• Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Strength of Body/Mind Tests

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Re: Strength of Body/Mind Tests

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Monday June 13th, 2022 6:14am

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:And the first version of my house rules did indeed use that, but I changed them, and for the life of me I now don’t remember any good reason why I did it…
Note to self: I really should implement version control / history of changes for the document, but I just can’t be bothered!


Funnily enough I started to go through my notes for the purposes of implementing some form of changelog for my “Penultimate Guide to HeroQuest” document and one of the first things I discovered was the reason why I had chosen NOT to use combat dice for the Body/Mind Tests

I was looking into what I refer to as the “unwritten rules” of HeroQuest, i.e., things that are not explicitly stated in the rulebook, but seem to be woven unstated into the rules and that perhaps should be called out and documented so that they can be considered when creating new rules or amending existing rules to keep everything consistent (for example all Heroes have Starting Body and Mind values that total to 10).

“Combat Dice (sometimes referred to as Attack or Defend Dice when used in that context) are used for combat and for other situations in which the outcome results in the potential loss of Body Points (or Mind Points) – such as the outcome of trap damage. Red Dice (sometimes referred to as Movement Dice when used in that context) are used for all other situations that are not covered by Combat Dice.”

That is why I didn’t want to use Combat Dice to determine the outcome of a Body or Mind Test as it won’t directly result in the loss of Body or Mind Points.
I think the only option that I have left for these tests is to use the “Red Dice” and just accept that my version will be best if 6 red dice are available rather than just the 2 supplied. That is stretching the principle “only use components provided in the box” however red dice are included in the box and I can’t think of any component of any game that is as cheap or as readily available…
Next Quest (Main Group): Finished Original Quest book (now retired, hopefully not permanently?)
Next Quest (App Group): The Fire Mage

HeroQuest Gold - starting with text from the US rulebook and cards, with some rewording for clarity, a couple of sections have been extensively reworked (like "search" and "mind" rules), plus quite a few rules modified to resolve problems

A6 Character Sheets
User avatar
Bareheaded Warrior

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sunday December 8th, 2013 11:12am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: Strength of Body/Mind Tests

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Wednesday August 17th, 2022 11:55am

My final, or at least current working version of these tests is...

“Strength of Mind” Test

Use: to break the effect of certain types of spells that target the mind; Sleep, Command, Fear

To carry out this test, roll a red die for each current Mind Point, if at least one six is rolled you have passed

Failure means that the spell effects remain in place.

"Strength of Body" Test

Use: to break down doors that cannot be opened normally, escape from man traps, bear hugs, lift a portcullis and similar

To carry out this test, roll a red die for each current Body Point, if at least one six is rolled you have passed.

A much harder version of this test may occasionally be required, indicated in the Quest Notes, which require you to roll at least two sixes to pass this test.

The consequences of failing this test will be detailed in the specific circumstances but when attempting to break down a door then a failed attempt will end your turn and result in a Wandering Monster being placed.
Next Quest (Main Group): Finished Original Quest book (now retired, hopefully not permanently?)
Next Quest (App Group): The Fire Mage

HeroQuest Gold - starting with text from the US rulebook and cards, with some rewording for clarity, a couple of sections have been extensively reworked (like "search" and "mind" rules), plus quite a few rules modified to resolve problems

A6 Character Sheets
User avatar
Bareheaded Warrior

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sunday December 8th, 2013 11:12am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Strength of Body/Mind Tests

Postby TheLastChaosWarrior » Thursday August 18th, 2022 6:48am

Yes, there is the one in ATOH where you have to get two souls on the number of cd that match your starting attack values.
Me and my Dad thought it better to have one relating to starting body points, which must be more relevant than your attack value, so went for-
Roll number of cd equal to starting bp value.
Must score at least 4 skulls to open the stone door.
We quickly realised it slows game up as except for Barb, it's quite hard to get four skulls with 7 and 6 dice and almost impossible with four!
TheLastChaosWarrior

Fimir
Fimir
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Saturday May 21st, 2022 3:17pm
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar

Re: Strength of Body/Mind Tests

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday October 6th, 2022 12:03pm

I'm still not entirely happy with these tests so I've decided to expand out this review to all tests and see if that helps get some consistency!

