Search for Treasure & Secret Doors

[Sotiris]

Has anyone tried including secret doors in treasure searches as a general rule or in any given quest?

I will try her in a few months. She may combine 2 search actions in 1.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

My house rules combine searching for traps, treasure and secret doors into a combined whole turn search (within rooms you can't search within passages);

A search action is a whole turn action that can only take place in a room, where no monsters are present in the room and it cannot be combined with movement (as movement is an assumed part of the search itself).

If you wish to search a room, then you must state that as an action prior to making any movement and once that action is completed then your turn has finished.

If a player character searches a room the Evil Wizard Player must determine the outcome as below

a) it contains one or more traps (excluding trapped chests – see below) then the Evil Wizard player must declare “You have found a trap” and move the player character’s miniature to the nearest trapped space. The player character must then attempt to disarm the trap, whether successful or not this ends the player characters turn but the room is still available to be searched by another player character on their turn or by the same player character on a subsequent turn.

b) it contains a secret door then the secret door will automatically be found and needs to be handled by the rules below in the “Placing a secret door” section below. Finding the secret door ends the player characters turn but the room is still available to be searched by another player character on their turn or by the same player character on a subsequent turn.

c) it doesn’t contain any hidden traps or secret doors, then they will find treasure as indicated on the Quest Map or if nothing is indicated on the Quest notes then by drawing a treasure card. This completes the player characters turn and closes the room to any further searches and should be marked as searched by the evil wizard player.

Searching a room containing certain types of furniture will not reveal the contents of that furniture, (or in the case of trapped chests it will not reveal the presence of a trap) this must be done as a separate loot action when adjacent to the furniture; tomb, throne, alchemists’ bench, bookcases, cupboards, fireplace, sorcerer’s table (altar), throne, treasure chests, tomb, and weapon rack

Monsters never search.

It seems to play out fine and is in fact much quicker and easier in play than it is to read as the majority or rooms do not contains traps and/or secret doors so you just go straight to c). I would welcome any critical feedback so that I can plug any holes in advance of them turning up during a game.

[arntisdale]

you can't search within passages

Do these run on a different ruleset? Otherwise, how does anyone ever find secret doors & traps in hallways?

a) it contains one or more traps (excluding trapped chests – see below) then the Evil Wizard player must declare “You have found a trap” and move the player character’s miniature to the nearest trapped space. The player character must then attempt to disarm the trap, whether successful or not this ends the player characters turn but the room is still available to be searched by another player character on their turn or by the same player character on a subsequent turn.

If I understand this, then one search can reveal one trap at most, and then the hero is forced to deal with the trap. This seems like it would do two things:
1. If you had a room with a lot of traps, this is going to take a lot of searches!
2. It seems like the only way a hero finds' a trap is when they step on it, at which point they are stuck with either disarming it or triggering it. There is no revealing and then avoiding a trapped space. Is this right?

b) it contains a secret door then the secret door will automatically be found and needs to be handled by the rules below in the “Placing a secret door” section below. Finding the secret door ends the player characters turn but the room is still available to be searched by another player character on their turn or by the same player character on a subsequent turn.

If this is a, then b, then c, that means you can only ever find secret doors after all traps have been dealt with? Also, if a room had two secret doors, that would take two searches?

c) it doesn’t contain any hidden traps or secret doors, then they will find treasure as indicated on the Quest Map or if nothing is indicated on the Quest notes then by drawing a treasure card. This completes the player characters turn and closes the room to any further searches and should be marked as searched by the evil wizard player.

If I understand this correctly (and I'm not sure I do), this means you can only find treasures after all traps and all secret doors have been discovered (or triggered)? It would also mean that nobody would ever draw a treasure deck card in a room that had a basic room treasure in the quest notes?

Searching a room containing certain types of furniture will not reveal the contents of that furniture, (or in the case of trapped chests it will not reveal the presence of a trap) this must be done as a separate loot action when adjacent to the furniture; tomb, throne, alchemists’ bench, bookcases, cupboards, fireplace, sorcerer’s table (altar), throne, treasure chests, tomb, and weapon rack.

