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Bows & Crossbows question

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby Stoner81 » Sunday March 5th, 2023 10:32am

Josh wrote:#3
SBow 1Att
LBow 2Att
LCrossbow 1Skull+2Att (single shot)
HCrossbow 1Skull+3Att (single shot)


I like that but you do what works best for you :)

|_P |_P |_P |_P

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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby burglekutt » Wednesday April 26th, 2023 11:54am

After obsessing for WEEKS like this game makes me friggin do lol, i think i might have had a break through.

I love the idea of a ShortBow having a 1Attack, but it's only value over a dagger is distance.
I like that the LongBow has 2Attack, but dislike that it makes the ShortBow useless.
Same goes for the Crossbows. Why buy the LightCrossbow if the HeavyCrossbow does more damage?

This got me thinking...
The strongest melee weapons in the game are the LongSword & BattleAxe, but they both are awesome because they do different things. I was wondering if missile weapons should be similar.

ShortBow 1Att × two shots.
LongBow 2Attack.

Light Crossbow 1Skull(automatic hit) × two shots.
Heavy Crossbow 1Skull +2Att.

The Light Crossbow( our LongSword) seems OP compared to the SBow, so im hoping the reload time & the penalty when switching from Crossbow to melee makes up for it.

Crossbow to Melee: -2Att on your next turn.
Bow to Melee: -1Att on your next turn.

The only hard part for me is how strong to make the Heavy Crossbow(our BattleAxe)
1# 1Skull +2Attack. Or...
2# 1Skull +3Attack.
3# 2Skulls +1Attack. Or...
4# 2Skulls +2Attack.
I personally like #1 or #3.

I hope this was entertaining because the correct math for dealing with missile weapons does exist somewhere in this universe! Lol this games gonna kill me!
Last edited by burglekutt on Sunday May 14th, 2023 12:03pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday May 13th, 2023 3:51am

Josh wrote:I think the game makers didn't like the idea of a 3Att missile weapon essentially firing Long Swords every round so instead they gave it a reload time.


Is this "reload time" a new mechanism from the 2021 edition, or have I missed something? How does it work?
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby burglekutt » Saturday May 13th, 2023 4:36am

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:Is this "reload time" a new mechanism

Haven't played the new one yet but in the original game you had to waste a round reloading the Crossbow because the game makers felt a 3Attack missile weapon was to powerful.

Some of us have gone mad trying to tweek it, especially when we added a
ShortBow, LongBow & LightCrossbow or Spear.
I bring this subject up every few years to see where ppl are at with it.

If adding a automatic Skull to the Crossbow plus a couple of Attack Dice is to powerful, then I'm down for a discussion.
Last edited by burglekutt on Sunday May 14th, 2023 4:11pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby Kurgan » Saturday May 13th, 2023 5:37pm

The 2021 remake didn't change anything about the Crossbow, it's identical to how it worked in the 1990 NA edition (and for those who still want to follow the "cards limit supply" mechanic that wasn't a thing in that edition, consider that there are three copies of it included with the game system's new equipment deck!). The expansions that included solo quests even let you find it (or give you gold very early on to afford it), so they want you to have it, it's not some kind of cheating stick that makes the game "too easy," in my view.

But for some reason, people love to put new limitations on the crossbow. No offense if you do, I just find it a bit amusing. :mrgreen:
In the classic rules Crossbows...

1) Have unlimited range. You can be in one corner of the map and hit a monster all the way on the other end of the board, and if you roll well (and he rolls poorly), you may even kill him in one shot!

2) Can hit just about anything. In the EU edition you don't even have to really AIM. Any monster in the same room with you is visible to be hit. In a corridor you have to trace an invisible line, yes. In the NA edition you are always tracing invisible lines but it doesn't have to follow the rules of Chess to hit!

3) Have infinite ammo. It even says so on the Armory board. No having to buy more arrows/bolts/etc or worry about running out.

4) Never malfunctions. No "string breaks if you roll two black shields" or whatever. There is already a "failure" mechanic built in.. if you don't roll any skulls then you "missed" and the enemy doesn't have to even bother rolling to defend. But if the enemy rolls enough black shields to block all your skulls, then they deflected or dodged it. If the string breaking is such realistic risk, why wouldn't the owner have a spare string (or two) handy for such an event? That's like a soldier not knowing how to clean or disassemble his weapon to prevent or fix a jam.

5) Can be used by three out of the four heroes. This wasn't true in the Japanese edition where only the Elf could use it, but there you go. (and when it comes to the new heroes Avalon Hill has added, the Warlock has the same limitations as the Wizard but the Knight, Rogue, Druid and Bard would all be able to use the crossbow as well).

6) Can hit stuff you didn't even think of. Yes, it is explicitly limited in that you can't hit an "adjacent" square. But as many have pointed out over the years (and Avalon Hill even accepted when asked about it on twitter) it "doesn't say" you can't hit the four close ("orthogonally adjacent") squares. So many interpret that to mean you CAN making it even more useful. The Japanese version excludes this however but most don't seem to care what the Japanese edition says.

7) Have no limitations with a Shield. That's right, only two pieces of equipment are ever stated to have limitations when it comes to having a Shield... the Staff and the Battle Axe. Not the Longsword... not the Spear (EU editions), not the Crossbow.

There's no "reloading" mechanic, no "aiming" (if you can see it you can hit it just like with a spell or throwing dagger), no skill checks. The Wizard can't use it but everyone else can. There are mercenaries that have it, and there are even some monsters that do too. A Hero wwning two of them doesn't give them a dual wielding bonus ("Dual Wielding" isn't a thing in HeroQuest, unless you homebrew it... you can carry as much gear as you like, scribble it on your character sheet somewhere, you don't need the card to prove you own it just Zargon remembers you found it or bought or traded it and there's no such thing as encumbrance except when it comes to wearing Plate Mail or the odd quest note like carrying Prince Magnus' gold).

And yes, if you get a strength bonus from a potion or spell, that applies to your ranged weaponry as well. Why wouldn't it? People can play however they like, I just have to chuckle at the endless drive to nerf the crossbow and the confusion these house rules sometimes cause when trying to think about the original game.

The only change I make is getting rid of the diagonal ability. To me those 8 squares that surround you can't be hit (I think the Japanese edition did it best). Is that more realistic? Not in the slightest, but neither is saying it can't hit adjacent squares. It's a great weapon to have, I let it be a great weapon still and I don't get upset when my monsters get shot.

If you're Zargon and don't want your heroes to be able to shoot stuff as much, go for it, it's your table! |_P


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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby HispaZargon » Saturday May 13th, 2023 6:17pm

Kurgan wrote:6) Can hit stuff you didn't even think of. Yes, it is explicitly limited in that you can't hit an "adjacent" square. But as many have pointed out over the years (and Avalon Hill even accepted when asked about it on twitter) it "doesn't say" you can't hit the four close ("orthogonally adjacent") squares. So many interpret that to mean you CAN making it even more useful. The Japanese version excludes this however but most don't seem to care what the Japanese edition says.

7) Have no limitations with a Shield. That's right, only two pieces of equipment are ever stated to have limitations when it comes to having a Shield... the Staff and the Battle Axe. Not the Longsword... not the Spear (EU editions), not the Crossbow.

You know I like nerfing the Crossbow if shooting to the 4 diagonal squares around the hero is allowed, otherwise not. The reason is the Longsword costs the same gold as the Crossbow in NA/Remake editions (350 mo), so I think giving such big advantage to the Crossbow should be reduced in some way to make the game and the weapons costs more balanced. The easy solution I think is not allowing the combination of a Shield with the Crossbow in the same turn, this will encourage the hero to use it more to shoot distant heroes, and only use it to attack close targets with the Crossbow in unpredicted situations when a moster suddenly appears near him, etc. Nevertheless, of course not everyone tries to play balanced and I guess the game never wanted to originally be a balanced game.

About Japanese edition rules of the Crossbow, you are right, it cannot be used against any target in the surounding 8 squares and it may only be used by the Elf. However remember that the Japanese Shortsword also attacks with 3 combat dice like the Crossbow and it may be used diagonaly, but its cost is 100 gold coins less than the Crossbow... so the Japanese edition clearly considers that the distant attacks is a big advantage compared with other weapons, which goes in line with my approach above.


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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby burglekutt » Sunday May 14th, 2023 3:13pm

Kurgan wrote:There's no "reloading" mechanic,

I hope you're saying this is your homebrew idea for the Crossbow because now I feel insane that I always thought the Crossbow required a round to reload!

If you aren't using a reload time for Crossbows, then what are the stats you use when introducing the
Short Bow
Long Bow
&
Light Crossbow?

I think that would help me understand you. Thanks Kurgan.
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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby Nlinindoll » Sunday May 14th, 2023 7:13pm

Josh wrote:
Kurgan wrote:There's no "reloading" mechanic,

I hope you're saying this is your homebrew idea for the Crossbow because now I feel insane that I always thought the Crossbow required a round to reload!
I think that would help me understand you. Thanks Kurgan.


sorry to break it to you, but there was no reloading mechanic or rules in the original nor the rerelease. If you’re remembering a reload rule, perhaps it was whoever you played the game with had homebrewed that rule back then.
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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Monday May 15th, 2023 11:46am

Glad I haven't been skipping that reload mechanism text for the last 3 decades!

Short bow
Weapon, Missile, 2AD
The Short bow allows you to roll two combat dice in attack.
Cost 150 gold coins.


I haven't introduced a Longbow as it doesn't seem particularly user-friendly in the dimly lit, confined spaces of the dungeon but if I did then it would be the same as the Short bow but an extra AD for a cost of 250gc, but I imagine it would be restricted to a particular hero type.

Crossbow
Weapon, Missile, 3AD
The Crossbow allows you to roll three combat dice in attack.
Cost 350 gold coins.


(No need for a Light Crossbow as the HQ Crossbow is a Light Crossbow, same reasoning as Longbow)

Repeater Crossbow
Weapon, Missile, 2AD
The Repeater Crossbow allows you to roll two combat dice in attack and enables you to shoot twice as a single action against the same or different targets.
Cost 500 gold coins.


Jury is still out on the matters of combining shield with bows, but I have restricted missile weapons from targeting diagonal squares in order to keep missile attacks and hand-to-hand attack separate (as hand-to-hand can include diagonals)

Personally I don't see the need to introduce a "reload" mechanism but if I did I would probably do it in an abstract fashion like "You may not move and shoot with the crossbow in the same turn."
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on Original 1989 HeroQuest.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Bows & Crossbows question

Postby burglekutt » Monday May 15th, 2023 1:08pm

[/
Last edited by burglekutt on Wednesday May 17th, 2023 6:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
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