I have described the various types of tests used in HeroQuest by type and outcome and have them grouped them by method below

Types of Test
• Simple Test - involves just one player who rolls, the outcome is determined by comparing that roll to a fixed value
• Compound Test - involves two antagonists, both roll, the outcome is determined by comparing the two rolls (effectively two simple tests with the outcome compared, also referred to as a contest)

By Outcome
• Binary – only two possible outcomes determined by the roll, success, or failure
• Ranged – outcome varies e.g., combat, 3 AD attack could result in failure 0 lost body points or a range of 0,1,2 or 3 lost Body Points and so on

Groups

1. Combat [Compound Test, Ranged Outcome]

The attacker attempts to roll as many skulls as possible, and the defender as many shields as possible using their attack and defend values to determine the number of combat dice used. If the attacker rolls more skulls than the defender rolls shields, the defender loses body points according to how many skulls they failed to defend against. Heroes count white shields and monster black shields.

Resolution: none required, happy with this as it is

Note: ATOH Mind Lock Spell introduces a Mind version of the Combat Test that uses the same mechanism as above for the purposes of determining spell effects and duration

The spell caster rolls a combat die for each Mind point, attempting to roll as many skulls as possible, and the defender rolls a combat die for each Mind point, attempting to roll as many shields as possible. If the attacker rolls more skulls than the defender rolls shields, the defender suffers the effects of the spell for a number of turns according to how many skulls they failed to defend against. Heroes count white shields and monster black shields.

Resolution: no issue with this mechanism as written, it uses an existing one, but using this test to determine duration as opposed to the spell break one used as standard in fear, sleep, and other spells (see below) is an inconsistency, really need to decide which mechanism is best for this type of test.

2. Damage – [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

Roll a number of combat dice, lose one BP for each skull rolled, no option to defend.
• Spear Trap - Roll 1 combat die. If you roll a skull, you suffer 1 Body Point of damage. You may NOT roll Defend Dice. This ends your turn. If you roll either a black or white shield, you have dodged out of the way of the spear. You may then continue with your move.
• Falling Block – Roll 3 combat dice. For each skull rolled, you suffer 1 Body Point of damage. You may NOT roll Defend Dice.
• KK Quest 3 Note A – Rolling Boulder Trap 5 Combat Dice, you may NOT roll Defend Dice.


Note: This test could be considered as just the attack half of the combat test with no option to defend

Resolution: none required, happy with this as it is

3. Variant Damage – [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

Variant of the Falling Block Traps Damage

Roll a red die, on a roll of 4,5, or 6 lose one Body Point. If wearing a Helmet, then lose one Body Point on a roll of 6 only.

Resolution: This one for reasons that are not clear uses a red die rather than the traditional combat die “Roll a combat die, on a roll of a skull lose one Body Point. If wearing a Helmet, then lose one Body Point on a roll of black shield only.” Would be consistent and would bring this in line with the standard damage test number 2, or even simpler just drop the Helmet piece

4. Yet Another Variant Damage Test– [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

It will inflict x Body Points of Damage. The monster then rolls x Red Dice. For each 5 or 6 rolled the damage is reduced by 1 point

Examples - Ball of Flame – Fire and Dread (2 Body Points/Red Dice) / Fire of Wrath (1 Body Points/Red Die), Firestorm (3 Body Points / 2 Red Dice)

Special Exception: Whilst technically not another test, or even a test at all I would include the Lightning Bolt Spell in this category. It uses a fixed 2 body points of damage with no defence which is another inconsistency as it is different from every other spell including the otherwise similar spells listed above.


Fixed Damage, Red Dice Defend

These three spells appear to be the only occasions when this distinct mechanism of fixed Body Point damage combined with a defend roll is used, as the only occasion where rolling red dice is used as a defend roll against body point damage.