Couple questions here:
So does this mean that a hero would have to search each furniture item individually? If there's nothing in the notes, do you just tell 'em that there's nothing there, or do you draw a treasure deck card?
How exactly do heroes detect furniture traps? Does the loot action involve a trap-check? If not, wouldn't a hero always spring the furniture trap?

It seems to play out fine and is in fact much quicker and easier in play than it is to read as the majority or rooms do not contains traps and/or secret doors so you just go straight to c). I would welcome any critical feedback so that I can plug any holes in advance of them turning up during a game.

This seems like it would result in many many searches for a room that had a combination of floor traps, furniture traps, secret doors, furniture treasure etc. This ruleset is very interesting, but I'm not sure I really get it. Any help in understanding would be appreciated. Some of this stuff might just get adopted by my own house rules if I can figure out how it's supposed to work!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

you can't search within passages

Do these run on a different ruleset? Otherwise, how does anyone ever find secret doors & traps in hallways?

Yes they do, I probably should have included that rule set also for completeness

My house rules don't allow searching in passages, traps and secret doors are handled through the house rules that form part of the Movement section of my rulebook below;

Secret Doors & Traps

Note: Secret Doors and Traps are not placed on the board like normal. Secret Doors are only placed on the board when spotted (in a room or passage) or found by a search (in rooms only) on either side of the wall in which they are located. Traps are only placed on the board when triggered.

Spotting a Secret Door or Trap

If a player characters movement takes them through a space marked as containing a secret door or trap on the Quest map, the evil wizard player must check the total of the movement dice rolled for that player character (not the spaces moved but the dice total) and if that total is six or less then the device has been spotted, otherwise it hasn’t.

If a secret door has been spotted then the evil wizard player must stop the player character’s movement on that space, by stating "You have discovered a secret door" and place a normal open-door marker in the appropriate position and the player character may choose to proceed with his movement as usual including passing through that door if he so chooses.

If a secret door is not spotted the player character continues his movement oblivious to the presence of the door. If subsequently that or other player characters cross that same square, then the same rules apply.

If a trap has been spotted then the evil wizard player must stop the player character’s movement on that space, by stating "You have discovered a trap". The player character must then attempt to disarm the trap and whether successful or not it ends his turn.

If a trap is not spotted, then it will be triggered, and the player character must suffer the consequences.

The Dwarf spots secret doors and traps if his total movement is seven or less.

Monsters cannot spot or trigger traps or secret doors. They may move freely though squares that contain secret doors or traps. Once a trap or secret door has been placed on the board, monsters must follow the same rules as characters.

Disarming a Trap

To disarm a trap, roll a standard die on a roll of four or more the trap has been successfully disarmed, otherwise the trap has been triggered.

The Dwarf and any player character equipped with a Tool Kit gets to add one point to his total rolled for disarming traps. This is cumulative so Dwarf players equipped with a Tool Kit gets to add two points to his total.

Disarming a trap does not count as an action but whether successful or not does end the player characters turn.

a) it contains one or more traps (excluding trapped chests – see below) then the Evil Wizard player must declare “You have found a trap” and move the player character’s miniature to the nearest trapped space. The player character must then attempt to disarm the trap, whether successful or not this ends the player characters turn but the room is still available to be searched by another player character on their turn or by the same player character on a subsequent turn.

If I understand this, then one search can reveal one trap at most, and then the hero is forced to deal with the trap. This seems like it would do two things:
1. If you had a room with a lot of traps, this is going to take a lot of searches!
2. It seems like the only way a hero finds' a trap is when they step on it, at which point they are stuck with either disarming it or triggering it. There is no revealing and then avoiding a trapped space. Is this right?

