"...from my cold, dead hands!" - Artifacts and Rust

[Count Mohawk]

(TL;DR version: "Artifacts make the Armory useless as a gold sink and Rust useless as a EWP control tool. Discuss.")

Longer version:

People like finding shiny new toys to play with. It is no different in Hero Quest. Give a Barbarian a sword and you arm him for a day - or until he runs afoul of your Rust Fimirs. Let him get his hands on a +2 Longsword of Slaying Everything Except Squid artifact weapon, however, and you arm him for life.

According to the original text, the Chaos Spell Rust has no effect on Artifacts, a clause which is well and good on its face. Heroes hate it when Morcar/Zargon takes away their toys, especially unique, difficult/impossible to replace Artifacts. Since most artifacts are better than the equivalent standard equipment pieces from the armory, M/Z's best play with an equipment-destroying effect such as Rust will almost always be to ruin such a thing - except, of course, for the fact that he can't. The card itself says so.

The problem with this protection clause comes when your Heroes gird themselves with the shiniest relics they can find, to the exclusion of mundane arms and armor. Not only does the Armory became entirely pointless as a place for the Heroes to spend their gold, but M/Z loses the use of one of his most powerful tools: the ability to regulate the Heroes' progression with a few steps back from time to time. Now, I do think it's important to keep the fear of God (or of Chaos, to be more on-point with the flavor) instilled in the Heroes. But if M/Z can blow up all the artifacts the Heroes find, is there really much point in finding them in the first place?

For those of you who like to outfit the Heroes with a lot of Artifacts, does this ever present any problems?

(Footnote: While I have a set of about 60 or so artifacts in AlterQuest, only a small number of them overlap with the types of items the Heroes can outright buy, so the above problems remain theoretical in my house, at least for now.)

[knightkrawler]

My artefacts are not affected by spells unless noted on the spell cards. I have yet to write such a spell.
General rule: keep artefacts magical items with some sort of bonus plus reliability/durability. BUT be sure to have a regular equipment piece that does something better than any artefact could.
For example, I'll only make an artefact sword +4AD (or 4 AD, as in vanilla HQ) that is not affected by spells available when I've got a +5 Greatsword for the Barbarian in the armory.
This rule of thumb I have for weapons and armor as well as other equipment like spell scrolls (always somewhat weaker than the godfather spell).
It tends to have my players pay more money for things. Also artefacts are unique, each and every one of them, so this also caters to my heroes not asking questions like "When can I buy this lovely mansion and retire?".

[Anderas]

"When can I buy this lovely mansion and retire?"

If i have players asking this question, everything is fine. I'd give them all they wish for and more, because i am sure once they have enough, they buy their barony and retire, and the player re-begins with a new Hero.

In fact, Heroes in my experience never do that. They just gather and gather and gather.....

1. for each 400 Gold you wear, you must remove 1 from your movement.
2. The standard equipment is a little bit more expensive.
3. There are more equipment choices inbetween, so for example a scale mail between chain mail and plate mail, as additional money sink
4. My rust spell will affect Artifacts. Ey Count Mohawk. You do your own Spells. I do my own Spells. Why letting Rust as it is? Why not changing it to affect artifacts as well? Why not adding Twist Wood to the Chaos Spells? Why not "relife leather" or "rot leather"? Why not "Moth swarm" for fabric?
5. And never forget the abiltiy to "steal" for your Monsters. Think about your Quests, always add a second way to escape, and see the plot unfold.

[cynthialee]

I have a ruling on this mater that solves the issue as far as my game table works.

In the hands of a thug bad guy the Rust Spell will not destroy an Artifact. That would be those monsters that are nameless spell casters.
Named NPC badguys with the spell that are not end boss spell casters may roll a single combat dice. If this dice rolls a Black Shield then the Artifact is ruined.
End Boss Bad guys can destroy an artifact with a rust spell. Unless the artifact is designed to destroy the boss. Like Witch Lord can not destroy the Spirit Blade, but I would allow him to destroy Borins Armor. {Don't worry, the Dwarven smiths of the mounds have figured out how to make the armor, it just costs a prohibitive amount of money.}

[EvilWizardCharacter]

I like this, Cynthia. Give the boss a slight rolling chance at the big-time Rust.

A nice card to add to the treasure deck, Plague of Moths. So long Wizard's Cloak.