Resolution: Changing the mechanism for all of these spells to use either

#1 – use the standard number 1 combat test i.e., roll 1/2/3 combat dice, defence roll, lose a BP for each excess skull
OR
#2 - use the standard number 2 damage test i.e., roll 1/2/3 combat dice, no defence, lose a BP for each skull

In my opinion I think that the nature of a fire based (or lightning-based) attack is sufficiently different from what armour is designed to resist that I would recommend option #2 and not permit a defence roll (this also makes these spells different from other ranged attacks in that they are more effective against armoured targets).

5. “Action” Test – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

Common mechanism for a number of tests, all simple tests with a binary outcome, all use combat dice, to cover various actions/activities

• Jump (single-square) - Roll 1 combat die, success if anything but a skull, fail if a skull – successful outcome is that you clear the pit and continue your move, failed outcome is that you fall into the pit and suffer 1 Body Point of damage – success is black or white shield [4+]
• Disarm (Tool Kit, not Dwarf) - Roll 1 combat die. If you roll a skull, you have sprung the trap, suffering body damage. If you roll either a black or white shield, the trap is disarmed. – success is black or white shield [4+]
• Disarm (Dwarf) - Roll 1 combat die. If you roll a black shield, you have sprung the trap, suffering body damage. If you roll anything except a black shield, the trap is disarmed. – success is skull or white shield [2+]
• Slippery Ice - Whenever a Hero moves onto a slippery ice square, the Hero rolls 1 combat die. If a white shield is rolled, the Hero falls and his turn ends immediately. Any other roll means the Hero can continue moving (if he has moves left) – success is skull or black shield [3+]
• Icy Ledge (double test, failing the first leads to the second) – rolls 1 combat die, if skull or white shield then success otherwise needs to take a second roll, if skull or white shield then success, otherwise death! – success is skull or white shield [5+] (failing twice has really bad consequences)


Resolution: these could all be converted to use a single red die, and have a target number, roll equal to or greater than target number means success. This way you only need to remember the target number for each type - given in [] in the examples above.

I would also recommend adding the “rule of one” to all tests within this category i.e. A natural roll of 1 on the die is a failure irrespective to any modifiers

Personally, I would consider the second part of the icy ledge test (and other similar bottomless chasm scenarios) to be a separate test named a 'cliff-hanger test'

6. Spell Break Test – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

Spell takes effect immediately but can be broken at once or on a future turn by the victim rolling one red die for each of its Mind Points. If at least one 6 is rolled, the spell is broken
Examples, sleep, command, fear*, cloud of chaos


*Cannot be broken at once, only on a future turn – is this an oversight?

Resolution: This is fine how it is, but is referred to as a Strength of Mind Test under HeroQuest Gold rules, but see next entry

7. Variant Spell Break Test – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

ATOH Mind Lock brings us a different spell break test

Roll one combat dice for each Mind Point. If they manage to roll three or more skulls, they have broken the effects.
Resolution: Either need to use the mind combat process to determine spell duration OR the spell break test. Either way the spell break test needs to be standardised.

8. Mind Attack – [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

KK – Quest 9 Note B - Borokk’s “very special and deadly magical power”.
On each of his turns, he attacks the “mind” of any Hero in the same room or corridor and in his line of sight. To do this, Borokk rolls 2 combat dice. For each skull he rolls, the victim of the attack loses 1 Mind Point.


Resolution: This could just be considered to be the standard #2 damage test although effecting Mind rather than Body Points, but I think this could be improved so that it uses the standard #1 combat test by with Mind Points i.e., the attacker/caster rolls a combat dice for each Mind Point and the defender does the same, any excess skulls cause loss of Mind Points

9. Variant Mind Attack – [Compound Test, Binary Outcome]

Dominate Spell from ATOH

The Chaos Sorcerer must attack its target by rolling a number of Combat Dice equal to its Mind Points, while the defender does the same to defend themselves. The Chaos Sorcerer must score at least two skulls in its Mind Attack.

Uses a standard (Mind) combat mechanism but needs the caster to get 2 excess skulls to produce a binary outcome, spell is either successful or it isn’t

10. Yet Another Variant Mind Attack – [Compound Test, Ranged Outcome]

Mind Blast Spell from ATOH

This spell allows a Chaos Sorcerer to inflict Mind Point damage on another character without having to be adjacent to them, or physically attacking them. A Chaos Sorcerer with this spell receiving the number of Mind Blast tokens specified in the Quest notes. Each time it attacks, it must discard one of the tokens. It may only use as many Mind Blasts as it has tokens.