Yes, correct on both counts. Most rooms don't have traps and certainly not multiple traps so this doesn't generally slow down play (in fact these rules speed it up in general) but for those rooms that do it will take time to work through, kind of like picking your way through a minefield, probably best not rushed. An unintended consequence of these rules that came out whilst playing is that with my group there is quite a rush to be the one to search a room to grab the treasure and leads to some rivalry, which is neatly reversed when the searching player hits a trap, enabling the next player to grab the treasure.

b) it contains a secret door then the secret door will automatically be found and needs to be handled by the rules below in the “Placing a secret door” section below. Finding the secret door ends the player characters turn but the room is still available to be searched by another player character on their turn or by the same player character on a subsequent turn.

If this is a, then b, then c, that means you can only ever find secret doors after all traps have been dealt with? Also, if a room had two secret doors, that would take two searches?

Correct again

c) it doesn’t contain any hidden traps or secret doors, then they will find treasure as indicated on the Quest Map or if nothing is indicated on the Quest notes then by drawing a treasure card. This completes the player characters turn and closes the room to any further searches and should be marked as searched by the evil wizard player.

If I understand this correctly (and I'm not sure I do), this means you can only find treasures after all traps and all secret doors have been discovered (or triggered)? It would also mean that nobody would ever draw a treasure deck card in a room that had a basic room treasure in the quest notes?

Correct again. The reducing treasure cards to one per room (assuming no quest map notes) is part of a series of tweaks that I made to try and slow down on Heroes maxing out on gear too early as I think that is one of HQs drawbacks (I like the advancement through equipment logic, nice and simple but they just max out way too fast!)

Searching a room containing certain types of furniture will not reveal the contents of that furniture, (or in the case of trapped chests it will not reveal the presence of a trap) this must be done as a separate loot action when adjacent to the furniture; tomb, throne, alchemists’ bench, bookcases, cupboards, fireplace, sorcerer’s table (altar), throne, treasure chests, tomb, and weapon rack.

Couple questions here:
So does this mean that a hero would have to search each furniture item individually? If there's nothing in the notes, do you just tell 'em that there's nothing there, or do you draw a treasure deck card?
How exactly do heroes detect furniture traps? Does the loot action involve a trap-check? If not, wouldn't a hero always spring the furniture trap?

Yes they have to check each piece of furniture individually. For pre-generated quests that wouldn't normally have anything in the notes I provide a table for the EWP to roll against but you could just draw a treasure card, for my own quests I would pre-roll those and populate the Quest notes (I'll post the relevant furniture looting rules and tables later). Only chests may be trapped and yes the looting rules cover those and I'll post them later also.

It seems to play out fine and is in fact much quicker and easier in play than it is to read as the majority or rooms do not contains traps and/or secret doors so you just go straight to c). I would welcome any critical feedback so that I can plug any holes in advance of them turning up during a game.

This seems like it would result in many many searches for a room that had a combination of floor traps, furniture traps, secret doors, furniture treasure etc. This ruleset is very interesting, but I'm not sure I really get it. Any help in understanding would be appreciated. Some of this stuff might just get adopted by my own house rules if I can figure out how it's supposed to work!

You are correct it would result in many searches for a room that had a combination of floor traps, furniture traps, secret doors, furniture treasure etc. but the way I look at it (and the way it plays in practise) is that most rooms don't have such a combination (and are therefore very quick to search, quicker than the standard ruleset) and for rooms that are packed with traps, furniture, secret doors etc, then yes they will take longer to search but then why wouldn't they, I would expect that searching an area packed with 'features' would take longer than searching an empty room!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

14.5 Looting
As noted above certain types of furniture will not be included in a standard room search and must be looted (the preferred term for accessing and removing the contents of a piece of furniture) as an action by player characters stood adjacent to the furniture in a room that doesn’t contain any monsters. Looting chests is covered in a separate sub-section below.

14.6 In terms of the loot received consult the Quest notes and if nothing is stated then draw a treasure card. In the appendices below there are tables that can be used to generate the contents of the various types of furniture prior to the Quest and added to the Quest notes instead of using Treasure cards

14.7 Looting Treasure Chests
Treasure Chests are always locked.

14.8 A player character standing adjacent to a treasure chest in a room that does not contain any monsters may as an action force open the chest and loot (pick up) the contents.

14.9 If the chest is trapped, then this action will trigger the trap and he will suffer the consequences but will still pick up the contents.

14.10 A player character who is the Dwarf and/or is equipped with the Tool Kit and is standing adjacent to a treasure chest in a room that does not contain any monsters may as an action attempt to disable the lock on the chest and loot (pick up) the contents.

14.11 Disabling a lock on a Treasure Chest
To disable a lock on a chest, roll a standard die (if the player character is a Dwarf AND has the Tool Kit then add one to the total) if the score is four or more then you have successfully disabled the lock and can access the treasure (if the chest is trapped then you have disarmed the trap), otherwise you have forced open the chest, and if trapped, then you have triggered the trap. Either way you get the contents.

[Zeus]

I use these searching mechanics:

-- Separate action for searching for treasure (rooms only, once per room), and searching for secret doors (rooms and corridors).

-- Searching for traps is not an action anymore; instead, when a hero enters a space with a trap trigger, they get a chance to spot it (needing a Mind test, Dwarf and other applicable classes get bonus). If they do, they may choose to take no risk and step back, ending their movement; try to disarm the trap, needing a basic roll where the Dwarf, Thief etc get a bonus; or try carefully to sneak past the trap, needing an Agility roll (success would allow the hero to continue moving, but the trap is still there). Failure at spotting, disarming or sneaking past results in the trap going off.

-- I use my own version of an Evil Wizard Player deck, with Morcar/Zargon drawing a card when they start their turn without any monsters on the board (ideal searching time for the heroes usually). This often forces the heroes to choose between doing full searches and risking bad things happening later, or only doing the bare minimum searching and trying to open doors to get monsters on the board.

I do think any treasure or secret doors that are required for the quest or the campaign should be hinted at by the GM; this could be while the heroes are in the relevant room, but also 1-2 rooms later (ie they find a map showing a secret door in a room they explored before), forcing them to backtrack (with again the added risk of not having monsters on the board) or split up (always fun for the GM).

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Just some musing on my part but as I understand it in the official rules you can find a secret door that is located between a room and a corridor by searching for secret doors (or the combined secret doors / trap search) on the corridor side.

Obviously you can also find any secret doors from the room side by searching the room.

Would it break any official quests if I house ruled that you can only find secret doors by searching in a room, but not from the corridor side?

[ajjohnsen]

Having to perform separate searches for Traps/Secret Doors/Treasure can get tedious for the players after awhile especially if one player makes a point to do it for every room. I personally have adopted a rule much like this where the players simply "search" a room and I apply a pecking order to the search. If there's a trap they find it, if no trap then they find a secret door and if no door then their search finds treasure. Alternatively they can also just search for treasure out the gate if that's all they're after

*Special Quest Treasure will always be found first if it's in the room where a player "searched" and if its trapped they would need to say out loud upon discovery that they're checking it for traps before opening it. When I first thought about this it sounded kind of complicated at first and I was nervous it'd just be more trouble then it was worth, but it really sped up the game play and my friends liked it way better than the original way

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Having to perform separate searches for Traps/Secret Doors/Treasure can get tedious for the players after awhile especially if one player makes a point to do it for every room. I personally have adopted a rule much like this where the players simply "search" a room and I apply a pecking order to the search. If there's a trap they find it, if no trap then they find a secret door and if no door then their search finds treasure.

I agree entirely and I'm pretty sure that my player's would never go back to the original now, takes too long.

The combined search or just a search that I use is effectively just trap search, then secret door search then treasure search. That said I have removed chests from the search rules and created a LOOT action for handling chests, need to be adjacent square to the chest. I also use slightly different disarm rules, in that if you step onto a trap square during movement or during a search (or looting a chest) then you are told by Zargon and must immediately attempt to disarm the trap, rolling 5+ on a red die (+2 for the Dwarf, +1 Toolkit), if you succeed it is removed otherwise you suffer the consequences.

