

But all previous content HASBRO has been giving away for free as is custom for them to make sure people that lose their game rules will always be able to play games without having to buy a new copy just for the rules, when HASBRO and all its subsidiaries stopped selling game parts like dice, playing pieces, and extra rulebook copies nearly 20 years ago

https://consumercare.hasbro.com/en-us/instructions?q=%2Fen-us%2Finstructions%2F&q=Hero+Quest

Original instructions:
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQuest.PDF

original game quest book:
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQuest,questbook.PDF
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Hero_Quest_Quest_Book.PDF

Kellar's Keep:
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQuestKellarsKeepQuestBook.pdf

Return of the Witch Lord:
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQiest-ReturnoftheWitchLordQuestBook.PDF
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Hero_Quest_Return_of_the_Witch_Lord_Quest_Book.PDF

Barbarian Quest book (Frozen Horror):
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQuest-BarbarianQuestBook,thefrozenhorror.PDF

Elf quest book (Magic mirror):
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/HeroQuest-QuestbookfortheElf,themagicofthemirror.PDF
https://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Hero_Quest_Quest_book_for_the_Elf,_the_magic_of_the_mirror.PDF

I seriously doubt HASBRO to remove those as it is part of their customer care even though the original game and expansions have been out of print for 30 years, yet they still wished people to have access as early s i found the copies of those books on the HASBRO website at least 6 years ago.

While copyright remains, HASBRO is not selling those older products, and have freely given them away during the time they did not own the Trademark, and part of those quest books are still possibly not fully owned by HASBRO as some references still belong to Games Workshop and cannot by copyright to HASBRO.

SO how could they be infringing when HASBRO has been giving them away freely for a decade or more, when HASBRO didn't even own the trademark to the IP at that time, Mon Design Publishing did?

I can understand new art, but the old quests are now defunct copyrights due to the loss of the trademark in some countries. Thus why it was recently at last I heard Spain the latest that Blaze said would be getting a possible retail version as HASBRO tries to gain the copyright in all territories.

This is just becoming more and more of a mess, and if HASBRO should seek to dismantle a place that has been providing what it has been providing for free for a decade or more, then it is likely to have NO future for HeroQuest as a product line if it, like T$R did, decides to attack its customers and fans.

so who owns the art to the old quest books? HASBRO should be owning it for the new ones as we have seen Rogar Hall has new art for monsters and furniture, mostly because they needed a replacement for Fimir, but likely due to upgrade as well as HASBRO doesn't have copyright to the original iconography anymore without GW consent?

I am actually surprised even Rogar, Telor, Durgin, or Ladril are even allowed as they might be names that GW owned from the original Instruction book as they appeared in a White Dwarf magazine, if i remember correctly? Yet we have Rogar's Hall, which means it belongs to or has something to do with the Barbarian Prince hero, and Prophecy of Telor, relating to our Wizard Hero by name.

can anyone show anything other than minis images? or do photograph copyrights hold true unlike when GW tried to charge everyone who took a picture of a Warhammer product with copyright infringement, but the courts ruled that a photograph, no matter what it is of, is copyright to the person who took it. (see that Wikipedia photograph taken by a monkey that the man wanted removed since the monkey stole his camera to take the picture.)

If people start getting banned en-masse from Ye Olde Inn for doing things they have been doing because they are unaware of what legal precedent a reprint with shaky copyright and trademark circumstances is, then Ye Olde Inn will also likely not last much longer, so clear delineation of what is and is not allowed needs to be given, not vague guesses.

Eve if RAW text comparison is done, that would be in violation of copyright as per SCOTUS:
Games rules cannot be copywritten, only their presentation


Which was a landmark decision in Wizards of the Coast lawsuit over trying to sue Pokemon Company for its "tap" mechanic, whereas WotC gained the trademark to the term "tap" but could not call infringement upon any game that has a mechanic that turns a card sideways. Many other HeroQuest rules are also generic things, but may have special names, and only such names can be trademarked or copyright, a word mark if you will.

People are being told by FedEx app that they should be seeing their games today, November 3rd, 2021, whether that is right wrong or indifferent, the information needs to be posted clearly what Ye Olde Inn will allow and not allow to be posted from known game components.

Nobody is wanting to violate HASBRO rights, at least nobody i have seen on Ye Olde Inn, others on YouTube are clearly doing that with new video game versions they are trying to spam in people's comments. But people need to know as this is now delving into very dark territory for Ye Olde Inn and all of its users.

https://support.google.com/legal/answer/4558992?hl=en
for those listed PDF files HASBRO gives freely on its website as part of its customer care I think those pre-existing things on Ye Olde Inn would constitute:
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

Uses that harm the copyright owner's ability to profit from his or her original work by serving as a replacement for demand for that work are less likely to be fair uses.