To attack with a Mind Blast, both characters roll a number of Combat Dice equal to their Mind Points and add up the number of Skulls they have. The one with the most Skulls, be it attacker or defender then inflicts Mind Point damage on their opponent equal to the number of skulls they have in excess of their opponents score. If both scores are equal, neither character inflicts any damage.


Again, a unique mechanism that sort of resembles other mechanism but does really match any of them. It is almost a standard combat mechanism, but you compare skulls and the one with the highest either attacker or defender (not sure if that is the correct terminology in this particular instance) inflicts Mind damage on the other.

This is the only occasion in HQ as far as I am aware where simultaneous combat or contest occurs and it breaches the simple principle of, I attack you on my turn, you defend THEN on your turn you attack me, and I defend

Resolution: this could be converted to use the combat test #1 (using Mind values) as written.

There is also a second inconsistency here around spells only being allowed to be cast once (which can be overruled by artefacts, but this isn’t an inconsistency around testing, so I’ll ignore it here.

11. Strength of Mind – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

Warded Gate - KK – Quest 9 Note D – Roll 2 Red Dice, if total rolled is equal to or less than current Mind Point value then pass through the door, otherwise fail to pass through gate and turn ends. The Dwarf needs to roll only 1 Red dice

This test uses a roll 2 red dice, equal or less than current Mind Point value, which is a unique mechanism.

Resolution: Replace this with the Strength of Mind Test (#6 Spell Break Test). To carry out this test, roll a red die for each Mind Point, if at least one six is rolled you have passed (and Dwarf gets to roll an extra die in this particular example)

12. Strength (Of Body) – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

KK – Quest 6 Note A – This door has been locked for many years. To open the door, a Hero must stand next to it (adjacent) and roll 2 Red Dice. If he rolls, less than his starting number of body points, the door will open. If he fails to open the door, his turn will end

This test uses a roll 2 red dice, less than starting Body Point value, which is a unique mechanism that is superficially similar to test 10 but is not consistent with than test either as it uses ‘less than’ instead of ‘less than or equal to’ and uses starting points rather than current points.

For both #6/11 and #12 we need to decide whether these should be starting MP/BP or current? Using current adds an interesting twist, however it is inconsistent with the HQ logic that your attack dice, movement etc doesn’t decrease as you get injured, it is what it is until you are dead, which is simpler, so I have gone with that option.

Conclusion
So, the official rules provide 11 different testing mechanisms (as #8 is the same as #2 as written) and implementing my recommended changes, some tweaks may be needed to get the balance right in terms of comparing the stats of the original rolls compared with those of the new rolls, would result in reducing that to 5

This has to be simpler and more consistent!

Afterthought: Finally, is there a disarm test for magical traps, I haven’t yet found one but feel that spell casters should have this ability, and would recommend using the standard Spell Break/Strength of Mind test?
Next Quest (Main Group): Finished Original Quest book (now retired, hopefully not permanently?)
Next Quest (App Group): The Fire Mage

HeroQuest Gold - starting with text from the US rulebook and cards, with some rewording for clarity, a couple of sections have been extensively reworked (like "search" and "mind" rules), plus quite a few rules modified to resolve problems

A6 Character Sheets
User avatar
Bareheaded Warrior

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sunday December 8th, 2013 11:12am
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Strength of Body/Mind Tests

Postby Jabie » Wednesday November 2nd, 2022 8:36am

The way I will apply it in future quests I design will be to use a 2d6 test versus Mind Points, but every check will have a speciality e.g. A test associated with mining might be Mind (Dwarf), whereas identifying heraldic symbols would be Mind (Knight). Specialists only require 1d6. Body tests would work in much the same way, although there may be fewer specialities.
Jabie

Goblin
Goblin
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Wednesday September 22nd, 2010 1:36pm

Previous

Return to Rules

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests