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Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Stig » Sunday November 11th, 2018 6:10am

Inspired by DND:

- When a Hero reaches 0 BP they are not dead, but bleeding. Place their figure lying down on the board with 3 counters next to it. They have 3 turns of bleeding, represented by the three counters, before they are dead. One counter is removed at the start of each Hero turn apart from the first. The Hero is dead when the last counter is removed.
- A Hero can stop another Hero from bleeding out by using their action in an adjacent square as long as they are not in combat; the stop bleeding action. It's assumed Heroes carry bandages etc.
- A Hero who is on 0BP and has stopped bleeding is down. They cannot move or defend. They can however be carried, or be given other potions/spells to restore BP. If they are attacked whilst down they they are dead. A monster who is adjacent to a downed Hero or a fighting Hero must attack the fighting Hero. (Unless they have a special "super evil" trait, maybe something Chaos Monsters may have..)
- A Hero can carry another Hero who is down, but their movement is reduced to a minimum of 1D6, and they attack and defend using only 1 Dice (or for the coloured die system, their base die)

This can suddenly turn the Quest from a failure into a dramatic rescue! Do the Heroes leave a downed colleague or guard them? Or do they leave one Hero as a guardian? How much of the Quest is left; are they near the stairway? One of the most memorable moments in a recent quest was how the Heroes reacted when one of them was bleeding out. Suddenly some routine dungeon crawling turned into an emergency situation :o

Inspired by Blood Bowl / WFB 3d ed:

- If a Hero was reduced to 0BP during the quest and didn't subsequently die, they suffered a casualty. They must roll on the casualty table to determine the effects of their casualty:

Roll a D20:

1 Damaged Elbow Monsters attacking this Hero hit on the roll of :skull: and :blackshield: representing the trouble Hero has in blocking incoming strikes
2 Mangled Spine The Hero cannot carry any weapons into the dungeon in addition to those they are equipped with, ie no bows/shields slung around their back
3 Psychological Trauma The Hero loses a Mind Point permanently.
4 Damaged Organs The Hero loses a Body Point permanently.
5 Shattered Collarbone If the Hero attacks before moving, they attack with one combat die fewer
6 Broken Ankle The Hero receives a -1 modifier on the 2D6 roll for moving
7 Fractured Skull The Hero gains the Bonehead trait. Before activating the Hero at the start of their turn, roll 1D6. On the roll of a 1 the Hero has a blank moment and forgets what they should be doing. They lose their turn as they stand in a moment of utter confusion. If the Hero already has suffered Bonehead in the past, this becomes the Really Stupid trait. A Really Stupid roll is the same as a Bonehead roll, but only works on a 4+ unless the Hero began their turn adjacent to another Hero. (This represents the Really Stupid Hero having instructions yelled at them by his compatriots!). If the Hero is a spellcaster, they forget one spell of their choice permanently.
8 Smashed Knee The Hero now rolls 3D6 for moving and chooses the two lowest scores. They cannot jump onto tables or chairs
9 Sceptic Infection The Hero has a wound that is harbouring an infection and can be reopened. If a Monster rolls all Black Shields in attack against this Hero, the Hero automatically loses one Body Point and they are Infected. At the start of the Hero turn roll a :skull: One the roll of a :skull: they lose a Body Point. The infection lasts until they are healed.
10 Fear The Hero now has the fear trait against the race that caused them to go down. Every time they encounter a Monster of that race, they attack with one :skull: fewer and roll 1D6. This effect lasts until they roll 4+, after which they can attack the Monster normally
11 Ruptured Intestines When the Hero drinks a Potion, roll 1D6. On the roll of a 1-3 the Potion has no effect, as it isn't absorbed by the Hero's body.
12 Gouged Eye When the Hero declares they are to carry out a Search action, roll 1D6. On the roll of a 1, a Wandering Monster appears that they were unable to see. On the roll of a 2-4 they find nothing, but activate any Traps. On the roll of a 5-6 they carry out the search as normal
13 Fractured Orbit When shooting, if the Hero rolls one :blackshield: the shot is considered a miss
14 Mangled Hand When attacking, if the Hero rolls one :blackshield: then the attack is considered a miss
15 Lost toe Monsters may move, attack, and move again away from the Hero (as they cannot leap and chase after them!)
16 Crushed Ribs A Hero defends on :blackshield: if they are attacked by a second and subsequent Monsters in the same turn. This represents them losing the ability to twist and move their body to defend against blows coming from several directions
17 Hatred The Hero now hates the race that nearly killed them. If they see a Monster of that race and they are not in combat, they must move their full movement towards that Monster, and may not carry out any actions other than to Attack (ie no searching etc)
18 Rage! If the Hero rolls doubles for movement (or if their movement is 1D6, on the roll of a 6) they must move their full movement allowance towards the nearest Monster and attack them. When attacking, :blackshield: count as :skull: , and the Hero defends only on :blackshield: The rage continues until there are no Monsters in any of the Heroe's line of sight
19 Spirituality In the moments before death, the Hero saw what was on the other side. They now have the Deathsong special ability; the first damage that would reduce their Body Points to 0 is ignored; they stand, singing about their life, their past, and what it all means.
20 Impressive Scars The Hero made it, and boy do they look tough now! Each time a Monster wishes to attack the Hero, roll 1D6 first. On the roll of a 1 they hesitate, intimidated by the sheer ferocity of the Hero's scarred, no-nonsense appearance, and they fail to make their attack that turn.

I imagine this might add some flavour to the game, and some tactical options. It might also work well in conjuction with Hero advancement, as any abilities picked up by Heroes are tempered by the Casualties above.

Thoughts?


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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Stoner81 » Sunday November 11th, 2018 7:19am

Hmm interesting idea here Stig, do you use the rules that say a Hero can drink a potion if he reaches 0 Body Points? I think that was in the NA rules?

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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Stig » Sunday November 11th, 2018 7:24am

Yes, if there's no potion available they go down, and then suffer a casualty


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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Stoner81 » Sunday November 11th, 2018 8:52am

Stig wrote:Yes, if there's no potion available they go down, and then suffer a casualty


Ah OK that's good to know :)

Stig wrote:- If a Hero was reduced to 0BP during the quest and didn't subsequently die, they suffered a casualty. They must roll on the casualty table to determine the effects of their casualty:


I think this is quite harsh considering how nasty some of the options below are, perhaps instead make it that each time they are reduced to 0 they roll 1 Combat Die and on a Black Shield then suffer a Casulty/Condition? Also limit this so that they can only get 1 per quest otherwise it is going to suck really badly for the Heroes.

Stig wrote:Roll a D20:

1 Damaged Elbow Monsters attacking this Hero hit on the roll of :skull: and :blackshield: representing the trouble Hero has in blocking incoming strikes.


Some folks use a Black Shield as a critical hit so how would that work with this? The obvious answer would be to only use that system or this one but hey it's us and we want everything :D nice idea though.

Stig wrote:2 Mangled Spine The Hero cannot carry any weapons into the dungeon in addition to those they are equipped with, ie no bows/shields slung around their back.


I really really don't like this due to Rust spells and various things in the packs that remove items etc from the Heroes. I am not sure what to suggest here.

Stig wrote:3 Psychological Trauma The Hero loses a Mind Point permanently.
4 Damaged Organs The Hero loses a Body Point permanently.


This is just outright evil... me likey! In my rules I have system to permanently increase both of these stats so this would help give the Heroes something to always spend gold on.

Stig wrote:5 Shattered Collarbone If the Hero attacks before moving, they attack with one combat die fewer.


For this instead perhaps say that if a Hero with this condition attempts to use a 2 Handed Weapon then they roll -1 Attack Die for it?

Stig wrote:6 Broken Ankle The Hero receives a -1 modifier on the 2D6 roll for moving.


Simple and effective, in my rules I would also make this prevent the Dash action (move +3 squares).

Stig wrote:7 Fractured Skull The Hero gains the Bonehead trait. Before activating the Hero at the start of their turn, roll 1D6. On the roll of a 1 the Hero has a blank moment and forgets what they should be doing. They lose their turn as they stand in a moment of utter confusion. If the Hero already has suffered Bonehead in the past, this becomes the Really Stupid trait. A Really Stupid roll is the same as a Bonehead roll, but only works on a 4+ unless the Hero began their turn adjacent to another Hero. (This represents the Really Stupid Hero having instructions yelled at them by his compatriots!). If the Hero is a spellcaster, they forget one spell of their choice permanently.


I think this is just too strong. Unlucky players could end up missing numerous turns, I would at least allow them to move but perform no Action? Even then I am not sure about it. Perhaps even make it that you roll 2D6 and have to roll any double for this to happen?

Stig wrote:8 Smashed Knee The Hero now rolls 3D6 for moving and chooses the two lowest scores. They cannot jump onto tables or chairs


Not a bad idea, I can't think of anything I would do differently here.

Stig wrote:9 Sceptic Infection The Hero has a wound that is harbouring an infection and can be reopened. If a Monster rolls all Black Shields in attack against this Hero, the Hero automatically loses one Body Point and they are Infected. At the start of the Hero turn roll a :skull: One the roll of a :skull: they lose a Body Point. The infection lasts until they are healed.


Now this I really like! It would mean that the Heroes have to spend gold on the various potions in the shop to cure disease etc.

Stig wrote:10 Fear The Hero now has the fear trait against the race that caused them to go down. Every time they encounter a Monster of that race, they attack with one :skull: fewer and roll 1D6. This effect lasts until they roll 4+, after which they can attack the Monster normally.


Interesting idea. Though I think it could bog down the game with constant rolling depending on what monster it is. Perhaps make this so that the Fear effect can happen only once but it lasts the whole quest and can be cured with a Bravery or Courage spell?

Stig wrote:11 Ruptured Intestines When the Hero drinks a Potion, roll 1D6. On the roll of a 1-3 the Potion has no effect, as it isn't absorbed by the Hero's body.


Ouch! That's really harsh! I'd say make this on a roll of a 1 instead otherwise drinking potions when at 0 Body Points could get very very expensive.

Stig wrote:12 Gouged Eye When the Hero declares they are to carry out a Search action, roll 1D6. On the roll of a 1, a Wandering Monster appears that they were unable to see. On the roll of a 2-4 they find nothing, but activate any Traps. On the roll of a 5-6 they carry out the search as normal.


I think a better thing for this would be to say that any ranged attack is done so at -1 Combat Die and is permanent.

Stig wrote:13 Fractured Orbit When shooting, if the Hero rolls one :blackshield: the shot is considered a miss.
14 Mangled Hand When attacking, if the Hero rolls one :blackshield: then the attack is considered a miss.


Not a fan of these two, in some of the official packs this could be devastating to a party. I am not sure what else to suggest though.

Stig wrote:15 Lost toe Monsters may move, attack, and move again away from the Hero (as they cannot leap and chase after them!)


I would perhaps limit this to smaller monsters only like Goblins, Orcs and Skeletons maybe. The others are bigger or just generally slower, if a monster can already Move-Attack-Move then they gain an additional Attack action.

Stig wrote:16 Crushed Ribs A Hero defends on :blackshield: if they are attacked by a second and subsequent Monsters in the same turn. This represents them losing the ability to twist and move their body to defend against blows coming from several directions.


Do you use the rules in one of packs that states that if a Hero is attacked by multiple monsters then they only roll 1 lot of defence dice for all of the attacks? If so how would you work this with that system?

Stig wrote:17 Hatred The Hero now hates the race that nearly killed them. If they see a Monster of that race and they are not in combat, they must move their full movement towards that Monster, and may not carry out any actions other than to Attack (ie no searching etc).


Again this could be catastrophic to a group, perhaps make it that they gain +1 Attack Die but lose -1 Defence Die against that type of monster?

Stig wrote:18 Rage! If the Hero rolls doubles for movement (or if their movement is 1D6, on the roll of a 6) they must move their full movement allowance towards the nearest Monster and attack them. When attacking, :blackshield: count as :skull: , and the Hero defends only on :blackshield: The rage continues until there are no Monsters in any of the Heroe's line of sight.


Not a bad idea I guess though I wouldn't use it since my Barbarian has Berserk, though I might have to tweak my rules and not allow the Barb to defend with White Shields... hmm will have to think about this.

Stig wrote:19 Spirituality In the moments before death, the Hero saw what was on the other side. They now have the Deathsong special ability; the first damage that would reduce their Body Points to 0 is ignored; they stand, singing about their life, their past, and what it all means.


That is powerful, maybe even a little too powerful but I like the idea :D

Stig wrote:20 Impressive Scars The Hero made it, and boy do they look tough now! Each time a Monster wishes to attack the Hero, roll 1D6 first. On the roll of a 1 they hesitate, intimidated by the sheer ferocity of the Hero's scarred, no-nonsense appearance, and they fail to make their attack that turn.


Perhaps make this that a monster that's attacks in melee has -1 Combat Die to attack with and with ranged attacks it has no effect. It would save having to roll for each monster which is some quests would take forever.

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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby mitchiemasha » Sunday November 11th, 2018 9:40am

Can't say i'm a fan of table rolling. It is very DND but that's why we don't play it and play HeroQuest instead.


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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby torilen » Sunday November 11th, 2018 10:13am

NOOOOO D TWENTY'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry - Lost my head for a moment there.
But seriously - This is HQ, not D&D. One thing I try to do when I convert
D&D ideas into HQ...change all the weird dice into simple d6's. I would suggest
changing the table to list either 3-18, or 4-24 (3d6 or 4d6 respectively).

Nice table though. Granted, it does complicate things quite a bit, especially having to
keep track of all of that and the bleeding counters and all. As at least one stated above,
that's why they play HQ instead of D&D. It is still a nice table - good ideas in it.

I would also maybe suggest to try and find a way to condense some of the effects on the list.
Again, HQ is about simplicity. That is a lot to read and keep track of in the future.
Example - Fractured knee - make a card that the player must keep by his/her character card
from that point on. It provides the penalty (I would just make it a -1, -2, or -3) and reminds
them they cannot jump any more. Simple, to the point, and the card right there on the table
reminds them at all times.

I think most of the ideas on your table could be done in a similar fashion.


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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Stoner81 » Sunday November 11th, 2018 10:14am

mitchiemasha wrote:Can't say i'm a fan of table rolling. It is very DND but that's why we don't play it and play HeroQuest instead.


In that case you really won't like my rulebook since pretty much everything is in tables ha ha ha...! I did it so that it prevents people having to print out a crap ton of stuff in order to play, they only need the various game tiles from the packs and that's about it. Another reason why was to prevent clutter round the game table, all the cards and stuff just got in the way.

Each to their own though |_P |_P |_P

I do like torilen idea of not using D20 and instead using 3D6 or 4D6 etc which would make it more unique and different.

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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Stig » Sunday November 11th, 2018 12:04pm

Thanks for all the feedback, lots of food for thought! Thank you for going through each one and making suggestions.

Stoner81 wrote:I think this is quite harsh considering how nasty some of the options below are, perhaps instead make it that each time they are reduced to 0 they roll 1 Combat Die and on a Black Shield then suffer a Casulty/Condition? Also limit this so that they can only get 1 per quest otherwise it is going to suck really badly for the Heroes.


Well, Casualties only happen instead of the Hero actually dying, so I don't think they are too harsh; the player can just choose to use a new Hero instead. Perhaps only seasoned warriors with some advancements choose to go into Dungeons even if they are carrying injuries, other Heroes are "retired" :barbarian:

I do agree it is possible to make them less harsh by rolling a :skull: and getting a casualty only on a certain roll. I haven't playtested the casualties enough so I don't know what's the right balance

torilen wrote:NOOOOO D TWENTY'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry - Lost my head for a moment there.
But seriously - This is HQ, not D&D. One thing I try to do when I convert
D&D ideas into HQ...change all the weird dice into simple d6's. I would suggest
changing the table to list either 3-18, or 4-24 (3d6 or 4d6 respectively).


Lol I know.. but when I looked at how many reasonable injuries there could be it turned out to around 20. I don't think it's possible to swap it for 3D6 because of the normal distribution you get, so everyone would always somehow get a smashed collarbone (or whatever) but nobody would sprain their ankle; only because a collarbone would be result #10 on 3D6 and the ankle could be result #3 or something. Unless the more severe injuries are #3 and #18, whilst the more common ones are around the middle.

torilen wrote:I would also maybe suggest to try and find a way to condense some of the effects on the list.
Again, HQ is about simplicity. That is a lot to read and keep track of in the future.
Example - Fractured knee - make a card that the player must keep by his/her character card
from that point on. It provides the penalty (I would just make it a -1, -2, or -3) and reminds
them they cannot jump any more. Simple, to the point, and the card right there on the table
reminds them at all times.


Thanks - always looking to make things more concise. As these would be pretty rare, all I was imagining was a note on the character sheet; even though the table itself is quite large, the quantity of information carried around is small. I have to admit I do love a good table, and like rolling between Quests on various things!

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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby benvoliothefirst » Sunday November 11th, 2018 10:47pm

This table is brilliant, thanks for sharing! I definitely want to incorporate something like this. My heroes have starting asking about different things that can happen if they're down to 0BP. I HAVE noticed that once any hero dies, they usually all follow shortly thereafter. (My heroes are generally pretty good about moving the meat shields around to evenly distribute damage.)

I'm absolutely with torilen and Stoner81 about using d6-es (d6s?) instead. I generally want mods to be usable with the base game (2d6 max) contents for accessibility so I might condense it to 2-12. But I'm loathe to delete any of these great options! I'm with Stig that distribution has to be factored in. Rolling 2s and 12s should be the absolute worst and absolute best effects, respectively, and therefore more rare. If you drop it to 2d6 those extremes aren't AS hard to get though. But again, what to keep and what to lose?!

Stoner81 wrote:I think this is quite harsh considering how nasty some of the options below are, perhaps instead make it that each time they are reduced to 0 they roll 1 Combat Die and on a Black Shield then suffer a Casulty/Condition? Also limit this so that they can only get 1 per quest otherwise it is going to suck really badly for the Heroes.


I like the "only on a black shield" option. Although I would then do away with the 1 per quest rule. Luck is a harsh mistress.

torilen wrote:I would also maybe suggest to try and find a way to condense some of the effects on the list. Again, HQ is about simplicity. That is a lot to read and keep track of in the future. Example - Fractured knee - make a card that the player must keep by his/her character card from that point on. It provides the penalty (I would just make it a -1, -2, or -3) and reminds them they cannot jump any more. Simple, to the point, and the card right there on the table reminds them at all times.


I like it. We have the issue of a rotating cast in my group, keeping things simple by providing this card each time a player makes it to game night helps them remember and keeps the GM from having to keep looking things up/referring to the table.
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Re: Zero BP, Bleeding, Casualties. Then the fun starts...

Postby Showdown35 » Monday November 12th, 2018 3:08am

You could use the 1D6 + 1D6 method. Gives you 36 slots and is evenly distributed, and if you don't want to use all 36 slots, you can just double up the more common injuries.
Example:

First D6
- Second D6

1 Lower Body Injury
- 1 Severed Toe
- 2-3 Knee Cap displacement
- 4-5 Dislocated Hip
- 6 Broken Leg

2 - Upper Body Injury
- 1 Severed Tendon
- 2-4 Dislocated Shoulder
- 5-6 Broken Hand

3 - Internal Injury
- 1 Ruptured Spleen
- 2-5 Broken Rib
- 6 Chronic Shortness of Breath

4 - Head Injury
- 1-2 Lost an Eye
- 3-6 Concussion

5 - Psychological Trauma
- 1-3 Fear!
- 3-6 Rage!

6 - Veteran Experience!
- 1-4 Battle Scars
- 5-6 New Lease on Life!


With this method, you can customize how rare or how common each effect is, and it lets you group them into sub-groups, which I love!
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