[clmckay]

I have a disenchant spell that turns an artifact into a regular piece of equipment (nearest reasonable piece). It just removes the magic. So spirit blade to broadsword, orcs bane to short sword, you get the idea. If they get that cast on their artifact they turn over the artifact card and grab the corresponding equipment card. Then it's vulnerable to rust at a later point.

I tend to be conservative when doling out that spell. I don't generally give it to a caster in the quest notes, but add it on the fly if there's something specific I want to accomplish with it.

Sometimes I score on that goal, sometimes I whiff, but that's what makes it a game.

EDIT: Here it is.

[Count Mohawk]

TL;DR: KK's suggestion of "don't make Artifacts strictly better than purchasable equipment" is most likely the solution I was looking for (with a small number of exceptions, of course).

In AlterQuest, I have a couple of subsets of Artifacts which are completely immune to all forms of destruction, and cannot be negated or 'turned off', as by the effects of a Chaos Priest's ritual. These are Relics and Honors. The only difference between the two is that each Hero may only use one Honor at a time, but may use any number of Relics. The former category is populated primarily by "level-up items" in a similar vein to the Amulet of the North, while my selection of Honors is currently limited to the Ring of Brilliance, which offers one of eight different effect depending on which Element or Philosophy the honored Hero chooses to imbue it with. A sample of my works:


KK, you have a good point about not making artifacts "strictly better' than the best stuff available at the Armory. If the Artifacts are not always "best in class" for whatever item type they embody, they are no longer necessarily #1 on the Rust list and there is thus less need for them to be destroyed. I do break this rule on occasion, but I try not to do so for "early-game" artifacts. Wizard-usable weaponry gets a pass, of course, as the Wizard generally needs all the help he can get hence my signature. Lemmeron may have the better idea with his selection of purchasable staffs, though...

clmckay, excellent idea about using a Chaos Spell to strip the enchantment from an Artifact. I would probably write that effect as "disables for one Quest", as it would overlap with Rust otherwise. To the rest of you who suggest Twist Wood et al as, basically, Rust clones, I award you full points for flavor considerations.

4. My rust spell will affect Artifacts. Ey Count Mohawk. You do your own Spells. I do my own Spells. Why letting Rust as it is? Why not changing it to affect artifacts as well?

...Although I rewrote the Wizard's spellbook to improve him, I have not given equivalent consideration to Morcar/Zargon's sorcerers (yet). I write a couple more Spells for each Quest Pack I complete, but the list usually sits untouched in my Excel files. Rust in my house is equal-opportunity, however, and can break any weapon, armor, item, equipment, etc., regardless of material composition (except, of course, for Artifacts). I intend to share this discussion with my brother tomorrow and get his opinion; if Artifact destruction turns out to be warranted, I may have to make a card for "Morcar's Disjunction" as a more powerful variation.

Finally, someone mentioned Scrolls, so let me address that. In my AlterQuest, Scrolls are a special class of artifact, complete with unique card back. (I should probably share a few of those at some point. I didn't check for copyrights at all, though, so they can't go into the Artchives...) They can't be bought outright, and can generally only be found in Quests, although some spellcasters can transcribe their own magics onto Parchment, or read them from Tomes, to create additional scrolls. While they are not specifically immune to Rust, I would consider it the height of bad form to torch a Hero's last Heal Body scroll or something.

[knightkrawler]

Idea for a (Treasure?) card:

Dispell Rust
When you are supposed to discard an equipment or artefact card because of a Rust spell, discard this card instead.

For all those who have their artefacts in general be affected by spells.
Doesn't make much sense when you implement my rule of thumb.

[slev]

I added a sub-catagory of Artefacts, "relics" that are immune to Spells like Rust, and then let Rust affect Artefacts.
I don't have many Relics in the game, for good reason.

[Goblin-King]

Okay, so someone has Borin's Armor, the Spirit Blade and Orc Bane?
I don't really consider any other artifacts since they either have a built in limited lifespan (Elven Bow of Vindication) - Or they don't replace a mundane piece of equipment ( Elven Bracers).

That's three slots you can't destroy. Between four heroes who can wear body armor, helmet, shield and a weapon, that's 16 slots.
That gives you 13 slots that CAN be affected by rust at any given time.
Honestly I don't even see the problem.

That is unless of course you flood the game with homebrew artifacts - In which case I say, since you are houseruling anyway, just allow rust to work on them. Because of the abundance, they aren't really that special anyways.
Also remember that it IS possible to destroy artifacts by killing the hero and claiming the loot before the remaining heroes.


Rust'em... Rust'em all!