As it cannot harm anyone since it has been free for decades and is also housed in many places other than Ye Olde Inn, I think HASBRO would be a hard road to press charges or sue almost anyone for pulling older material that they have given away freely. Doesn't mean they can't or wont, but the backlash would destroy the new HeroQuest release.

again, people need to know exact things they can and cannot discuss or spoil, as well as images thereof, because it wont be long until videos appear on YouTube of everything and a 1080p video can easily be screenshot and printed by anyone just wanting to play a quest with their "print and play" version of HQ that has been making the rounds.

draw the lines in the sand so people know which side to stand on with unboxings and discussions of this new version of the game and its contents.
(I give it 1 week before Board Game Geek has everything posted in OCR'd text PDF scans after people start getting their copies of the game anyway, for archive and educational purposes.)
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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 11:06am

Yes, the photocopied scans of the original instruction booklet and NA quest books have been posted on Hasbro's public site for years (where they store all their "I lost my instructions" game stuff ie "Customer Care"). Granted, those are the instructions for the classic versions. We know the Remake won't be exactly "word for word" identical, but it may end up being a simple word substitution with new artwork, dates changed and replacing Chaos with Dread, Fimir with Abomination, etc.

Does Stephen Baker own any of those "names"? That might have been another reason they got him on board, unless "Rogar" is an old name that isn't under copyright (like "Morcar" is the name of a historical figure, and "Zargon" has been used in a dozen sources prior to Hero Quest).

Some of the books also give you permission to make copies of the artifact cards (inside KK & ROTWL) for example, for your own use and copying the blank map and symbols at the end of the original quest book or the various new tiles (in quest packs) for making your own quests.

Even if Hasbro were to take all those down tomorrow, they're still "out there" on the net.

The owners of this site & admins of the forum will have to decide how strict they are wanting to be, to protect the Inn and its community from trigger happy IP watchers, but those are valid points.

I'm not worried about the community unboxings because those will be posted elsewhere than the Inn (Twitch, Youtube, etc) and only be linked here, and it's for review purposes not "hey copy this and pirate it." If someone did that (just scanned and shared up everything new), I wouldn't be too shocked if they got a takedown notice (not counting the stuff that Hasbro has already shown).

None of us have signed anything re: "review embargoes" so as soon as you get your copy, nothing stopping you from spreading that information far and wide, but my unsolicited advise is: just be prudent when you do it. Don't make it look like you're being a Pirate (Orcish or otherwise).

I'll respect the rules of the forum, either way. But I think the larger point I understand is that as a former admin of some forums (back in the day) I understand that we can't be lawyers. While spelling out the rules is a best practice, sometimes it comes down to a judgment call, and no matter how unpopular, that's where it rests.

This isn't some big tech platform with millions of users and bots randomly censoring and shadow banning and striking people without any oversight. It's a couple of guys reading stuff in their spare time, deciding whether its cool (usually) or questionable. But yes, clarity and common sense should reign, otherwise people will be afraid to post anything (and leave) or it will just be chaos (dreadful!).


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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Thor-in » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 11:58am

Shadzar wrote:This is just becoming more and more of a mess, and if HASBRO should seek to dismantle a place that has been providing what it has been providing for free for a decade or more, then it is likely to have NO future for HeroQuest as a product line if it, like T$R did, decides to attack its customers and fans.

(I give it 1 week before Board Game Geek has everything posted in OCR'd text PDF scans after people start getting their copies of the game anyway, for archive and educational purposes.)


Yes, this is becoming a big mess. However, with that said, this place is (in my assumption) where the bard was taken from D&D and converted into HQ. The same goes with the dragon from Dragon Strike. Hasbro has probably been watching us for a long time and getting ideas and now marketing them as their own. No, they can't do anything with a fan-made hero that was posted here labeled "The Bard" from say 15 years ago but they could go after us for uploading a newly copyrighted version of "The Bard" so other people can download it. Until Hasbro (which they may never do because they realize there is profit to be made with this game) posts all the new releases for "free", it's best to not ruffle their feathers with any kind of new copyright infringement.

Side note, this is how companies are starting to do things. My daughter borrowed a pair of Nike Air Force 1's from a friend of hers. I threw the empty box away, why, because it's an empty box. I'm old, if it's garbage it goes in the trash. Come to find out teenagers nowadays keep their shoes in these boxes as a social status. The more shoes and shoe boxes you have the higher your social status. So my wife looked up what it would cost to buy a new box in that size. $30 to replace it. My point is, if someone loses their instruction booklet, Hasbro will probably charge them a fee to get a one-time download link or ship a new book out. Companies are realizing they can charge for replacement stuff that is of value to their market, board games are no different.

You are probably right BGG will probably have stuff uploaded or posted LABELED archive or educational purposes but none of it will be an actual PDF file that can be downloaded for free so people get the game. If they do I can almost guarantee it will have water makes saying copyright all over it.
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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 12:28pm

I reprinted some of my quest books, but the thing is it cost quite a bit to print them, so if I just wanted to reference a pdf online, it's nice that the company provided it for free. Without the game itself, the booklet is kind of useless, but kind of like a piece of free advertising, showing the fun you COULD be having if you bought the game (granted, up until now, HeroQuest has been out of print, so they don't see a dime for you buying a used copy). BUT on the other hand, it builds customer loyalty, because you associate the Hasbro brand with a company that "cares" for loyal customers like you who own their products. Hence you may be more likely to consider buying from them in the future or recommend others do so.

I certainly felt glad they released that stuff for HeroQuest and BattleMasters for example. I was reading the rules before ordering and while waiting for it to arrive in the latter case.

If they would just sell a physical copy, professionally printed to replace your lost one, that is totally logical. Charging you a fee to print one exactly like the original, same thing. But the new HQ instruction booklet and quest book look to have color covers (probably glossy or matte finish cardstock not just paper like the classic NA release), so much more expensive to re-create on your own.

I posted some videos already of me unboxing and reading the rules for the 1990 classic edition, will something like that for the new game be acceptable? I realize not everyone wants to speak on camera, but if someone just used their text to speech program to do something similar would it be okay? Not trying to start a debate once again, but floating that by the admins ahead of time here.


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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby iKarith » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 8:01pm

StratosVX wrote:
Shadzar wrote:The question still remains, what constituents IP theft in this matter, beyond vagaries so that people doing unboxings, or scans of the rules to compare the original with the new to detail what has changed in this remake is needed to know to the letter.

What if tiles changed not only rules? Do we assume the original quests from the base game, Kellar Keep and Witch Lord are off limits to post to compare


There has already been discussion that some of the existing material on the site may need to be pulled. If the quests haven't changed from the original, then yes we may need to take down the quest books that are on the site. As for scans of the rules, it would be better to type out the sections you are comparing as opposed to scanning the rulebook and posting it here.


We'll have to pull stuff if we're asked to. I don't intend to pull anything we had prior to 2020 unless we are. Someone at AH/Wizards/Hasbro knows it's there and has elected not to act, yet. My suspicion is that they will not as long as we don't add their new edition to it in any major, public way.

There are three issues at play here, the commercial interest, the Copyright interest, and the Trademark interest.

Commercially speaking, printing the scans we have for the Game System will cost you more than the Mythic tier of the Pulse campaign, and you'd still need minis. Likely Hasbro doesn't consider our scans a commercial threat. They could ask us to take them down for Copyright reasons, but we know someone at AH/Wizards/Hasbro is aware of the Inn and doubtless what's on it. They haven't sent us any nasty letters, so they likely won't if we don't rock any boats.

The HeroQuest logo and trademark … we're probably close to the line there. They can protect their Copyright, but they must defend their Trademark. Before I'm done (admittedly I've stalled recently for medical reasons and haven't gotten moving again, it's kinda time to rectify that), I'll be backing us carefully away from the line on Trademark stuff to be on the safe side.

StratosVX wrote:
Shadzar wrote:Each game and expansion that previously existed has components lists, and people need to know exactly which components can and cannot be used form this new game. Spell cards that we alrady saw on the companion app? Hero card we already saw on the companion app? furniture imagery we already saw on the companion app? monster art we have seen since the beginning and on the companion app?


It would be better to link to the images on the official site instead of posting directly here as Daedalus suggested.


THEY can post full 300 DPI versions of things if they want to. We can't necessarily, without their permission. I'm inclined to be cautious there, without being timid. If they post a PDF of character sheets, I'd put a copy here with a link back to their site for credit. But I'm more inclined to link to many of the other game materials. (Make copies just in case? Oh you bet I would!)
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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby cynthialee » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 8:13pm

any move against this site would be a little myopic on Hasbro's part

Player forums kept interest in their property alive for decades while their product moldered in a back room. Hell I wager the vast majority of that 3.8 million they got from the kickstarter was from older fans who already own original copies and multiple sets. (hell I own 3 sets myself plus expansions)

They piss off the fan base by taking down their fan sites...it is not a good way to sell expansion packs.

This group isn't going to take any $ from their pockets. It is a free fan site and advertising platform. If something Heroquest is going to drop, we will tell each other and buzz over it until delivery.

Just don't put up high quality scans of the new stuff and things will be golden.
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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 8:14pm

Another thing is... once we DO get our copies, guess what? We've got them. So if I am the one who rips open the shrink wrap... poof, there goes my refund.

So at that point if I post an (in theory) "naughty" review that gets pulled, guess what I'm going to do? I didn't blow my only chance... and I didn't just toss the game into a wood chipper, and then load the pieces into the fireplace. Instead, I just pick the game and the camera back up again and film a "proper" review that meets the exacting community standards. Problem solved!

Now I'm not trying to get banned of course, so I'm going to do my best to present an honest and helpful video for the community, answering the questions and helping others make an informed decision. Nobody will need to care about me or my opinion in order to benefit from it. If someone is going to freeze frame, zoom in, and (in a Jack Ryan voice) say "enhance" until they've gotten a perfect copy from my video and then print it out and parade past Hasbro headquarters screaming through a bullhorn "I stole this, suckers!!!" that's certainly not my fault nor my intention.

As a former admin myself, the last thing I want to do is create a mess for them to clean up on purpose, so that's my plan going forward. So, any unboxings posted yet?


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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Shadzar » Wednesday November 3rd, 2021 11:00pm

iKarith wrote:There are three issues at play here, the commercial interest, the Copyright interest, and the Trademark interest.

Commercially speaking, printing the scans we have for the Game System will cost you more than the Mythic tier of the Pulse campaign, and you'd still need minis.

Actually, nobody will need the minis or to purchase the base game after November/December, as the HeroQuest companion app is due out to have all the quests from the base game, all the minis including the stretch goal Heroes, and the only thing set to be missing so far would be the character sheets that a piece of notebook paper would easily replace; all for free in the app.

So the entire base game will be free because the app, because they never mentioned a price for the app at this point, and if they charge for it, then that will piss off many people wanting the ability for solo play.


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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby Kurgan » Thursday November 4th, 2021 12:21am

All they have to do there is just offer a single-use download code for the app in the box. The problem with the app is that Zargon is automated (for some of us that's the main fun is being the GM). Then again if you just wanted to play it, I agree, it would seem like the whole thing is free. I guess I don't have a problem with that. Better than paying $1k on ebay for a scalped set. Of course if it comes to regular stores at regular prices, that's the best outcome.


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Re: Avalon Hill HeroQuest posting restrictions

Postby StratosVX » Thursday November 4th, 2021 6:57am

Shadzar wrote:
StratosVX wrote:If the quests haven't changed from the original, then yes we may need to take down the quest books that are on the site. As for scans of the rules, it would be better to type out the sections you are comparing as opposed to scanning the rulebook and posting it here.


And then the confusion becomes greater. not only the wording in the opening post here.

This should simplify things: posting a paragraph of the rules that you wish to discuss does not provide a file that someone can download to avoid paying for the game. Posting a file does. That file does not allow someone to play the game for free, but it is one more thing that people can have toward a collection that allows them to circumvent buying the game.

Shadzar wrote:While copyright remains, HASBRO is not selling those older products, and have freely given them away during the time they did not own the Trademark, and part of those quest books are still possibly not fully owned by HASBRO as some references still belong to Games Workshop and cannot by copyright to HASBRO.

SO how could they be infringing when HASBRO has been giving them away freely for a decade or more, when HASBRO didn't even own the trademark to the IP at that time, Mon Design Publishing did?

The companies that own the IP can decide what to do with the IP. That means Mon Publishing could have given permission to Hasbro to post the files for the game out of respect for the people who owned it. However, the postings were through official means that can be pulled at any time. Why? Because they own the IP, not us. Nike's logo is on the internet and it is copyrighted. That doesn't mean I can use their logo for anything I want. Somebody making something free on the internet doesn't mean they give up their IP rights.

cynthialee wrote:This group isn't going to take any $ from their pockets. It is a free fan site and advertising platform. If something Heroquest is going to drop, we will tell each other and buzz over it until delivery.


The Facebook group already had people hoping we would post the materials so that they wouldn't have to buy the game, so yes we can take money from their pockets.

cynthialee wrote:Just don't put up high quality scans of the new stuff and things will be golden.

The rule is no posting of files of the new material. Period.


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