It all works well and has been play tested for a while now, but the bit I'm less happy with is the handling of secret doors in corridors (it works but I don't like it!) and I was hoping that just removing the option to find secret doors in corridors wouldn't break any official quests! Plus making secret doors between corridors and rooms undetectable from the corridor side would be useful when making one-way exits from a dungeon when you have completed the Quest so you don't have to walk all the way back.

And the other related thing that I'm considering is removing the Hazard/Trap cards from the Treasure Deck. It always struck me as odd in the original version when you search a room for traps and discover there aren't any and then search for treasure and set off a trap. With the combined search it seems even more daft. But the question is do I just remove them, or treat them a Wandering Monsters cards?

[Kurgan]

For a quest session I tried combining the Secret Doors and Traps to a single search (though otherwise using NA rules) to try to save time. It didn't save that much time (after all, in a party of four heroes you can use those actions to quickly cover a room though a couple more treasure searches may remain), but there were no problems.

The inability to find traps by searching isn't that far fetched... the EQP & BQP have many traps that can't be found by searching or do instant hit damage when you trigger them with no chance to defend (like a hazard). These things may seem cheap and annoying but they've always been part of the game (as long as we admit that).

I did try playing the Trial once where I removed the Hazard cards (only) from the Treasure deck, to avoid confusion with the "there are no traps in this quest" statement and new players. But I didn't have to do that. Searching the room multiple times and finding nothing or finding something to me makes sense as well, as each character may have their own methods and find stuff that others missed... the Treasure chest might have a false bottom wherein the REAL loot is stored, etc.

It's true that the game mechanics are often simply arbitrary, but if you want to invent a plausible excuse for them, many are ready to hand. For instance people saying you should run out of arrows, when the typical number of arrows fired in a quest will be less than the typical archer would have carried into war in the middle ages. Or the range of projectile weapons (comparing the world record knife, axe throwing and archery scores to the heroes who are presumed to be exceptionally trained and remarkable individuals) not being realistic. Yes it's true that Plate Armor shouldn't slow you down, but you could say it's a special kind of armor that really is that heavy or perhaps it's really the way it fits and the wearer being not used to moving about in it. What we call "longswords" and "broadswords" may not correspond to real world weapons called by those names but whatever they are called, this is what those things are called in that world and how they function.

Yes, even a pistol crossbow should take two hands at the very least to load it (unless it has some kind of modern day "clip" in it that holds those bolts and doesn't need to be reloaded)... but then you could plausibly hold certain kinds of shields AND have a weapon in that hand as well.

Magic, well, is just magic. It can do whatever the author needs it to in this world (albeit he sets some rules and then follows them). Why would a Wizard not be able to wear armor or carry heavier weapons? Can't he used magic to give him the ability to use them? Is it just a matter of training or is he that much of a wimp (could he use additional magic to let him overcome those handicaps?). Maybe it is a personal code that prevents him using them, one so strong that even when the chips are down he won't violate it? (similar to ideas of certain other classes only being able to use certain types of weapons, but others being able to pick up any old thing and use it).

Why would a staff require two hands, when you could wield it like a spear in one with a shield in the other? If it's a really unwieldy and heavy staff, why does the Wizard have no problem using it? (maybe he has a magic spell that only gives him the skill/strength to carry something of that composition?).

I provided another perk to having a torch (why a torch? wouldn't the torch burn out unless it's a kit of torches? shouldn't it be a lantern? see this thing goes on forever) which is that while it is lit, you can ignore hazard cards you draw (rational: you can see better to spot these things before they go off while searching, but doesn't stop wandering monsters).

At the end of the day we're talking about a fantasy board game that is meant to evoke some of the tropes of faux-medieval sword and sorcery fiction we've seen in other places in a way that's simple and easy to get into for children. Trying to role play it and rationalize it into a historically realistic medieval combat simulator can be a complicated and exhausting task (but probably a game in itself for some people!).